Otto Porter

dckingsfan · Post #1821 » by **dckingsfan** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:30 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:I have to think some of you are playing the role of trolls at this point (and some of the screennames I see involved don't surprise me) , but I'll leave it alone since this is the Otto Porter thread.

pfff

DCZards · Post #1822 » by **DCZards** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:10 pm

tontoz wrote:

Beal was a complete train wreck his first couple of months in the league but he was given big minutes and allowed to play his way out of it. Porter hasn't had that luxury. Beal has also had the benefit of playing with Wall who sets him up for easy looks time and again. Meanwhile i see Porter playing with the bench guys and making backcuts over and over and nobody hits him with a pass.

A little context, please. Beal was "given" big minutes at the outset of his rookie season because the Zards had few other options. His backcourt mates were guys that are either journeymen like AJ Price and Jannero Pargo or guys already out of the NBA like Crawford.

Yeah, you can label Beal a "train wreck" but let's not forget that those first couple of months he was asked to be a go-to guy surrounded by mostly mediocre teammates on a bad team...a tough situation for a 19 year old with one year of college ball.

Kanyewest · Post #1823 » by **Kanyewest** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:28 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:Porter wouldn't be doing what he's doing if he was facing Beal's defensive attention (obviously). Brad has been defended as a #1 option since last year's playoffs.

Put Paul George or Jimmy Butler on Otto and see if he gets you 20/5/5 in a playoff series.. Otto being better than Beal is such a stupid argument/tangent to even bring up

Yup- I haven't seen Porter get the kind of attention/respect from opponents that Beal has. Porter is essentially playing the Trevor Ariza role in this offense.

tontoz · Post #1824 » by **tontoz** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:30 pm

DCZards wrote:
tontoz wrote:

Beal was a complete train wreck his first couple of months in the league but he was given big minutes and allowed to play his way out of it. Porter hasn't had that luxury. Beal has also had the benefit of playing with Wall who sets him up for easy looks time and again. Meanwhile i see Porter playing with the bench guys and making backcuts over and over and nobody hits him with a pass.

A little context, please. Beal was "given" big minutes at the outset of his rookie season because the Zards had few other options. His backcourt mates were guys that are either journeymen like AJ Price and Jannero Pargo or guys already out of the NBA like Crawford.

Yeah, you can label Beal a "train wreck" but let's not forget that those first couple of months he was asked to be a go-to guy surrounded by mostly mediocre teammates on a bad team...a tough situation for a 19 year old with one year of college ball.

Completely missed the point. The point his that Beal has been playing big minutes from day 1 and Porter hasn't. It isn't because Beal was better, it was strictly an issue of circumstances. Beal never had to earn his minutes.

Trying to say that Porter couldn't be as productive as Beal is a reach. If Beal had quality vets in front of him he would be struggling for minutes just like Porter is now and probably wouldn't be as far along in his developement.

And there is no context needed when looking at the shooting numbers inside the arc. Porter is shooting 50% inside the arc. Beal has never shot over 43%.

tontoz · Post #1825 » by **tontoz** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:35 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:Porter wouldn't be doing what he's doing if he was facing Beal's defensive attention (obviously). Brad has been defended as a #1 option since last year's playoffs.

Put Paul George or Jimmy Butler on Otto and see if he gets you 20/5/5 in a playoff series.. Otto being better than Beal is such a stupid argument/tangent to even bring up

Yup- I haven't seen Porter get the kind of attention/respect from opponents that Beal has. Porter is essentially playing the Trevor Ariza role in this offense.

Yeah it isn't like Beal is missing wide open shots from 15-20 feet.....oh wait.

hands11 · Post #1826 » by **hands11** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:46 pm

tontoz wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:Why is it stupid to say Otto could be better than Beal? Statistically his only problem is usage. His percentages are extremely good for a second year wing.

Beal is a great rebounder and three point shooter. Average defender. Porter is the better defender TODAY.

Beal is ranked 35th in rebounding rate among 2s. His rebounding is a weakness, not a strength.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... eboundRate

If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production. Other than 3 point shooting Beal isn't that good. And his midrange game is terrible. He has never shot long 2s nearly as well as Otto has done so far this season.

At a glance, about 25 players listed above him are not starters or at least they don't even play 30 mins a game if they are.

38-25=13th

Beal is a solid rebounder for a starting SG. He still needs to get better but saying it a weakness is just wrong.

Kanyewest · Post #1827 » by **Kanyewest** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:55 pm

tontoz wrote:
DCZards wrote:
tontoz wrote:

Beal was a complete train wreck his first couple of months in the league but he was given big minutes and allowed to play his way out of it. Porter hasn't had that luxury. Beal has also had the benefit of playing with Wall who sets him up for easy looks time and again. Meanwhile i see Porter playing with the bench guys and making backcuts over and over and nobody hits him with a pass.

A little context, please. Beal was "given" big minutes at the outset of his rookie season because the Zards had few other options. His backcourt mates were guys that are either journeymen like AJ Price and Jannero Pargo or guys already out of the NBA like Crawford.

Yeah, you can label Beal a "train wreck" but let's not forget that those first couple of months he was asked to be a go-to guy surrounded by mostly mediocre teammates on a bad team...a tough situation for a 19 year old with one year of college ball.

Completely missed the point. The point his that Beal has been playing big minutes from day 1 and Porter hasn't. It isn't because Beal was better, it was strictly an issue of circumstances. Beal never had to earn his minutes.

Trying to say that Porter couldn't be as productive as Beal is a reach. If Beal had quality vets in front of him he would be struggling for minutes just like Porter is now and probably wouldn't be as far along in his developement.

And there is no context needed when looking at the shooting numbers inside the arc. Porter is shooting 50% inside the arc. Beal has never shot over 43%.

I agree that Porter road to earn minutes is harder- still he's not as talented as Beal.

You may be right relatively there was little competition to Beal at the two guard position. To me personally, the small forward position is much deeper. IMO, Beal would start on about half of all NBA teams during his second and third year, and even a few in his rookie season. I'm struggling to come up with teams where Porter would be getting starting minutes- (maybe Detroit and Philly)

I will say that Porter has improved much more on his game relative to Beal- but Beal still has more value since he is still better and attracts more attention from his opponents. Even if the overall statistical gap isn't that significant, Beal plays at a relatively weak shooting guard position in the NBA.

Post #1828 » by **jmrosenth** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:31 pm

I can't find the tweet, but someone posted per-36 minute 2nd year stats comparing Otto to Tayshaun Prince, and they are identical. Of course Tayshaun was actually playing 30+ minutes in his 2nd season, so it's a bit of stretch. Still, he's the guy that even Otto compares himself to. I'd like to see him get 28 min+ for a sustained stretch....let's see what we got. As much I like Rasual, he's better suited for spot minutes and Otto should be the primary SG/SF off the bench.

Induveca · Post #1829 » by **Induveca** » Thu Feb 5, 2015 3:39 pm

Painful night for Porter. Then again equally painful for Pierce. Gotta pin the loss on zero production from the SF position.

queridiculo · Post #1830 » by **queridiculo** » Thu Feb 5, 2015 4:17 pm

At least with Porter we got some defense and rebounding, Pierce was completely overmatched in every aspect of the game.

I would have liked to have seen him start at power forward alongside Nene and given Porter some burn as the starter at SF for precisely that reason, but it's not like Wittman is ever going to bother making any adjustments regardless of the match ups.

Post #1831 » by **LyricalRico** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:58 pm

No Beal the forseeable future means Otto should get his chance IMO. No panic trades, let's see what we've got in the guy we already have.

payitforward · Post #1832 » by **payitforward** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:33 pm

hands11 wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:Why is it stupid to say Otto could be better than Beal? Statistically his only problem is usage. His percentages are extremely good for a second year wing.

Beal is a great rebounder and three point shooter. Average defender. Porter is the better defender TODAY.

Beal is ranked 35th in rebounding rate among 2s. His rebounding is a weakness, not a strength.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... eboundRate" target="_blank

If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production. Other than 3 point shooting Beal isn't that good. And his midrange game is terrible. He has never shot long 2s nearly as well as Otto has done so far this season.

At a glance, about 25 players listed above him are not starters or at least they don't even play 30 mins a game if they are.

38-25=13th

Beal is a solid rebounder for a starting SG. He still needs to get better but saying it a weakness is just wrong.

It's not a weakness, but it's not a strength either, unfortunately. Beal's rebounds per 40 miniutes are just a little below average for a 2 guard playing 30+ minutes.

The mitigating factor is that he ranks higher in that group as an *offensive* rebounder and lower as a defensive rebounder. O boards are a more important stat.

payitforward · Post #1833 » by **payitforward** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:46 pm

tontoz wrote:If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production....

Per minute, he already does top Beal's production. You can argue that it's all because his usage is low, or you can argue it's a small sample size, but all the same the numbers right now do say that Otto is more productive per 40 minutes. His TS% is higher than Beal's, and his overall ball possession number (rebounds plus steals minus turnovers) is higher as well.

There's a dragsail on Beal's productivity: he takes almost 11 2-point shots every 40 minutes. But those 11 attempts produce only 9.2 points.

payitforward · Post #1834 » by **payitforward** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:59 pm

jmrosenth wrote:I...per-36 minute 2nd year stats comparing Otto to Tayshaun Prince, and they are identical.

Prince came into the league as a 22 year old rookie. Otto came in as a 20 year old rookie. IMO, he'll be a better player than Prince.

Post #1835 » by **Ruzious** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:59 pm

payitforward wrote:
tontoz wrote:If Otto got as many minutes as Beal i don't think he would have a hard time topping Beal's production....

Per minute, he already does top Beal's production. You can argue that it's all because his usage is low, or you can argue it's a small sample size, but all the same the numbers right now do say that Otto is more productive per 40 minutes. His TS% is higher than Beal's, and his overall ball possession number (rebounds plus steals minus turnovers) is higher as well.

There's a dragsail on Beal's productivity: he takes almost 11 2-point shots every 40 minutes. But those 11 attempts produce only 9.2 points.

Wittman needs to start upping Otto's sample size and stop coming up with excuses not to - like the absurd reasoning he came up with to start Temple against Orlando (Oladipo being a PG in Wittman's mind).

Chocolate City Jordanaire · Post #1836 » by **Chocolate City Jordanaire** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:32 am

payitforward wrote:
jmrosenth wrote:I...per-36 minute 2nd year stats comparing Otto to Tayshaun Prince, and they are identical.

Prince came into the league as a 22 year old rookie. Otto came in as a 20 year old rookie. IMO, he'll be a better player than Prince.

Porter with some added strength and about 10-15 pounds heavier can become a much more effective player.

Post #1837 » by **Ruzious** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:33 pm

The thing about comparing anyone to Prince - ya gotta remember that Prince was a GREAT defensive player - particularly in his early years with the Pistons. One thing I'll agree with Barkley on - you can't rely on stats to show you that.

Post #1838 » by **TheSecretWeapon** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:44 pm

Ruzious wrote:The thing about comparing anyone to Prince - ya gotta remember that Prince was a GREAT defensive player - particularly in his early years with the Pistons. One thing I'll agree with Barkley on - you can't rely on stats to show you that.

Grr. The stats do show that. If you're looking in the right places.

Post #1839 » by **Ruzious** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:54 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:
Ruzious wrote:The thing about comparing anyone to Prince - ya gotta remember that Prince was a GREAT defensive player - particularly in his early years with the Pistons. One thing I'll agree with Barkley on - you can't rely on stats to show you that.

Grr. The stats do show that. If you're looking in the right places.

That's likely the problem with me and Charles - we don't know the right places. The casual fan looks at blocks and steals and maybe defensive rebounds - and Prince's numbers there are mediocre.

Post #1840 » by **TheSecretWeapon** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Ruzious wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:
Ruzious wrote:The thing about comparing anyone to Prince - ya gotta remember that Prince was a GREAT defensive player - particularly in his early years with the Pistons. One thing I'll agree with Barkley on - you can't rely on stats to show you that.

Grr. The stats do show that. If you're looking in the right places.

That's likely the problem with me and Charles - we don't know the right places. The casual fan looks at blocks and steals and maybe defensive rebounds - and Prince's numbers there are mediocre.

Barkley is definitely ignorant of analytics. I'll let you diagnose yourself.