JV on pace to do what only 8 centers have done

[Arman_tanzarian]

Good god the same posters discussing the same thing in here every day with the exact same point made over and over again. Here is an idea, let's wait and see how this whole JV-Casey fiasco plays out?

[Deadpool Raptor]

Now this might take heat, but the reason why he's got such a high per is because he's on such a short leash.

[Volcano]

Please tell me more about myself, its makes for good fodder on an anonymous msg board.

I was suggesting that I work, and didnt reference anyone other than you or I, but again I understand the leap youre trying to make about this being an affront on other posters.

You suggested that employment would stop someone from having a discussion, mainly yourself. Plenty of employed people on here don't back down from discussions and come back to them outside of work hours. Employment has zero to do with someone participating in a discussion board where your posts are conveniently kept exactly where they were when you left.

This may be the worst response ive ever gotten hah. Ive got alot of them.

Some ppl have different jobs, where work takes priority over participating on an anonymous msg board.

But youre right it has zero to do with my situation based on all the knowledge you have about me and my career.

Who cares if people reply/continue a discussion really. People have lives. Not everyone is a realgm addict..right?

Now this might take heat, but the reason why he's got such a high per is because he's on such a short leash.

PER is like an accumulation of boxscore stats or something. A lot of big men who are on finishing ends of plays have high PER, but they're not the ones creating their own shots. I dunno if JV's per minute stats would regress with a few more minutes.

[Kabookalu]

Except no one's asking JV to be a focal point of offense. All that is being asked to for this team to have a balanced attack instead of being purely perimeter based...this doesn't require a radical reworking of the offensive scheme. Post up JV a couple extra times a game....now that Vasquez is starting, have him run a few PnR with Amir and Jonas.
Lack of creativity from this coach will always be a glass ceiling for this team.

Do you think posting Jonas up a couple more times a game will move us up in the win column?

[Undefeated]

I was using NBA stats as well, looking at the team stats but from January 1st. You are right, his problems come from 15 feet and out, which from the eye test are made of attempts off the pick and roll where he sits back and doesn't really get up on the driving player. I'm really not sure how we would alleviate that though. As much as we harp on the weight with him, he has become a much better rim protector and rebounder because of it.

I've wrote this before, but Icing would tremendously alleviate putting JV into precarious situations where he's unable to stop the ballhandler and his man. What ICE defense does is that JV wouldn't be put in position where he has to protect against penetration and the pullup jumper when he's dropping back against the ballhandler using the screen because the baseline drive would be cut off with JV plugging the driving lane and it leverages his ability to erase shots at the rim since baseline drives are extremely difficult to finish with no clean angle of the backboard and the ballhandler has a tight confinement of space to maneuver making his options limited. Essentially, the only shot conceded is the pullup jumper. The less options the ballhandler the has, the greater the chance the defense has of making a stop. JV doesn't have the mobility to contain the dribble when he ballhandler comes off of the screen and if his man can roll/pop (Horford) he has too much ground to cover that he can't effectively do under this scheme.

But I think the benefit of ICE defense is that it shortens the rotations not having to cover as much ground for everyone because in this scheme a third defender has to rotate all the way over to the strongside to stop the roll man from catching the ball or for a jumper off of a PnP action versus being on the helpside line in ICE where the ball is funnelled to the sideline and the options are much more limited for the ballhandler with the baseline pass being the best pass. If they try to pass out of the trap, the flight of the pass is longer and allows the defender to recover where as the Raptors are always in a scramble when they allow the ballhandler to use the screen.

[vini_vidi_vici]

except when you misinterpret stats, base your 100% of your opinion on them and have no perception within the context of the game

So you assume I base 100% of my opinion on them.

So you assume I have no perception within the context of the game.

And I misinterpret stats.

Thats fair, thats your opinion. Im not sure you refuted anything I said though.

I meant people misinterpret stats. You said: "You know whats 100% true, statistics." The problem with that statement is that humans are flawed and we're the ones who interpret those stats. Pretty easy to connect the dots.

But now that you mention it, yeah, you're way too much of a stats-lover. Dude, do you even have any posts that have zero implications towards statistics? Even if you do..some other guy will be like, "where are the stats? VVV?". Heck, you are probably rolling your eyes at the "100%" I wrote..and thinking, "it's 98.219852% man!".

You're hassling Clementine because he wrote that Jonas has the potential to be an inside presence and that we need something like that to go anywhere. Both are true..all successful teams have a strong paint presence whether it's defensively/offensively. You need a stat for that? Jonas does have potential..that's why we drafted him and are developing him. How the hell do you want him to prove that? With stats?

I remember a few years ago someone posted that Durant had bad advanced metrics in his first and/or 2nd season and written him off as a bust because of that..was that you? I think he had the worst +/- on his team.

So stats are 100% true then? well said.

Does it matter how often I reference stats? This is your issue. Again attack the messenger, not the message defense.

All I asked was for him to prove his conjecture, infact all I said was 2 words (prove that), if thats harassment, we have very different definitions I guess, and thats fair too. Youre right lets all throw out supposition because no one should have to prove anything, and if I do refute things with data, I should be ostracized for it and told who I am, and what I do.

When someone throws out the narrative, you cant win/compete/etc.. without _____, id expect a little more then opinion, but maybe thats just me? I guess its the poker background, "when you sense deceit, show your receipts".

I never wrote anything about Durant in his early years as being a bust, and even if I did it was 08-09 (his second year), why would I be held to some 100% correct standard. Ive admitted im wrong in numerous threads, this portrayal of me is your own.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Im going to sleep. Hope youre all okay with that?

Ill probably be working/travelling alot this weekend/next week, and thus not able to post. I hope thats okay too.

Youre welcome to look up all the daily papers I did here for 3-4 years as reference of non-related stats threads I started/posted in. Theres probably a good ~2K posts.

Take care guys, sorry UD for evidently derailing this thread. Get it back on track.

[Clementine9]

Edit: Funny how im looked at to disprove/approve everything, yes its resistance that prevents me from looking up other ppls narratives. I should look up everything for everyone should they disagree with me, seems logical.

You're not. You've never offered the board anything that can't be found in a database. But when you have a stat that says this line-up plays better than this line-up, therefore we should do x, there is a debate to be had. The debate when it comes to Jonas is regarding what he needs to maximize potential, and what to do about his limitations. That's why I don't reject the stats, the stats tell us what the limitations are. The stats don't always say WHY those limitations exist. That's what a discussion is for yet somehow saying the negative won't always be a negative is wrong because we can't predict the future. Somehow that is a rejection of statistical evidence.

I can't PROVE the Jonas will ever have a better AST rate, but I can point to a declining one and look at games and see that there isn't a lot of opportunity for him to get assists. I don't want him to see the ball more in the post because the team thrives with him getting the ball in the post, but because I think it would be beneficial for the team to be able to thrive with him in the post in the future. They have the perimeter oriented offense down quite well, where he plays little role offensively. But what happens when teams effectively adjust to that in a 7 game series? If the team is going to have a big like Jonas, why not try to develop him to be just as reliable an option in close games as Demar or Kyle? That gives us versatility and I see nothing wrong with that. Again, I can't PROVE that it will be beneficial for that to be the case but I don't think I'm saying anything outlandish.

I've rarely actually disagreed with you, I've disagreed with your approach. Your approach stops at statistics when statistics are just a significant part of a bigger discussion that you almost never participate in. Then when people do, like me, you claim they're somehow dismissing statistical evidence of something.

If I was on here saying Jonas was a defensive juggernaut and the team looks better defensively with him on the floor then I guess we'd have a significant disagreement and one that could be shot down with stats alone. I'm not claiming anything the stats aren't saying, I'm just willing to take the discussion further and offer up ideas on why the stats are the way they are.

Jesus, you think way to much about someone whos indifferent towards you.

Ive offered nothing, fair enough thats your opinion.

And im not willing to take the discussion further? Sounds legit, but again your opinion.

Despite that, you rarely disagree with me? Okay then.

We are developing JV, just not at your pace/expectations. Most of what youre saying is a strawman.

Again I never said you dismiss things statistically, you did, I quoted it twice ("because of context", im paraphrasing).

No because youre not saying that (JV isnt a defensive juggernaut), doesnt make you impartial, you understand this right?

Saying there's context isn't a dismissal of stats. It's saying that it's not cut and dry that a bad statistic means you are a bad player or have some insurmountable problem. It also doesn't always pave the way for a clear decision. For example, when factoring in something like player development and what people think roles should be and at what times. The context is simply the why of that stat, not saying that the stat is wrong because of context. I mean of course you're paraphrasing, because I haven't actually rejected any stats because of "context."

And going by stats doesn't make you impartial either, I fail to see your point. I am totally not impartial. I want to see the team and its players do well. That's a bias right off the bat. I will look to positives when I can and address the reality of the negatives whenever I have to. But never will I say that the numbers aren't true.

[Clementine9]

I was using NBA stats as well, looking at the team stats but from January 1st. You are right, his problems come from 15 feet and out, which from the eye test are made of attempts off the pick and roll where he sits back and doesn't really get up on the driving player. I'm really not sure how we would alleviate that though. As much as we harp on the weight with him, he has become a much better rim protector and rebounder because of it.

I've wrote this before, but Icing would tremendously alleviate putting JV into precarious situations where he's unable to stop the ballhandler and his man. What ICE defense does is that JV wouldn't be put in position where he has to protect against penetration and the pullup jumper when he's dropping back against the ballhandler using the screen because the baseline drive would be cut off with JV plugging the driving lane and it leverages his ability to erase shots at the rim since baseline drives are extremely difficult to finish with no clean angle of the backboard and the ballhandler has a tight confinement of space to maneuver making his options limited. Essentially, the only shot conceded is the pullup jumper. The less options the ballhandler the has, the greater the chance the defense has of making a stop. JV doesn't have the mobility to contain the dribble when he ballhandler comes off of the screen and if his man can roll/pop (Horford) he has too much ground to cover that he can't effectively do under this scheme.

But I think the benefit of ICE defense is that it shortens the rotations not having to cover as much ground for everyone because in this scheme a third defender has to rotate all the way over to the strongside to stop the roll man from catching the ball or for a jumper off of a PnP action versus being on the helpside line in ICE where the ball is funnelled to the sideline and the options are much more limited for the ballhandler with the baseline pass being the best pass. If they try to pass out of the trap, the flight of the pass is longer and allows the defender to recover where as the Raptors are always in a scramble when they allow the ballhandler to use the screen.

You get in touch with Casey yet?

Of course the question is whether or not you change the scheme for a single player who would seem to benefit the most from it. Or do you just keep it the way it is and change that player? OR is it beneficial for everyone.

[Undefeated]

It's beneficial for everyone. Addressed that at the end there lol. Of course the drawback is that they likely won't generate as many turnovers which is what Casey wants it seems.

[Kabookalu]

You get in touch with Casey yet?

Of course the question is whether or not you change the scheme for a single player who would seem to benefit the most from it. Or do you just keep it the way it is and change that player? OR is it beneficial for everyone.

I think it'd be beneficial to ICE regardless of who it benefits. From my understanding Ice funnels players to settle for mid range jumpers, the least efficient shot in basketball.

I don't understand the full context of our defensive schemes, but it seems to rely a lot on athleticism, and that if everything goes well then we'd be able to successfully shut the other team down. As I see it our defense is supposed to shut out every avenue of attack for the opposition, whereas Ice encourages the other team into taking a specific kind of shot. The problem with our defense is that it relies so much on synchronization. If one person isn't doing his job then everything else falls apart. There's no middle ground of success; it's either we play awesome defense or terrible defense.

As far as I know it.

[Volcano]

So stats are 100% true then? well said.

Does it matter how often I reference stats? This is your issue. Again attack the messenger, not the message defense.

All I asked was for him to prove his conjecture, infact all I said was 2 words (prove that), if thats harassment, we have very different definitions I guess, and thats fair too. Youre right lets all throw out supposition because no one should have to prove anything, and if I do refute things with data, I should be ostracized for it and told who I am, and what I do.

When someone throws out the narrative, you cant win/compete/etc.. without _____, id expect a little more then opinion, but maybe thats just me? I guess its the poker background, "when you sense deceit, show your receipts".

I never wrote anything about Durant in his early years as being a bust, and even if I did it was 08-09 (his second year), why would I be held to some 100% correct standard. Ive admitted im wrong in numerous threads, this portrayal of me is your own.

are you trying to tell me you were just saying a random fact with no other implications? what was the point of saying stats are 100% true. You only said two words to him? Looks like to me you continued pressing him multiple times..or did you think you'd get a pleasant reaction from him for each of your responses? The way I saw his post..it seemed like a general observation/comment with truth to it. I don't think it required proof at all.

Maybe my retorts weren't very nice, but it's not like you aren't prone to nitpicking or associate yourself to statistics (as well as other people associating you to it) more than the average poster (no, I'm not gonna prove it or provide stats to back it up). Whether you're right or wrong, I don't know, but I kind of feel like there's an apparent flaw in the "messenger's" approach giving a consistent flaw in the message. There's a separation between the understanding of connotation/implied meaning/human factors vs taking things literally/being prone to stats and hard cold facts. The way you portray yourself feels slightly savant-like where you're more sensitive to numbers and have a weaker understanding socially. Kind of like those engineers in prestigious schools with Aspergers (not a bad thing, mind you). I'm probably just imagining things.

The last comment was rhetorical.

PS. I didn't write the above well, so take the general meaning of my post

[Clementine9]

You get in touch with Casey yet?

Of course the question is whether or not you change the scheme for a single player who would seem to benefit the most from it. Or do you just keep it the way it is and change that player? OR is it beneficial for everyone.

I think it'd be beneficial to ICE regardless of who it benefits. From my understanding Ice funnels players to settle for mid range jumpers, the least efficient shot in basketball.

I don't understand the full context of our defensive schemes, but it seems to rely a lot on athleticism, and that if everything goes well then we'd be able to successfully shut the other team down. As I see it our defense is supposed to shut out every avenue of attack for the opposition, whereas Ice encourages the other team into taking a specific kind of shot. The problem with our defense is that it relies so much on synchronization. If one person isn't doing his job then everything else falls apart. There's no middle ground of success; it's either we play awesome defense or terrible defense.

As far as I know it.

That's how I understand it as well.

[Undefeated]

That's pretty much the basis of the scheme Casey employs allowing the ballhandler to get middle and the rotations has to be razor sharp. One mistimed rotation and the entire defense blows up. When everyone moves in concert the defense can generate deflections and turnovers because offenses aren't accustomed to defenders flying everywhere on the court. But this type of scheme is highly unsustainable. I find that guys are always late on their closeout; they closeout "hot" and get beat on the catch.

[Clementine9]

It's beneficial for everyone. Addressed that at the end there lol. Of course the drawback is that they likely won't generate as many turnovers which is what Casey wants it seems.

I guess I was thinking that covering more ground isn't necessarily bad, only when you have less mobile players.

From what I've heard and seen, I'm pro ICE.

[Undefeated]

I guess I was thinking that covering more ground isn't necessarily bad, only when you have less mobile players.

From what I've heard and seen, I'm pro ICE.

My bad for not being concise, but I meant they have more ground to cover on their recovery. I think I showed earlier in one of the other thread where PP on the weakside had to rotate all the way over to the strongside to help the helper rather than being on the typical helpside line down the middle of the lane. Guys are straying too far from their man and when the ball gets swung to their back they're always late.

[GoSu]

Stats praise Valanciunas.
Hero, nitrous, MVP- and GED_Education do not like what this thread provided.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Except no one's asking JV to be a focal point of offense. All that is being asked to for this team to have a balanced attack instead of being purely perimeter based...this doesn't require a radical reworking of the offensive scheme. Post up JV a couple extra times a game....now that Vasquez is starting, have him run a few PnR with Amir and Jonas.
Lack of creativity from this coach will always be a glass ceiling for this team.

Do you think posting Jonas up a couple more times a game will move us up in the win column?

It'll help us in the playoffs when defenses will be swarming all over lowry and demar. jv needs to be comfortable when he's asked to carry the offense in short bursts, especially in the 4th quarter.
If you're a chess player, you know to think a few moves ahead. Developing JV won't get u wins now but it will in the playoffs and in the seasons to come. Too many people around here play checkers though.

[Raps in 4]

Prove that.

Prove Jonas will always be a bad defender.

Completely stupid and useless comment.

His USG% says he's more than a garbage big, but less than a real focal point. He has great efficiency and doesn't turn the ball over a lot, he is a pretty good offensive rebounder. These are perfect building blocks for an inside presence. The only issue is his assist rate but there are perfectly explainable reasons for that.

So where did you prove this team isnt going anywhere without an inside presence?

This team isn't going anywhere as currently constructed. Talent is very much an issue. Unless we score a star in free agency or via trade, we won't be getting better. That leaves internal development, and the only player on this team with any significant potential is Jonas.

The point isn't so much that we need an inside presence, rather that we need Jonas to become a good player (which in his case would mean becoming an inside presence because that is where his natural strengths lie).

[Kabookalu]

It'll help us in the playoffs when defenses will be swarming all over lowry and demar. jv needs to be comfortable when he's asked to carry the offense in short bursts, especially in the 4th quarter.
If you're a chess player, you know to think a few moves ahead. Developing JV won't get u wins now but it will in the playoffs and in the seasons to come. Too many people around here play checkers though.

Giving Jonas more iso moves in the post is playing chess?