Revisiting Luol Deng -MERGED

[coldfish]

This thread isn't a hindsight discussion about the trade. Its about looking at Deng's impact on the team with the benefit of hindsight to diagnose Chicago's current issues.

Luol Deng had a reputation as a great defender yet when you watched him, he wasn't some lock down on ball defender. A lot of people could not reconcile this. Luol was the glue guy and I'll explain that term. Thibs defense requires people to trust each other and help each other. This requires a tremendous amount of energy. Off ball defenders have to help onto people and then other off ball defenders have to help onto the people who just came open. Its what Thibodeau refers to as "multiple efforts".

Deng used to be THE guy to do that. He would just run around from player to player making sure that everyone was covered and that every shot was contested. Beyond that, he was a quiet leader setting an example. If Luol could do it playing 40mpg, then everyone else could do it. You also saw him constantly talking to other players during time stoppages, which is something I see completely missing right now.

On offense, he wasn't a huge impact guy but people tend to forget the wrist. He was playing well and then had a tendon in his shooting wrist severely injured. He played through it but his shooting took a nose dive. In the season he was traded he was showing signs of improving and now his scoring efficiencies are up. It doesn't hurt at all that in Miami he is clearly a 3rd option, which is what his talents are fit for. When Rose was out and with Boozer sucking, Deng was often the #1 option in Chicago.

When Luol left, the team seemed to rally. It became an "us against the world" situation that you frequently see. A team loses a major player and continues to win but eventually it catches up to them. The back up QB who comes in and wins a few games but then gets exposed once opposing defenses figure him out. It took a while for Luol leaving for it to catch up to Chicago but I think it has.

So, who can replace Deng as the glue guy? Quite frankly, I think Butler is a better player. That said, he has such a huge burden already that I'm not sure he can be the run around the court all game long guy. He noticeably isn't doing that now despite knowing he is supposed to. Rose and Kirk aren't going to do it, obviously.

With all the talk about trades, I kind of think that the team needs to focus on defense, not offense. It would be interesting to see if the Bulls could get a super high energy wing defender to carry out Luol's old role. I don't have a name in mind but those types are usually cheap to trade for and pay. I would keep Dunleavey to be the ying (offense) to that guy's yang (defense).

It might be too late though. I'm not sure someone can learn the defense in the amount of time available.

[musiqsoulchild]

Kirk should really be that guy. And so should Noah.

The problem I dont think is leadership. The problem I think is too many deaf ears in the room.

For example, lets take Niko. How has his game evolved from Gm1 through Gm50? Except for cutting down on ridiculous And 1 fouls, his game has essentially been the same on the defensive end.

Same with Snell. And Gasol, a leader by default, doesnt lead by example.

Wheras Rose, just chose not to play defense for 40+ games. Thats criminal.

[Bandit King]

This team needs a good SF to win the champoinship. Is Kevin Durant available? Jeff Green would been great.

[Rerisen]

Butler is a different kind of defender than Deng, more of a straight up lockdown guy. He doesn't have Luol's natural awareness of help and recover, nor his size to help down in the post and bother bigs. But Jimmy is better for just shutting a top option down.

The problem with focusing on defense is we already have all our bigs minutes taken and that is where you will see the biggest gain on defense. Yet our bigs collection is no longer elite at defense. The best place to improve defense next would be PG, and obviously Derrick takes most of the minutes there.

You could upgrade some defensively by replacing Mike Dunleavy with a typical '3 and D' guy. That should really be the role of that starting position. A player like Ariza was last year, before he tanked on scoring on his new contract. But any good such player won't be had by just offering Tony Snell or such, it would likely take moving Taj and then you wonder if you are going sideways or even backwards.

[Mech Engineer]

It is diluted analysis to look at Deng or some other SF as the solution. The Bulls have what they need. Pau's impact on defense is the problem. Even when Boozer was bad....you had a healthy Taj/Noah to cover his lapses. And, even if Boozer was a bad one on one defender/undersized, he could move a little bit.

You had a #1 defense even after the Deng trade even with Jimmy supposedly hurt and off the street guys like DJ playing big minutes.

This is not a personnel problem on defense..it is attitude, knowledge, repitition, effort etc....And, the worst thing to happen is an all-star berth for Pau. Now, Thibs will play him more.

It is not Deng who is missed at all. I see Taj, Noah assuming Pau will move or get that rebound or cover a defender....and someone flys in.

It is how Thibs handles Pau's minutes which will determine the failure or success of the defense. It is not Derrick nor Jimmy or Taj or Noah or MDJ. Even if those guys fall off and make mistakes, they know the scheme with their muscle memory.

[Rerisen]

The luxury in 2011 was the Bulls had, in addition to Deng's team defense, *two* guys like Butler, in Brewer and lesser extent, Bogans. Both got in peoples grills defensively.

Then in the post they had two implacable post defenders in Asik and Kurt Thomas, to balance out the more active, help and PnR defense of Noah and Gibson.

Then it even had a fiesty backup PG defender in Watson, I'm not sure Kirk is even better than CJ anymore on defense. Beside the point anyway, since Brooks is more like the primary backup PG for us.

That team was just loaded defensively, though obviously lacked some on the other end. But because they had a true superstar in Rose, to at least depend on for emergency and high volume creating, they were able to tackle many types of opponents, where our current team seems to have an achilles vs athletic bigs, or any team that can pressure us in transition and early shot clock offense.

Even if this team found another wing defender, it would fall short of that team on defense.

[League Circles]

I agree with Mech Engineer. Frankly, I'm not so sure Pau isn't worse than Boozer for our defense. Yes, Pau actually contests shots well whereas Boozer ducked to make sure the opponent's shot was clean, but there seems to be one HUGE difference. Gasol rebounds well, numbers wise, but rebounds with his hands and length. He doesn't box out, at all. Boozer was excellent at boxing out - one of if not the best in the league. Sure seems like we're giving up a ton of 2nd chance points this year. If so, I blame that on the difference between Pau and Boozer in boxing out.

As for Luol, yes he was a great help defender. It's really not just about effort though. A lot of it is about length. Deng is as long as you're gonna find at that position. WAY longer than Butler who plays a ton of SF for us. Dunleavy is pretty damn long too but is slower and not a good jumper to contest.

Doug will probably be really good in that role with his length and hops though right? SMH.

Snell is the only guy with a prayer of becoming that on our roster now.

[Rerisen]

I agree with Mech Engineer. Frankly, I'm not so sure Pau isn't worse than Boozer for our defense. Yes, Pau actually contests shots well whereas Boozer ducked to make sure the opponent's shot was clean, but there seems to be one HUGE difference. Gasol rebounds well, numbers wise, but rebounds with his hands and length. He doesn't box out, at all.

To me the biggest difference is Boozer wasn't playing center, wasn't the last line of defense. Also of course Noah was 100%.

But even with Jo not at 100%, I think switching their roles against everyone but stretch 4s might gain us on defense.

Interesting Boozer used to get charged with stealing rebounds, but one of the reasons Pau's are up near career highs this year is he simply stands in the paint all game long, without much responsibility to help or hedge out on PnR.

Many of his rebounds are basically what they call generic team rebounds, that are not contested, that someone would grab regardless. But he's always the guy there. If Jo was back at center, you'd probably see some swapping in that trend.

[coldfish]

It is diluted analysis to look at Deng or some other SF as the solution. The Bulls have what they need. Pau's impact on defense is the problem. Even when Boozer was bad....you had a healthy Taj/Noah to cover his lapses. And, even if Boozer was a bad one on one defender/undersized, he could move a little bit.

You had a #1 defense even after the Deng trade even with Jimmy supposedly hurt and off the street guys like DJ playing big minutes.

This is not a personnel problem on defense..it is attitude, knowledge, repitition, effort etc....And, the worst thing to happen is an all-star berth for Pau. Now, Thibs will play him more.

It is not Deng who is missed at all. I see Taj, Noah assuming Pau will move or get that rebound or cover a defender....and someone flys in.

It is how Thibs handles Pau's minutes which will determine the failure or success of the defense. It is not Derrick nor Jimmy or Taj or Noah or MDJ. Even if those guys fall off and make mistakes, they know the scheme with their muscle memory.

My point is that the attitude and effort issues are direct result of not having Deng here as a leader and a glue guy to do the little things. The Bulls got through last year with a blatant "win one for the gipper" attitude but that only lasts so long.

I have seen many of the old vets you mentioned simply choosing not to do the right thing. I agree that they know what to do, but they simply aren't doing it for some reason.

I basically agree with you about the mechanics of what is going on. The team has the ability, knowledge and talent to execute and they just aren't doing it. I'm just noting that for years Thibs said that Luol's impact on the team was understated and underrated. From my perspective, it appears that he may have been right.

[RedBulls23]

Yeah, the issue isn't not having Deng...the issue is Noah isn't the last line of defense like he's been in years past. And obviously he's also not been close to his normal self.

[Chi town]

The issue isn't the lack of Deng and his hustle/leadership/glue. The issue is Rose doesn't play hard, shoot way too many 3s, and makes consistent silly turnovers. Noah has been hurt too.

I expect both to turn it on after the AS break.

[DRoseCantStop]

This team needs a good SF to win the champoinship. Is Kevin Durant available? Jeff Green would been great.

#KD2CHI

LEGGO

[GetBuLLish]

The root of our problem is the front court, Pau and Noah. They are soft, unathletic, and slow. They get dominated by opposing big men almost every other game, whether it be a big who can stretch the court or a big who can pound it inside. They are too slow to extend their defense to the perimeter and too weak to guard even semi-decent post up players (see Jordan Hill). And to top it off, they don't play well together and should barely ever be on the court at the same time.

Looking at them individually...

Pau is easily one of the worst defenders in the league. And he's playing the most important defensive position. On P&Rs, he will almost never come up to hedge, let alone switch onto guards. This is by design since Thibs knows Pau is way too slow to extend to the perimeter. So instead, Pau drops back on practically every single P&R. Often times, he will drop so far back that he practically backpedals to under the hoop, giving the ballhandler an uncontested 5 foot floater/layup. Post-up wise, he can often be backed down since he's very weak. And a quick move to the basket will usually leave him in the dust since he's so slow. Rebound-wise, while he seemingly puts up good numbers, he's a sub-par rebounder. He never boxes out, like ever. And he's way too slow to track down any loose balls. He relies completely on his length and the fact that he's usually sitting right under the hoop. More athletic, stronger players often can get multiple offensive rebounds even though Pau is seemingly right in position to get the board.

Noah is simply a shell of himself right now. Go watch some tape on him from last year. On P&Rs, he would often switch out onto guards and successfully force them into a tough, contested shot. He was incredible at this. This year, he has for the most part abandoned attempting this. When he has extended out to the perimeter, the ballhandler usually blows by him since his lateral quickness is almost completely gone. And when he does switch, it's basically an automatic basket for the offense. So instead, this year, he has adopted the Boozer/Pau P&R strategy described above, i.e., sagging all the way into the paint and leaving his teammate on a 2v1 island. This is probably the biggest different from last year to this year and its impact is tremendous. A good illustration of the change in athleticism from last year is last night's final basket by Bledsoe. In a P&R, Noah sags back into the paint (probably would not have done that last year). Bledsoe decides to take it right to the chest of Noah. Last year, Noah would have taken the bump and then rejected Bledsoe's shot or at the very least contested it. This year? He takes the slight bump, loses balance and is unable to even jump off the ground, giving Bledsoe an uncontested layup. Rebounding wise, because of his lost athleticism, opposing players on a nightly basis will simply jump over him and usually tip the ball to a teammate (see Draymond Green game-tying tip in over Noah as Noah helplessly stays ground-bound).

And compounding all of Noah's individual problems is that he's playing out of position.

This, in a nutshell, is the heart of the problem. It's not the point guard defense. It's not the wing defense. It's the fact that opposing teams know that we have one of the least athletic, slowest, weakest, and least intimidating front courts in the entire league. They know they can do whatever they want with them. P&R? They know they'll get little to no resistance (whereas last year, Noah and Taj combined to be the most vicious, disruptive duo in the league in defending P&R). Post-up? No problem. Rebounding? Just crash the offensive glass and watch the second opportunities pour in.

end rant.

[Mech Engineer]

It is diluted analysis to look at Deng or some other SF as the solution. The Bulls have what they need. Pau's impact on defense is the problem. Even when Boozer was bad....you had a healthy Taj/Noah to cover his lapses. And, even if Boozer was a bad one on one defender/undersized, he could move a little bit.

You had a #1 defense even after the Deng trade even with Jimmy supposedly hurt and off the street guys like DJ playing big minutes.

This is not a personnel problem on defense..it is attitude, knowledge, repitition, effort etc....And, the worst thing to happen is an all-star berth for Pau. Now, Thibs will play him more.

It is not Deng who is missed at all. I see Taj, Noah assuming Pau will move or get that rebound or cover a defender....and someone flys in.

It is how Thibs handles Pau's minutes which will determine the failure or success of the defense. It is not Derrick nor Jimmy or Taj or Noah or MDJ. Even if those guys fall off and make mistakes, they know the scheme with their muscle memory.

My point is that the attitude and effort issues are direct result of not having Deng here as a leader and a glue guy to do the little things. The Bulls got through last year with a blatant "win one for the gipper" attitude but that only lasts so long.

I have seen many of the old vets you mentioned simply choosing not to do the right thing. I agree that they know what to do, but they simply aren't doing it for some reason.

I basically agree with you about the mechanics of what is going on. The team has the ability, knowledge and talent to execute and they just aren't doing it. I'm just noting that for years Thibs said that Luol's impact on the team was understated and underrated. From my perspective, it appears that he may have been right.

Maybe you are right in the sense...from a defensive leadership POV Deng would have stepped up and relayed Thibs's message and stressed the importance of hard practices.

The difference between Pau and Boozer is this... Boozer was trying to fit in and was happy to be in a big city/high profile atmosphere. He was ready to be led even if he had physical defeciencies.

Pau has been in LA and has won championships. It is a tougher task to break his habits, attitude. I'm not sure even if Deng could have done anything because Noah/Taj are kind of Deng's extensions.

I just feel Pau has his own philosophy compared to fitting in like Boozer. That said, Deng probably could have better impact as a SF in a lineup with Pau/Noah instead of Mirotic.

I think the best acquisition the Bulls can make in the offseason us somehow get Deng for MLE. He is the perfect addition to this roster.

[Rerisen]

Maybe you are right in the sense...from a defensive leadership POV Deng would have stepped up and relayed Thibs's message and stressed the importance of hard practices.

Deng's presence was not going to overrule Jen, nor the FO, who is backing Jen.

To the extent effort and hard work is a problem for this team, and its far from the whole problem, the issue goes right to the core of the turbulence in the organization coming down from the top, to the FO feuding with the coach about the importance of the season, how hard the player's should work, and not getting on the same page as far as how much to push the pedal down, vs trying to keep the player's healthy for the playoffs.

[Mech Engineer]

Maybe you are right in the sense...from a defensive leadership POV Deng would have stepped up and relayed Thibs's message and stressed the importance of hard practices.

Deng's presence was not going to overrule Jen, nor the FO, who is backing Jen.

To the extent effort and hard work is a problem for this team, and its far from the whole problem, the issue goes right to the core of the turbulence in the organization coming down from the top, to the FO feuding with the coach about the importance of the season, how hard the player's should work, and not getting on the same page as far as how much to push the pedal down, vs trying to keep the player's healthy for the playoffs.

But, Jen is nor stopping Pau from rotating or not coaching him on the court what to do in a help situation. Jimmy is smart, more talented but is Pau listening to him?

That's part of it but you are right Jen's restrictions are stopping Pau to get those repititions in practice.

[RememberLu]

My man Lu, his minutes are down and his stats are up. Maybe running him for 40 mins a night wasn't such a great idea

[Rerisen]

But, Jen is nor stopping Pau from rotating or not helping him what to do in a help situation. Jimmy is smart, more talented but is Pau listening to him?

Why would we be surprised about this with Pau though? This is who he has been his whole career, a guy whose consistent effort has been questioned and likewise his toughness, which was why his deriders would call him names like Gasoft in LA. Certainly he was never known as a strong defensive player other than his length and size could be a positive obstacle to score over right at the rim.

Pau has never been a player like Joakim Noah or Taj Gibson, to just bust his butt 110% every game, or certainly not to any obvious appreciative level.

Even moreso that he is 34 years old now, slow as dirt, and likely fatigues faster. But Thibs is still idiotically running him entire quarters at a time and racking up his minutes at 35+ during tough games, despite we have 4 quality bigs.

[shanedude]

Lu has been really good for us. Our perimeter D is non existant without him.The only negative really is his inconsistency on offense.

[coldfish]

Maybe you are right in the sense...from a defensive leadership POV Deng would have stepped up and relayed Thibs's message and stressed the importance of hard practices.

The difference between Pau and Boozer is this... Boozer was trying to fit in and was happy to be in a big city/high profile atmosphere. He was ready to be led even if he had physical defeciencies.

Pau has been in LA and has won championships. It is a tougher task to break his habits, attitude. I'm not sure even if Deng could have done anything because Noah/Taj are kind of Deng's extensions.

I just feel Pau has his own philosophy compared to fitting in like Boozer. That said, Deng probably could have better impact as a SF in a lineup with Pau/Noah instead of Mirotic.

I think the best acquisition the Bulls can make in the offseason us somehow get Deng for MLE. He is the perfect addition to this roster.

I'll try to paint a picture.

Opposing teams can decide who on the Bulls is going to defend pick and roll. Whomever Pau is guarding sets the pick. This is no different than last year where Boozer's man always set the pick. Pau is actually better than Boozer in this situation because if someone penetrates, he is a much better shot blocker.

Now, in years past, Noah would be guarding someone off ball and when the other team started moving as part of the pick and roll, he would run into the middle vacating his man. Who would be the guy who would run out on Noah's man if he got the ball?

Luol Deng.

Now this year, Noah is caught where he doesn't trust his teammates. If he leaves his man, his guy is going to be wide open. Noah stays at home and the pick and roll guys don't have the help they had last year. Guys like Taj Gibson have PUBLICLY said that this is going on.

The Pau / Noah position thing is drastically overstated on the Bulls board. Both big men have the same responsibility.

Side note: It doesn't help at all that Rose is often the perimeter guy defending that pick and roll and he is awful in that position.