Ryan Wolstat: If Valanciunas can

[ontnut]

we suddenly expect our coach to be Popovich-level (who btw, benched Duncan for a pretty important possession in the playoffs - was that also fire-worthy?) and never make mistakes? /end rant.

What Pop did was a strategic offense/defense play in a NBA finals game that obviously didn't pay off. The problem I have with not playing JV in the fourth is that this is a regular season game with very little on the line. The regular season is where JV has to learn what to do and not to do in late game scenarios and by telling him that he can't be trusted when he's in his third year in the league, we either have to conclude that JV might never get there or Casey just prefers the security of a vet versus making younger players better.

I get that point. I was just using it as an example that coaches of all levels make mistakes, in crucial parts of the game, and not all fan bases react like we do. I'd like to see JV get some run in the 4th too. But if you were holding down a job, with security for only a few years and it is based on performance...you'd probably go with the vets you know you can trust more, to go after as many wins as possible, too. We know big men take longer to develop. Not many big men at JV's age are playing big roles in the 4th Q either, I suspect. I don't want to come off as a Casey apologist - I dislike his style in many ways, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he has a plan and is following through on it. Would I rather see JV than GV in the 4th? Yeah probably. I'd also like to see JV featured heavily on offense especially early in the game - and for it to not completely be abandoned in the 3rd/4th, but I'm not the coach, and I don't have millions of dollars and my family's lifestyle on the line either. If he feels he can win with Patterson and Amir, and we have a 29-15 record, then really, who are we to argue? If we had a 15-29 record then yeah...fire Casey.

[ontnut]

we suddenly expect our coach to be Popovich-level (who btw, benched Duncan for a pretty important possession in the playoffs - was that also fire-worthy?) and never make mistakes? /end rant.

What Pop did was a strategic offense/defense play in a NBA finals game that obviously didn't pay off. The problem I have with not playing JV in the fourth is that this is a regular season game with very little on the line. The regular season is where JV has to learn what to do and not to do in late game scenarios and by telling him that he can't be trusted when he's in his third year in the league, we either have to conclude that JV might never get there or Casey just prefers the security of a vet versus making younger players better.

Right, because JV doesn't get any playing time during the game to work out his defensive deficiencies? You don't think the Raps coaching staff isn't going through his hours of game tape with him and sportsview data with the tracking system they internally developed of where he should be in certain offensive scenarios in order to help him increase his read/react abilities?

This is the real world, where there are no absolutes like "it's either Casey or JV" or "he can only learn if he plays in the 4th".

Casey has to weigh the risks vs the rewards of having JV play in the 4th every game based upon a multitude of factors and because it is such a dynamic game, anyone can be critical of any coaches decisions after the known outcome of those decisions.

Agreed. JV has time to show off what he can do, and apparently it's not enough to yet instill confidence in the coaching staff that he will bring it 100% every possession down the stretch, and I've found this to be true just by watching JV. He takes possessions off, doesn't always run back on defense as hard as he could/should, doesn't always get rebounds like the beast he can be, doesn't always rotate well etc. He also has a tendency to let his emotions get the best of him, especially when he gets called for those ticky tack fouls - which is another issue - he fouls a lot at random occassions, which is not something you especially want in the 4th. There are reasons I'm sure, what they are we don't know. But the good news is the kid has time to develop, and it doesn't look like the core is going anywhere.

[Boogie_Smooth]

Casey has to weigh the risks vs the rewards of having JV play in the 4th every game based upon a multitude of factors and because it is such a dynamic game, anyone can be critical of any coaches decisions after the known outcome of those decisions.

I agree with everything that you've said, but I guess the difference is from my vantage point I just don't see the risks of playing a young player that has shown that he can play effectively in 3 quarters in the 4th where he can learn to make better decisions and apply what he has learned. Just like any profession you won't really understand what to do unless you actually do it, and I really feel like Casey might be making decisions so we can win games now but might stunt the growth of our younger players.

[Boogie_Smooth]

we suddenly expect our coach to be Popovich-level (who btw, benched Duncan for a pretty important possession in the playoffs - was that also fire-worthy?) and never make mistakes? /end rant.

What Pop did was a strategic offense/defense play in a NBA finals game that obviously didn't pay off. The problem I have with not playing JV in the fourth is that this is a regular season game with very little on the line. The regular season is where JV has to learn what to do and not to do in late game scenarios and by telling him that he can't be trusted when he's in his third year in the league, we either have to conclude that JV might never get there or Casey just prefers the security of a vet versus making younger players better.

But if you were holding down a job, with security for only a few years and it is based on performance...you'd probably go with the vets you know you can trust more, to go after as many wins as possible, too. We know big men take longer to develop. Not many big men at JV's age are playing big roles in the 4th Q either, I suspect. I don't want to come off as a Casey apologist - I dislike his style in many ways, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he has a plan and is following through on it. Would I rather see JV than GV in the 4th? Yeah probably. I'd also like to see JV featured heavily on offense especially early in the game - and for it to not completely be abandoned in the 3rd/4th, but I'm not the coach, and I don't have millions of dollars and my family's lifestyle on the line either. If he feels he can win with Patterson and Amir, and we have a 29-15 record, then really, who are we to argue? If we had a 15-29 record then yeah...fire Casey.

That's true, I try not to pay too much attention to our record since the East is so terrible. I think Raptor fans in general should stop paying so much attention to our record since it tends to make us think that we are better then we are. If we were in the West we would be having a very different conversation.

[ontnut]

Thats bc both Ed and Acy are bad...both of them been bonuce around...you are saying like both are all stars which is not true

Casey has been terrible at developing our prospects. Davis and Acy gone because they rode the pine, Ross is looking like crap and barely developed and Jonas is like a dog in a cage. I dont see Bruno or Bebe developing into something useful under Casey. Everyone else on the team that plays developed elsewhere not under Casey. Casey likes to ride vets, hell or high water.

Well, maybe they would be better today if they were developed better in the past? I think you kinda proving his point here.

I recall that Patterson was not heavily played in previous years, on previous teams, but has developed and blossomed under Casey. What about that? He's playing the most MPG of his career and he's only 25, which could be seen as a late blooming prospect (only 4 years played in the L)

Maybe those players are just not that good and we overrate our ex-players.
Acy spent 1 year in Toronto as a 37th overall pick, I don't think anyone expected him to be good, or to be heavily featured or developed. I don't think you can blame 1 year "of not developing" for how not good he is. He's putting up worse Per36 stats in NY two years after his rookie season in Toronto. He's playing 21 minutes a game for the league worst NYK. What does that tell you? If that tells you that Casey is at fault for not turning him into a NBA starter, well...you're wrong.

Ed Davis is the exact same story. He's putting up the same per 36 this year on one of the league's worst teams, and is still only getting 24 minutes of run, the exact same amount as his two seasons in Toronto.

Stop pining over mediocre players and blaming their mediocrity solely on the coaching staff. It's like complaining about shooting at and losing a 5 point buck, blaming your rifle for the lack of success. Maybe the shooter (coach) is bad, but maybe the shooter aimed perfectly on the bullseye (developed his players the best one could), and the rifle did it's job (the player worked hard). Maybe it's just that the bullet should've been bigger and better than a .22lr (the player is simply not good enough for the job you are presented with whether that is starting, or being a 6th/7th man)

[orbesnet]

I think if we were in the West there would be more scrutiny of DC's choices. Since it appears that we're doing well on pace for a record season who's going to really get on DC other then us fans?

It must be speed that DC is after but obviously he doesn't see that we'll need every minute of JV in the playoffs... blerg.

[Swag]

Casey coaches like his job is on the line. Bro you just signed a 3 year extention, you cam afford to play JV and allow the franchise's future starting center (for many years to come) to play through mistakes.

[UcanUwill]

I recall that Patterson was not heavily played in previous years, on previous teams, but has developed and blossomed under Casey. What about that? He's playing the most MPG of his career and he's only 25, which could be seen as a late blooming prospect (only 4 years played in the L)

Maybe those players are just not that good and we overrate our ex-players.

Patterson blossomed, if you can call it blossoming, in Houston when he developed a 3 point range. He came here as finished product, pretty much. And he was good from the get go, not like he actually developed a lot during his time in Toronto.

I completely understand that those prospects might not be that good to begin with, but we will never know. We do not know how they would have turned out if they were drafted by other teams. All we know, is that not a single young Raptors player turned into something, as of yet.

[aw8]

Casey coaches like his job is on the line. Bro you just signed a 3 year extention, you cam afford to play JV and allow the franchise's future starting center (for many years to come) to play through mistakes.

I thought it was 2 years with team option for third? But he probably knows that he is not the long term coach for this team, thus he is trying to pad his win stats for another coaching gig.

[ontnut]

What Pop did was a strategic offense/defense play in a NBA finals game that obviously didn't pay off. The problem I have with not playing JV in the fourth is that this is a regular season game with very little on the line. The regular season is where JV has to learn what to do and not to do in late game scenarios and by telling him that he can't be trusted when he's in his third year in the league, we either have to conclude that JV might never get there or Casey just prefers the security of a vet versus making younger players better.

But if you were holding down a job, with security for only a few years and it is based on performance...you'd probably go with the vets you know you can trust more, to go after as many wins as possible, too. We know big men take longer to develop. Not many big men at JV's age are playing big roles in the 4th Q either, I suspect. I don't want to come off as a Casey apologist - I dislike his style in many ways, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he has a plan and is following through on it. Would I rather see JV than GV in the 4th? Yeah probably. I'd also like to see JV featured heavily on offense especially early in the game - and for it to not completely be abandoned in the 3rd/4th, but I'm not the coach, and I don't have millions of dollars and my family's lifestyle on the line either. If he feels he can win with Patterson and Amir, and we have a 29-15 record, then really, who are we to argue? If we had a 15-29 record then yeah...fire Casey.

That's true, I try not to pay too much attention to our record since the East is so terrible. I think Raptor fans in general should stop paying so much attention to our record since it tends to make us think that we are better then we are. If we were in the West we would be having a very different conversation.

Right, that's your perogative to compare us to the rest of the league. But we're in the East, and will be for the forseeable future, so that's really what we are going to have to compare ourselves to, for the most part.

We also have a very healthy record against the West. We're 9-7 against the West, with a few games we should've won against the Pelicans/Trailblazers etc. We could easily be 10-6 or better. 9-7 is a 56% Win %, which puts us tied with Phoenix for 8th, just under SA. 10-6 record would be 62.5%, which is basically SA's record. If we had won the two games vs. NO and POR that we should've and were 11-5, That's 69%, putting us in the 4-5 spot with LA and Houston. Now of course this is all fantasy and extrapolation, and if we had to play double the number of games vs. the West, I'm not sure we'd be able to hold a 60% win percentage, but the point is that our record is not objectively terrible vs. the West either right now. Our record is our record and is ultiamtely a reflection of how good we are, no?

We'd at least be competitive, which is certainly more than we could say for previous seasons. I'm not looking at the record as say, oh we have a 66% winning record, we're amazing; but rather, we're well above .500 with some wins against good teams. We're in a better position than we have ever been. Teams are worried about us. Sure there's more to sports than just W-L records, like championships. But if you start down that line, using championships as the sole gauge of if a team is doing well, then apparently only a select few teams have ever done anything right in the NBA.

[ontnut]

Casey coaches like his job is on the line. Bro you just signed a 3 year extention, you cam afford to play JV and allow the franchise's future starting center (for many years to come) to play through mistakes.

Right. He can still be fired though, yes he'll make his money on the contract but he won't get another HC job if suddenly we lose 30 games. I'm obviously not saying playing JV in the 4th will cause us to lose that many games, I'm just using a hyperbole-filled example to show that his job IS still on the line. Maybe not the current contract, but any futher job he wants in the NBA is going to largely be determined by his performance here.

[Tacoma]

You mean the one who single-handedly carried us to a 29-15 record thus far? ^

What does Lowry have to do with this?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I remember when people on here use to argue that Jay Trriano was qualified as a NBA coach, they sighted how he ran the practice squad for team USA, so his peers had validated him. Jay hasn't hasn't seen a head coaching job since we fired him.

Pointing to our record as validation of Casay's coaching talent is a wrong-headed aproach. If I said our record was proof that T,Ross is a top-tier NBA small forward, that would sound stupid... However it works with Casey?

Casey is good at managing his defense, that's what made him a great assistant coach. I just don't think his knowing half the floor translates into him being a great head coach. In a few years from now I feel like we will look back, and there won't be any argument over Casey's talent to coach, just like there is no longer an argumnet over Triano's ability any more.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

I agree with everything that you've said, but I guess the difference is from my vantage point I just don't see the risks of playing a young player that has shown that he can play effectively in 3 quarters in the 4th where he can learn to make better decisions and apply what he has learned. Just like any profession you won't really understand what to do unless you actually do it, and I really feel like Casey might be making decisions so we can win games now but might stunt the growth of our younger players.

The risks are clearly defined as one of the top jobs of an NBA coach is managing player Egos:

1. Leaving him in to develop at the risk of sacrificing Ws comes with the price tag of potentially losing some of your vets who want to win now.
2. Leaving him in to learn defense while he doesn't get offensive touches in the fourth comes with a price tag of JV getting ticked off at his teammates.
3. Leaving him also changes the late game offense that can be run as he is still very hesitant to pull the trigger on his jumper. Teams have scouted him on this so they can drop back off the P&Rs that involve him and clog the lane for the guards attempting to find driving lanes.
4. Taking him out against bigger lineups runs the risk of PPat and Amir getting pushed under their own basket more often and the opposing team getting additional second chance opportunities.

GMs and owners have pretty much drawn the line in the sand in regards to their coaches. It's a win first league and everything else is second so I'm not sure how you can fault Casey for following the huge precedence that has been set league wide when it comes to it's coaches.

[ontnut]

I recall that Patterson was not heavily played in previous years, on previous teams, but has developed and blossomed under Casey. What about that? He's playing the most MPG of his career and he's only 25, which could be seen as a late blooming prospect (only 4 years played in the L)

Maybe those players are just not that good and we overrate our ex-players.

Patterson blossomed, if you can call it blossoming, in Houston when he developed a 3 point range. He came here as finished product, pretty much. And he was good from the get go, not like he actually developed a lot during his time in Toronto.

I completely understand that those prospects might not be that good to begin with, but we will never know. We do not know how they would have turned out if they were drafted by other teams. All we know, is that not a single young Raptors player turned into something, as of yet.

I wonder, what is the definition of "turning into something"? Is it reaching a certain statistical level? Is it reaching what you envision his ceilling to be? Is it reaching pre-draft expectations? The fact of the matter is, young players can blossom, or they can bust. Every draft shows this. I don't think it's necessarily the coach's fault that certain players never reach what we believe to be their potential. Ross is a super leaper, but what else about his attributes makes you believe that he should be better than he is now? He's afraid of any contact, he's not strong at all so he has a hard time fighting through any screens, or rebounding, he's not much of a dribbler or a facilitator, and he's never really shown any of these traits in previous years at UConn, or elsewhere I presume. So if his billing was as a high-flying player who could hit the occassional 3 and play passable defence at times, what specifically is "wrong" with how he has been developed by Casey? I guess that's what my question always is, whenever someone decries Casey's ability to develop players. Maybe he's using them exactly as how they shown him they can play. Maybe that's the case with JV at this point. JV's per36 numbers have been improving, slowly, every year since his first. He's 22 and playing 26mpg, down from 28mpg last year. SVG is playing a 21 year old Drummond 29mpg, down from 33mpg last year, and that's on a "crappy" Detroit team with basically noone behind him either.

[Dalek]

The biggest issue I have with this team is that Casey and Masai both talk about how this is a developing team and that the focus is on the future. At the same time, they choose to limit the true learning opportunities in favour of getting wins. I think it is a half-hearted approach to player development especially when we have a historically poor division which removes the need to win absolutely every game.

Do we need Amir Johnson to play most of the fourth quarter to secure a win against a bottom feeder when we are 10 games up on Brooklyn? Especially when Johnson was a gametime decision to begin with and JV was having an impressive game.

The positive was that Ross got an opportunity to play in the fourth, which shows some willingness to play through the tough parts. JV also had some run in the fourth against Philly but they will need to build up his minutes. He has been playing much better over January both on defense and offense.

Casey has a tough love approach I guess. We should be more like Milwaukee who is playing their young guys in crunch-time situations so that they can experience it and hopefully gain some confidence.

[youngtea]

I wonder if Raptor fans think they know more about professionals that take their jobs seriously. JV has a weakness that we've all season and that's his defense. If he fixes that I don't see why he wouldn't be playing 35+ minutes.

many opponents, but Valanciunas consistently dominates the Pistons and wasn’t just doing it with his offence in this one. Detroit players scored on just 7-of-17 attempts at the rim on Valanciunas (41%) which is an excellent mark. They went 4-for-10 against Johnson, 3-for-6 against Patterson and 3-for-3 against Tyler Hansbrough, who had been doing a nice job protecting the rim before this one). Valanciunas had been Toronto’s most efficient scorer and one of its best defenders. Since Greg Monroe was on the floor, the excuse of no big being out there which has been a fine justification for Valanciunas sitting in the past does not apply.

lol. reading.

The concern with Jonas is not defense at the rim. It's on pick and rolls and helping on the roll.

“It’s more so staying with my man, impacting the ball but realizing I have to get back to my man. JV, when he’s in screen-and-rolls, [I have to] help quickly and recover out to my [man], because he pretty much [stays closer to the rim] all of the time. So it’s an adjustment.

lol when trying to be a jackass goes wrong.

[Nils_the_Clean]

It might be more discussion-worthy had we lost. It's funny that the players don't seem to have any ego about who plays when and who gets touches on this team, but the media and fans all seem to think these are crucial issues.

"But we won" is the most tired, pathetic excuse of an argument to defend every stupid decision/play this team makes.

Explain.

Winning is the single most unequivocally important part of any competitive game.

I agree that Val should have played in the 4th, but explain to us why refuting criticisms by pointing to the fact the team won the game in-spite of ostensible errors is a bad argument.

Actually, it's the only argument that makes sense.

ADDENDA:

I'm not a fan of Casey either.

[omar36]

I agree with wolstat, JV needs to learn to play the 4th.
I understand there will be games we will lose because of him and I'm okay with it cause it will help in the long term

Cone on Casey, stop worrying bout yourself and help the team progress

[OakleyDokely]

I have more of a problem with the lack of minutes JJ gets compared to Val.

Val's still a young guy and prone to breakdowns defensively, so I can see why Casey would lean more on vets down the stretch of games. But JJ is one the Raps most efficient players at both ends and he still gets nailed to the bench.