Athlete: Lebron vs Bo Jackson vs Wilt

[Zeitgeister]

Bo is THE athlete. Nobody can touch the things he did

Mainly because nobody goes into two sports anymore.

Not to take away anything from Bo but he admitted in his 30 for 30 that if he was a current up and coming athlete today, he'd have chosen to focus on one sport over the other and just specialize in that.

Bo physically was a beast but his mystique is mainly due to him deciding to go full ahead into two different sports but that arguably prevented him from becoming a hall of famer in either of them.

I'm not even talking about him as a football or baseball player, just purely based on athleticism nobody can touch his speed/strength/size. Bo ran sub 4.2 40s looking like a linebacker

To be fair, that was a hand timed 4.2 and it's important to reference that. The electronic times that they use today are a lot more accurate. I don't think he was 240 either, think it was closer to 220-230, still a spectacular athlete nonetheless. I know in baseball he had 80 power, 80 speed, and 80 arm, those tools would make him the best raw baseball prospect in history.

[East Bay Sports]

Mainly because nobody goes into two sports anymore.

Not to take away anything from Bo but he admitted in his 30 for 30 that if he was a current up and coming athlete today, he'd have chosen to focus on one sport over the other and just specialize in that.

Bo physically was a beast but his mystique is mainly due to him deciding to go full ahead into two different sports but that arguably prevented him from becoming a hall of famer in either of them.

I'm not even talking about him as a football or baseball player, just purely based on athleticism nobody can touch his speed/strength/size. Bo ran sub 4.2 40s looking like a linebacker

To be fair, that was a hand timed 4.2 and it's important to reference that. The electronic times that they use today are a lot more accurate. I don't think he was 240 either, think it was closer to 220-230, still a spectacular athlete nonetheless. I know in baseball he had 80 power, 80 speed, and 80 arm, those tools would make him the best raw baseball prospect in history.

He was listed at 227 from Auburn-on, but when he was with the Raiders he looked closer to 235-240. He was just built like a tank, legs as thick and solid as tree trunks.

And as far as the 40 time goes, don't they still rely on hand timed 40s at the combine? I don't think they use electronic times there do they? I definitely understand the difference as I've been timed both electronically and by hand, it is definitely a full 2-3 tenths of a second difference.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Yeah guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger

I never got the Arnold references.
Wilt was probably at his strongest and maybe biggest long after his NBA career was over due to him seriously getting into weight-lifting.

Even if an older post-NBA Wilt benched 500 right infront of Arnold that doesn't mean he could have done it in his Laker years let alone in his pre-Laker years when he was considerably smaller/weaker.

Just some food for thought regarding that specific story.

[Zeitgeister]

I'm not even talking about him as a football or baseball player, just purely based on athleticism nobody can touch his speed/strength/size. Bo ran sub 4.2 40s looking like a linebacker

To be fair, that was a hand timed 4.2 and it's important to reference that. The electronic times that they use today are a lot more accurate. I don't think he was 240 either, think it was closer to 220-230, still a spectacular athlete nonetheless. I know in baseball he had 80 power, 80 speed, and 80 arm, those tools would make him the best raw baseball prospect in history.

He was listed at 227 from Auburn-on, but when he was with the Raiders he looked closer to 235-240. He was just built like a tank, legs as thick and solid as tree trunks.

And as far as the 40 time goes, don't they still rely on hand timed 40s at the combine? I don't think they use electronic times there do they? I definitely understand the difference as I've been timed both electronically and by hand, it is definitely a full 2-3 tenths of a second difference.

They use hand start and electronic finish. They've been using it for about 15 years now I believe. Chris Johnson has the fastest electronic finish timed 40 at 4.24.

[CaliBullsFan]

Mario Lemieux>All 3

LOL WTF :

If the NHL had recorded TOI in the 80's and 90's Mario's TOI in the NHL would be the equivalent of Wilts minutes in the NBA. Not to mention Mario is playing a more exhausting and obviously far far far more physical sport. Just like Wilt Mario was almost always the biggest guy on the ice.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger

I never got the Arnold references.
Wilt was probably at his strongest and maybe biggest long after his NBA career was over due to him seriously getting into weight-lifting.

Even if an older post-NBA Wilt benched 500 right infront of Arnold that doesn't mean he could have done it in his Laker years let alone in his pre-Laker years when he was considerably smaller/weaker.

Just some food for thought regarding that specific story.

Wilt was "seriously into weight lifting" since he was a young teenager. He famously outlited the KU football players, and brought his weights with him on the road with the Globetrotters.

He weighed 320lbs, in muscle, coming into the 1963/64 NBA season just his 5th season. That's the same weight as Shaq the same relative year of Shaq's career only Wilt didn't have a gut.



That's Wilt his 5th season. That's definitely the physique of a decade of weight lifting his shoulders look as big as football pads.

The most impressive strength stories of Wilt come from his career. Not after it. Like dislocating Gus Johnsons shoulder by catching his dunk in mid air while throwing him to the ground with his offhand. Gus had a Charles Barkley-esq physique/strength in his own right, he was the strongest most explosive forward of the 60's. Wilt was world-strongest-man competitor type of strong. He had the genetics to start, but like strong man competitors he also trained his gifts hard. You don't bench press 350lbs at a body weight of only 260 in your early 20's, or up to 600lbs at a bodyweight of only 325lbs in your 40's if you haven't strength trained seriously your entire life.

[john248]

Wilt was a great athlete...even more than a ton of guys a foot shorter than him. But I'm picking Bo Jackson here while mentioning Bruce Lee.

[D.Brasco]

I don't think it's a question Wilt was already weight training during his NBA career.

You can look at the physique difference from him in college to the NBA.




Granted the equipment/sups he was using at the time was probably pretty primitive to what players today have their hands on.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Wilt was "seriously into weight lifting" since he was a young teenager.

He was also seriously into basketball.
His focus on weight training I believe increased as he got older which is evident in the pretty significant size difference between LAL Wilt and pre-LAL Wilt.

He weighed 320lbs, in muscle, coming into the 1963/64 NBA season just his 5th season.

I don't think Wilt was ever significantly above 280 during most of the 60's.
I have heard the 320 story but I believe he lost a good deal of weight before that season started.
Either way a Prime Wilt was rarely above 280 when he was actually playing and the pictures I have seen of Wilt from different years during the early to mid 60's seems to support that.
280 is obviously still very heavy especially for that fast paced era where few players seriously weight trained.
Wilt might have played at a heavier weight if he played in a slower paced era ala O'neal.

That's the same weight as Shaq the same relative year of Shaq's career only Wilt didn't have a gut.

Are we talking 98 Shaq here?
Because 98 Shaq was pretty shredded. He had zero gut. Go watch some of his playoff games VS the Jazz if you disagree.
Anyway the point is moot because I don't believe he ever played at 320 during his Prime.

That's Wilt his 5th season. That's definitely the physique of a decade of weight lifting his shoulders look as big as football pads.

Wilt was a big strong well toned dude but Peak Shaq is still gonna dwarf him
He doesn't look more then 280-290 in that pic.

The most impressive strength stories of Wilt come from his career.

Stories are great. What can actually be seen is better.
Prime Wilt was generally much smaller then Shaq, had a higher center of gravity and a top heavy build.
For those reasons I truly don't believe he had the basketball power that Shaq had. I think that is a logical view.
I also base that opinion on film I have watched of Wilt.

Wilt was world-strongest-man competitor type of strong.

I have seen video of Russell moving this man out of the post.
I have even seen Lakers Wilt seemingly struggling to overpower a young Kareem in the post for better positioning.
Wilt was an incredible athlete and he was very strong but in my opinion his strength was one of the least impressive parts of his athletic ability.
His size, length and leaping ability (and his speed in his youth) are what impressed me the most.
His strength, coordination and explosiveness were to me less impressive though still incredibly good particularly for a man of his size (well not the strength part but the other two things).

The fact that he may of killed it in the weight room especially in his older years doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of basketball strength.
Ben Wallace was said to bench a huge amount and yet Shaq would easily overpower him.
Weight room numbers don't always translate to basketball strength especially upper body ones which are less relevant for overpowering guys which relies more on having big strong legs and a big strong core/base.

[thizznation]

Can you stop talking about "basketball strength"? This literally has 0 to do with who is the better all around athlete. I think Wilt's endurance feets are the area where Shaq gets totally toasted. Shaq playing every minute of every game with the accelerated pace? Noooooo way. Shaq running a marathon or even a double marathon? Noooooo way. Wilt and Shaq are very equal in a lot of categories but the endurance is where Shaq gets killed.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt was "seriously into weight lifting" since he was a young teenager.

He was also seriously into basketball.
His focus on weight training I believe increased as he got older which is evident in the pretty significant size difference between LAL Wilt and pre-LAL Wilt.

He weighed 320lbs, in muscle, coming into the 1963/64 NBA season just his 5th season.

I don't think Wilt was ever significantly above 280 during most of the 60's.
I have heard the 320 story but I believe he lost a good deal of weight before that season started.
Either way a Prime Wilt was rarely above 280 when he was actually playing and the pictures I have seen of Wilt from different years during the early to mid 60's seems to support that.
280 is obviously still very heavy especially for that fast paced era where few players seriously weight trained.
Wilt might have played at a heavier weight if he played in a slower paced era ala O'neal.

That's the same weight as Shaq the same relative year of Shaq's career only Wilt didn't have a gut.

Are we talking 98 Shaq here?
Because 98 Shaq was pretty shredded. He had zero gut. Go watch some of his playoff games VS the Jazz if you disagree.
Anyway the point is moot because I don't believe he ever played at 320 during his Prime.

That's Wilt his 5th season. That's definitely the physique of a decade of weight lifting his shoulders look as big as football pads.

Wilt was a big strong well toned dude but Peak Shaq is still gonna dwarf him
He doesn't look more then 280-290 in that pic.

The most impressive strength stories of Wilt come from his career.

Stories are great. What can actually be seen is better.
Prime Wilt was generally much smaller then Shaq, had a higher center of gravity and a top heavy build.
For those reasons I truly don't believe he had the basketball power that Shaq had. I think that is a logical view.
I also base that opinion on film I have watched of Wilt.

Wilt was world-strongest-man competitor type of strong.

I have seen video of Russell moving this man out of the post.
I have even seen Lakers Wilt seemingly struggling to overpower a young Kareem in the post for better positioning.
Wilt was an incredible athlete and he was very strong but in my opinion his strength was one of the least impressive parts of his athletic ability.
His size, length and leaping ability (and his speed in his youth) are what impressed me the most.
His strength, coordination and explosiveness were to me less impressive though still incredibly good particularly for a man of his size (well not the strength part but the other two things).

The fact that he may of killed it in the weight room especially in his older years doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of basketball strength.
Ben Wallace was said to bench a huge amount and yet Shaq would easily overpower him.
Weight room numbers don't always translate to basketball strength especially upper body ones which are less relevant for overpowering guys which relies more on having big strong legs and a big strong core/base.

Wilt weighed 292lbs LATE in the 1964 season. He certainly lost a good portion of the 320... but he was every bit of 320 coming into the season due to strength training in the off season and played at a playing weight of 290+ from there on out for the remainder of his career. From 1969 season onwards he then played 300-310. The majority of Wilt Chamberlain's career - 5th season onwards was played 290-310. This is no longer mysterious poorly documented stuff, I've done a lot of research on this. His listed weights were nothing more than an arbitrary number on a piece of paper he was bigger than his 250 rookie list weight as a rookie (258 coming into his first NBA game to be exact) and significantly bigger than his 3rd season bump to a 275 list weight from his 5th season on.

This is not a guess, this is not an assumption, Wilt Chamberlain was seriously into weight training and physical conditioning since being a teenager. Not more so as he became an adult, not more so after his playing career. Since he was a kid and THROUGH his playing career. He was hardcore into it from his teenage years and it continued throughout his life. He was a lifetime gym rat. He trained himself and conditioned himself in ways you guys probably have no clue about. He treated himself like a thoroughbred race horse, he used that analogy, and watched how horses that had fractures or injured legs would be run through cool waters for icy low-impact resistance training to reduce swelling and nurse injuries. He was an extremely intelligent and dedicated excersize-aholic. You know he had knee surgery to repair torn tendons something like 8 games into the 1970 season and PLAYED that same seasons final 3 games and the entire playoffs? That is unheard of recovery time even by today's standards. And it's because he knew his body better than anybody, and how to heal, condition, and keep it strong.

Here's a 1969 article:


Also... let me give you guys another lesson about sports photography, and how it has changed the perception and image capture of athletes. Modern sports photography lenses, are telephoto zoom, often 400mm+. In the b/w era, cameras were more like a diminutive 35mm, sometimes 50mm. Towards the early 70's sometimes rarely photographs were taken approaching 200mm in zoom. Anyone who's into photography will tell you if you ask. What kind of lens should one want to use in order to "fill out" a subject the maximum degree? (you know, the opposite of talk show hosts wanting a "slimming" camera)? Zoom lenses. It's an optical effect.

High zoom vs low zoom on the same subject:


Dwight Howard, a 280lb 6 foot 9 inch beast. Am I right?

Here's an extraordinarily typical modern sports photography zoom lens image of Dwight:


Look at those giant shoulders and arms. Looks way bigger than 60's images of an allegedly 290-310lb Wilt right?

Hold up though. Here's Dwight taken in the middle of that same season, but without such an expensive zoom lens camera. This is about the same zoom you could expect to get from 95% of Wilt Chamberlain era sports photography.


Notice how he doesn't look as volumous? Athletes looking super swole on sports cameras is a deliberate illusion, for marketing. It's no accident those cameras are used. But it's a technology that didn't come into it's own during the Wilt Chamberlain era.

Wilt was a much bigger athlete than Dwight, and had a larger uppder body than Shaq. Not lower body, but definitely upper body. His shoulders sat higher up on his frame and were broader than Shaq's as can be seen when they stood side by side.





Images scaled using the basketballs - shot with similar lenses. Rookie 258lb Wilt is holding the basketball. The bigger Wilt's without the basketballs are Wilt in the 1970's when he was 300-310 scaled to be identical to the 1958 scaled image (no basketballs in those images).

(High res link: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QzbplB9mDjo/VCJlvg6qYwI/AAAAAAAAFdE/vRWksoX1Xw4/s0/wiltmiscellaneouscenters.jpg

Here's another scaled image. I estimate the Wilt image from 1972 is about a 200mm zoom, it's definitely a zoom lens but much less so than the Shaq image which is probably closer to 400+ (you can tell the great difference by the blurriness of the backgrounds) which would still fill him out proportionately more than the image of Wilt. But at least it closes the gap in image focal length way better than any 60's image of Wilt would - and Wilt only weighed about 10-20lbs more from his prime (on an already 290lb frame that 10-20 is a not a huge difference).


Also here's one more. There's actually a game that exists of Wilt playing on the EXACT same floor as Shaq. and a moment in said game when the lenses overlap, and the players are standing almost right "next" to each other.

Wilt 1973 Chicago Arena

Shaq 1993 same building, same camera zoom:

50/50


Now you tell me, which athlete looks more imposing? Yes I'm aware that's a rookie Shaq. But when the variables are the same, camera lenses, etc, Wilt is the bigger framed athlete than Shaq. He's taller, longer, and his upper body is naturally broader and carries more mass. Shaq's got thicker legs. In a lot of ways (just from an appearances point of view) Shaq is to Wilt what Charles Barkley is to Karl Malone. He's shorter, stouter and had a recurring weight gain problem which made him heavier most of the time. But Malone is the better conditioned (due to working harder in the gym) athlete with a smaller waist and bigger upper body.

This is a lot to take in. But it's all relevant citeable information.

[ronnymac2]

Re: Wilt vs. Shaq

Shaq is the better basketball player.
Shaq's athletic gifts are slightly better for basketball.
Wilt is clearly the better athlete.

Re: Brock Lesnar

I was not joking about him being one of the most physically imposing human beings in history. He's built differently. He's got slabs of muscle in functional strength areas that are incredibly difficult to achieve, and he's got insane speed and quickness on top of that. 6'3", 260 lbs. when in MMA fighting shape. 295 pounds at his biggest. He only didn't make the NFL because of hip and jaw injuries. He was an All-American wrestler in college and became a champion in MMA, which means he had the capability to train his muscular and nervous systems to become a world champion fighter against guys who trained all their lives to fight. He looks horrible in his last fights because of diverticulitis. Even in WWE, he is known as one of the best workers in the business, constantly being able to sell other guys' moves despite being a huge monster. That stuff is scripted, but it takes tremendous athletic talent to be able to fight and NOT hurt somebody. He can actually hurt people AND not hurt people. He is a once-in-a-generation athlete.

Re: OP

I don't know. Bo Jackson seems like a really good choice, but LBJ is basically proportioned like a regular person yet athletic like a super athletic 6 foot tall man. LBJ is a freak. Then you've got Wilt, who has an impressive package of athletic traits in a 7 foot tall body with a godlike wingspan. Combine that with great endurance and the different sports he has played, I might go with Wilt.

Re: GOAT Athlete

It's probably nobody in this thread. It's probably whoever the GOAT decathlon performer is. You basically need to be world class in 10 events. Those guys have proven their ability on the greatest stages, unlike these other guys who we speculate could have been world class in different events.

[ronnymac2]

Also, not sure if we're only counting human athletes, but what Secretariat did was mighty impressive. I know many say Man O'War is the GOAT horse, and I don't pretend to be an expert on horse racing, but Secretariat is basically Russell, Chamberlain, Mikan, and Jordan all in one as far as domination goes. His records at 3 major races haven't been broken in 40 years.

[RSCD3_]

Re: Wilt vs. Shaq

Shaq is the better basketball player.
Shaq's athletic gifts are slightly better for basketball.
Wilt is clearly the better athlete.

Re: Brock Lesnar

I was not joking about him being one of the most physically imposing human beings in history. He's built differently. He's got slabs of muscle in functional strength areas that are incredibly difficult to achieve, and he's got insane speed and quickness on top of that. 6'3", 260 lbs. when in MMA fighting shape. 295 pounds at his biggest. He only didn't make the NFL because of hip and jaw injuries. He was an All-American wrestler in college and became a champion in MMA, which means he had the capability to train his muscular and nervous systems to become a world champion fighter against guys who trained all their lives to fight. He looks horrible in his last fights because of diverticulitis. Even in WWE, he is known as one of the best workers in the business, constantly being able to sell other guys' moves despite being a huge monster. That stuff is scripted, but it takes tremendous athletic talent to be able to fight and NOT hurt somebody. He can actually hurt people AND not hurt people. He is a once-in-a-generation athlete.

Re: OP

I don't know. Bo Jackson seems like a really good choice, but LBJ is basically proportioned like a regular person yet athletic like a super athletic 6 foot tall man. LBJ is a freak. Then you've got Wilt, who has an impressive package of athletic traits in a 7 foot tall body with a godlike wingspan. Combine that with great endurance and the different sports he has played, I might go with Wilt.

Re: GOAT Athlete

It's probably nobody in this thread. It's probably whoever the GOAT decathlon performer is. You basically need to be world class in 10 events. Those guys have proven their ability on the greatest stages, unlike these other guys who we speculate could have been world class in different events.

Don't know how much of a football fan you are but can you compare his physique/athletic abilities to guys like gronk and j.j watt, maybe cam chancellor too. Like what does he have over them?

[ronnymac2]

Spoiler:

Re: Wilt vs. Shaq

Shaq is the better basketball player.
Shaq's athletic gifts are slightly better for basketball.
Wilt is clearly the better athlete.

Re: Brock Lesnar

I was not joking about him being one of the most physically imposing human beings in history. He's built differently. He's got slabs of muscle in functional strength areas that are incredibly difficult to achieve, and he's got insane speed and quickness on top of that. 6'3", 260 lbs. when in MMA fighting shape. 295 pounds at his biggest. He only didn't make the NFL because of hip and jaw injuries. He was an All-American wrestler in college and became a champion in MMA, which means he had the capability to train his muscular and nervous systems to become a world champion fighter against guys who trained all their lives to fight. He looks horrible in his last fights because of diverticulitis. Even in WWE, he is known as one of the best workers in the business, constantly being able to sell other guys' moves despite being a huge monster. That stuff is scripted, but it takes tremendous athletic talent to be able to fight and NOT hurt somebody. He can actually hurt people AND not hurt people. He is a once-in-a-generation athlete.

Re: OP

I don't know. Bo Jackson seems like a really good choice, but LBJ is basically proportioned like a regular person yet athletic like a super athletic 6 foot tall man. LBJ is a freak. Then you've got Wilt, who has an impressive package of athletic traits in a 7 foot tall body with a godlike wingspan. Combine that with great endurance and the different sports he has played, I might go with Wilt.

Re: GOAT Athlete

It's probably nobody in this thread. It's probably whoever the GOAT decathlon performer is. You basically need to be world class in 10 events. Those guys have proven their ability on the greatest stages, unlike these other guys who we speculate could have been world class in different events.

Don't know how much of a football fan you are but can you compare his physique/athletic abilities to guys like gronk and j.j watt, maybe cam chancellor too. Like what does he have over them?

Brock? Not sure, I don't know much about those guys aside from them being super strong and fast and great at football. I don't know what other sports they've done and competed in at a high level. Lesnar has proven himself in multiple sports/athletic endeavors. It's possible those guys are more athletic, and certainly they have trained themselves for football in the long term, so they have advantages when it comes to traits beneficial to success in the NFL (I'd imagine speed, quickness, explosion, lateral movement).

My point is that Lesnar has proven he can adapt his gifts to a variety of athletic environments and has done well for himself.

[CaliBullsFan]

Re: GOAT Athlete

It's probably nobody in this thread. It's probably whoever the GOAT decathlon performer is. You basically need to be world class in 10 events. Those guys have proven their ability on the greatest stages, unlike these other guys who we speculate could have been world class in different events.

No not even close. the most important athletic attribute is your reflex. The decathlon requires no reflexes

[RayBan-Sematra]

Wilt weighed 292lbs LATE in the 1964 season. He certainly lost a good portion of the 320... but he was every bit of 320 coming into the season due to strength training in the off season and played at a playing weight of 290+ from there on out for the remainder of his career.

True or not Wilt generally appears much smaller in every picture I have seen of him before he joined the Lakers which leads me to believe he was at the very least 20-30lbs lighter during those days.

I can believe that at times Wilt approached 300 during the early to mid 60's but in general I believe his weight was usually lower then that.

From 1969 season onwards he then played 300-310. The majority of Wilt Chamberlain's career - 5th season onwards was played 290-310.

Agree to disagree for now.
I think it was closer to his 9th-10th season that he reached the 290-300+ mark and not before then.
From 60-68 he was usually around 280 at most.

Wilt had a larger upper body than Shaq. Not lower body, but definitely upper body. His shoulders sat higher up on his frame and were broader than Shaq's as can be seen when they stood side by side.

Eh...
In the first picture Wilt's shoulders do appear slightly higher but that could easily be the result of posture.
Try lifting your shoulders up with your arms to your side and then lazily cross them on your chest.
The second posture makes your shoulders considerably lower.
I also don't think he appears to be wider then Shaq despite wearing a puffy suit that exaggerates his size as opposed to Shaq who is wearing a sports shirt that doesn't even cover his shoulders.
But obviously the angle doesn't make it easy to see Wilt's width but you can see enough to reasonably speculate.

In the second pic they seem to have a comparable upper body size.
Maybe a slight edge to Wilt but again his clothes make him look bigger and it isn't easy to tell if they are on the exact same plane or if he is perhaps standing slightly closer.
As I examine the picture more and more I get the sense that Wilt may be slightly closer to the camera.
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me.

The main thing to remember here is that we are looking at Shaq at his smallest while we are looking at Wilt at his biggest.
I am sure Rookie Shaq and Lakers or post-NBA Wilt would be of a comparable size but Prime Shaq is still considerably bigger then Prime Wilt and Peak Shaq is considerably bigger then Lakers Wilt.

I had a picture once showing how Shaq evolved and grew over the years.
By 00 he basically dwarfed his Rookie self.

Here's another scaled image.

Not sure how much faith I have in these sort of self done comp images but for now let me put that aside.
I do think it looks well done.
Still this is a pic of Wilt at his biggest VS Shaq at his smallest.
Assuming the pic is truly accurate I am not surprised that they seem to be very similar in overall size with Wilt seeming to be slightly larger in the upper body while Shaq is bigger in the lower body.

Also here's one more. There's actually a game that exists of Wilt playing on the EXACT same floor as Shaq. and a moment in said game when the lenses overlap, and the players are standing almost right "next" to each other.

Wilt 1973 Chicago Arena

Shaq 1993 same building, same camera zoom:

50/50

Wilt seems slightly closer to the camera but either way this is Rook Shaq VS Laker Wilt.
Not a reasonable comparison.

Now you tell me, which athlete looks more imposing?

Rookie Shaq and Lakers Wilt look comparably imposing to me.

Yes I'm aware that's a rookie Shaq. But when the variables are the same, camera lenses, etc, Wilt is the bigger framed athlete than Shaq.

I disagree for now. I still think Shaq appears to have a slightly wider frame then Wilt.
Still know that I respect your opinions on these matters and usually enjoy hearing them.

He's taller, longer,

They are essentially the same height and have basically the same length.
Perhaps Wilt was half an inch or one inch longer but such a small difference is inconsequential and practically unnoticeable.

and his upper body is naturally broader and carries more mass.

Disagree.
Wash at worst.
I mean look at the pic where they are both palming the ball.
Comparable upper body size/width and this is Rookie Shaq.

Shaq's got thicker legs. In a lot of ways (just from an appearances point of view) Shaq is to Wilt what Charles Barkley is to Karl Malone. He's shorter, stouter and had a recurring weight gain problem which made him heavier most of the time.

But he really isn't "shorter" to any significant degree.
He was heavier not due to weight issues but because he was bigger and carried more muscle on his frame.
Rookie Shaq had no fat on his frame and was a solid 300.
2000 Shaq had very little fat on his frame and was probably pushing 340-350.

[Brenice]

There's a story on CNN right now about a guy who got released after 10 years in prison after eyewitnesses finally admit they lied.
If eyewitnesses don't mind wrongfully sending someone to prison, they certainly wouldn't mind making up stories for the sake of joining in on the Wilt Chamberlain circle jerk.

Is the "jerk" comment necessary?

Where are the eyewitnesses who dispute what all those people say about Wilt? Surely you can find one eyewitness who say Wilt's feats were exaggerated.

[KyletheDingbat]

Wilt was "seriously into weight lifting" since he was a young teenager.

He was also seriously into basketball.
His focus on weight training I believe increased as he got older which is evident in the pretty significant size difference between LAL Wilt and pre-LAL Wilt.

He weighed 320lbs, in muscle, coming into the 1963/64 NBA season just his 5th season.

I don't think Wilt was ever significantly above 280 during most of the 60's.
I have heard the 320 story but I believe he lost a good deal of weight before that season started.
Either way a Prime Wilt was rarely above 280 when he was actually playing and the pictures I have seen of Wilt from different years during the early to mid 60's seems to support that.
280 is obviously still very heavy especially for that fast paced era where few players seriously weight trained.
Wilt might have played at a heavier weight if he played in a slower paced era ala O'neal.

That's the same weight as Shaq the same relative year of Shaq's career only Wilt didn't have a gut.

Are we talking 98 Shaq here?
Because 98 Shaq was pretty shredded. He had zero gut. Go watch some of his playoff games VS the Jazz if you disagree.
Anyway the point is moot because I don't believe he ever played at 320 during his Prime.

That's Wilt his 5th season. That's definitely the physique of a decade of weight lifting his shoulders look as big as football pads.

Wilt was a big strong well toned dude but Peak Shaq is still gonna dwarf him
He doesn't look more then 280-290 in that pic.

The most impressive strength stories of Wilt come from his career.

Stories are great. What can actually be seen is better.
Prime Wilt was generally much smaller then Shaq, had a higher center of gravity and a top heavy build.
For those reasons I truly don't believe he had the basketball power that Shaq had. I think that is a logical view.
I also base that opinion on film I have watched of Wilt.

Wilt was world-strongest-man competitor type of strong.

I have seen video of Russell moving this man out of the post.
I have even seen Lakers Wilt seemingly struggling to overpower a young Kareem in the post for better positioning.
Wilt was an incredible athlete and he was very strong but in my opinion his strength was one of the least impressive parts of his athletic ability.
His size, length and leaping ability (and his speed in his youth) are what impressed me the most.
His strength, coordination and explosiveness were to me less impressive though still incredibly good particularly for a man of his size (well not the strength part but the other two things).

The fact that he may of killed it in the weight room especially in his older years doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of basketball strength.
Ben Wallace was said to bench a huge amount and yet Shaq would easily overpower him.
Weight room numbers don't always translate to basketball strength especially upper body ones which are less relevant for overpowering guys which relies more on having big strong legs and a big strong core/base.

Wilt weighed 292lbs LATE in the 1964 season. He certainly lost a good portion of the 320... but he was every bit of 320 coming into the season due to strength training in the off season and played at a playing weight of 290+ from there on out for the remainder of his career. From 1969 season onwards he then played 300-310. The majority of Wilt Chamberlain's career - 5th season onwards was played 290-310. This is no longer mysterious poorly documented stuff, I've done a lot of research on this. His listed weights were nothing more than an arbitrary number on a piece of paper he was bigger than his 250 rookie list weight as a rookie (258 coming into his first NBA game to be exact) and significantly bigger than his 3rd season bump to a 275 list weight from his 5th season on.

This is not a guess, this is not an assumption, Wilt Chamberlain was seriously into weight training and physical conditioning since being a teenager. Not more so as he became an adult, not more so after his playing career. Since he was a kid and THROUGH his playing career. He was hardcore into it from his teenage years and it continued throughout his life. He was a lifetime gym rat. He trained himself and conditioned himself in ways you guys probably have no clue about. He treated himself like a thoroughbred race horse, he used that analogy, and watched how horses that had fractures or injured legs would be run through cool waters for icy low-impact resistance training to reduce swelling and nurse injuries. He was an extremely intelligent and dedicated excersize-aholic. You know he had knee surgery to repair torn tendons something like 8 games into the 1970 season and PLAYED that same seasons final 3 games and the entire playoffs? That is unheard of recovery time even by today's standards. And it's because he knew his body better than anybody, and how to heal, condition, and keep it strong.

Here's a 1969 article:


Also... let me give you guys another lesson about sports photography, and how it has changed the perception and image capture of athletes. Modern sports photography lenses, are telephoto zoom, often 400mm+. In the b/w era, cameras were more like a diminutive 35mm, sometimes 50mm. Towards the early 70's sometimes rarely photographs were taken approaching 200mm in zoom. Anyone who's into photography will tell you if you ask. What kind of lens should one want to use in order to "fill out" a subject the maximum degree? (you know, the opposite of talk show hosts wanting a "slimming" camera)? Zoom lenses. It's an optical effect.

High zoom vs low zoom on the same subject:


Dwight Howard, a 280lb 6 foot 9 inch beast. Am I right?

Here's an extraordinarily typical modern sports photography zoom lens image of Dwight:


Look at those giant shoulders and arms. Looks way bigger than 60's images of an allegedly 290-310lb Wilt right?

Hold up though. Here's Dwight taken in the middle of that same season, but without such an expensive zoom lens camera. This is about the same zoom you could expect to get from 95% of Wilt Chamberlain era sports photography.


Notice how he doesn't look as volumous? Athletes looking super swole on sports cameras is a deliberate illusion, for marketing. It's no accident those cameras are used. But it's a technology that didn't come into it's own during the Wilt Chamberlain era.

Wilt was a much bigger athlete than Dwight, and had a larger uppder body than Shaq. Not lower body, but definitely upper body. His shoulders sat higher up on his frame and were broader than Shaq's as can be seen when they stood side by side.





Images scaled using the basketballs - shot with similar lenses. Rookie 258lb Wilt is holding the basketball. The bigger Wilt's without the basketballs are Wilt in the 1970's when he was 300-310 scaled to be identical to the 1958 scaled image (no basketballs in those images).

(High res link: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QzbplB9mDjo/VCJlvg6qYwI/AAAAAAAAFdE/vRWksoX1Xw4/s0/wiltmiscellaneouscenters.jpg

Here's another scaled image. I estimate the Wilt image from 1972 is about a 200mm zoom, it's definitely a zoom lens but much less so than the Shaq image which is probably closer to 400+ (you can tell the great difference by the blurriness of the backgrounds) which would still fill him out proportionately more than the image of Wilt. But at least it closes the gap in image focal length way better than any 60's image of Wilt would - and Wilt only weighed about 10-20lbs more from his prime (on an already 290lb frame that 10-20 is a not a huge difference).


Also here's one more. There's actually a game that exists of Wilt playing on the EXACT same floor as Shaq. and a moment in said game when the lenses overlap, and the players are standing almost right "next" to each other.

Wilt 1973 Chicago Arena

Shaq 1993 same building, same camera zoom:

50/50


Now you tell me, which athlete looks more imposing? Yes I'm aware that's a rookie Shaq. But when the variables are the same, camera lenses, etc, Wilt is the bigger framed athlete than Shaq. He's taller, longer, and his upper body is naturally broader and carries more mass. Shaq's got thicker legs. In a lot of ways (just from an appearances point of view) Shaq is to Wilt what Charles Barkley is to Karl Malone. He's shorter, stouter and had a recurring weight gain problem which made him heavier most of the time. But Malone is the better conditioned (due to working harder in the gym) athlete with a smaller waist and bigger upper body.

This is a lot to take in. But it's all relevant citeable information.

Great post.

[Exodus]

Wilt was "seriously into weight lifting" since he was a young teenager.

He was also seriously into basketball.
His focus on weight training I believe increased as he got older which is evident in the pretty significant size difference between LAL Wilt and pre-LAL Wilt.

He weighed 320lbs, in muscle, coming into the 1963/64 NBA season just his 5th season.

I don't think Wilt was ever significantly above 280 during most of the 60's.
I have heard the 320 story but I believe he lost a good deal of weight before that season started.
Either way a Prime Wilt was rarely above 280 when he was actually playing and the pictures I have seen of Wilt from different years during the early to mid 60's seems to support that.
280 is obviously still very heavy especially for that fast paced era where few players seriously weight trained.
Wilt might have played at a heavier weight if he played in a slower paced era ala O'neal.

That's the same weight as Shaq the same relative year of Shaq's career only Wilt didn't have a gut.

Are we talking 98 Shaq here?
Because 98 Shaq was pretty shredded. He had zero gut. Go watch some of his playoff games VS the Jazz if you disagree.
Anyway the point is moot because I don't believe he ever played at 320 during his Prime.

That's Wilt his 5th season. That's definitely the physique of a decade of weight lifting his shoulders look as big as football pads.

Wilt was a big strong well toned dude but Peak Shaq is still gonna dwarf him
He doesn't look more then 280-290 in that pic.

The most impressive strength stories of Wilt come from his career.

Stories are great. What can actually be seen is better.
Prime Wilt was generally much smaller then Shaq, had a higher center of gravity and a top heavy build.
For those reasons I truly don't believe he had the basketball power that Shaq had. I think that is a logical view.
I also base that opinion on film I have watched of Wilt.

Wilt was world-strongest-man competitor type of strong.

I have seen video of Russell moving this man out of the post.
I have even seen Lakers Wilt seemingly struggling to overpower a young Kareem in the post for better positioning.
Wilt was an incredible athlete and he was very strong but in my opinion his strength was one of the least impressive parts of his athletic ability.
His size, length and leaping ability (and his speed in his youth) are what impressed me the most.
His strength, coordination and explosiveness were to me less impressive though still incredibly good particularly for a man of his size (well not the strength part but the other two things).

The fact that he may of killed it in the weight room especially in his older years doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of basketball strength.
Ben Wallace was said to bench a huge amount and yet Shaq would easily overpower him.
Weight room numbers don't always translate to basketball strength especially upper body ones which are less relevant for overpowering guys which relies more on having big strong legs and a big strong core/base.

Wilt weighed 292lbs LATE in the 1964 season. He certainly lost a good portion of the 320... but he was every bit of 320 coming into the season due to strength training in the off season and played at a playing weight of 290+ from there on out for the remainder of his career. From 1969 season onwards he then played 300-310. The majority of Wilt Chamberlain's career - 5th season onwards was played 290-310. This is no longer mysterious poorly documented stuff, I've done a lot of research on this. His listed weights were nothing more than an arbitrary number on a piece of paper he was bigger than his 250 rookie list weight as a rookie (258 coming into his first NBA game to be exact) and significantly bigger than his 3rd season bump to a 275 list weight from his 5th season on.

This is not a guess, this is not an assumption, Wilt Chamberlain was seriously into weight training and physical conditioning since being a teenager. Not more so as he became an adult, not more so after his playing career. Since he was a kid and THROUGH his playing career. He was hardcore into it from his teenage years and it continued throughout his life. He was a lifetime gym rat. He trained himself and conditioned himself in ways you guys probably have no clue about. He treated himself like a thoroughbred race horse, he used that analogy, and watched how horses that had fractures or injured legs would be run through cool waters for icy low-impact resistance training to reduce swelling and nurse injuries. He was an extremely intelligent and dedicated excersize-aholic. You know he had knee surgery to repair torn tendons something like 8 games into the 1970 season and PLAYED that same seasons final 3 games and the entire playoffs? That is unheard of recovery time even by today's standards. And it's because he knew his body better than anybody, and how to heal, condition, and keep it strong.

Here's a 1969 article:


Also... let me give you guys another lesson about sports photography, and how it has changed the perception and image capture of athletes. Modern sports photography lenses, are telephoto zoom, often 400mm+. In the b/w era, cameras were more like a diminutive 35mm, sometimes 50mm. Towards the early 70's sometimes rarely photographs were taken approaching 200mm in zoom. Anyone who's into photography will tell you if you ask. What kind of lens should one want to use in order to "fill out" a subject the maximum degree? (you know, the opposite of talk show hosts wanting a "slimming" camera)? Zoom lenses. It's an optical effect.

High zoom vs low zoom on the same subject:


Dwight Howard, a 280lb 6 foot 9 inch beast. Am I right?

Here's an extraordinarily typical modern sports photography zoom lens image of Dwight:


Look at those giant shoulders and arms. Looks way bigger than 60's images of an allegedly 290-310lb Wilt right?

Hold up though. Here's Dwight taken in the middle of that same season, but without such an expensive zoom lens camera. This is about the same zoom you could expect to get from 95% of Wilt Chamberlain era sports photography.


Notice how he doesn't look as volumous? Athletes looking super swole on sports cameras is a deliberate illusion, for marketing. It's no accident those cameras are used. But it's a technology that didn't come into it's own during the Wilt Chamberlain era.

Wilt was a much bigger athlete than Dwight, and had a larger uppder body than Shaq. Not lower body, but definitely upper body. His shoulders sat higher up on his frame and were broader than Shaq's as can be seen when they stood side by side.





Images scaled using the basketballs - shot with similar lenses. Rookie 258lb Wilt is holding the basketball. The bigger Wilt's without the basketballs are Wilt in the 1970's when he was 300-310 scaled to be identical to the 1958 scaled image (no basketballs in those images).

(High res link: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QzbplB9mDjo/VCJlvg6qYwI/AAAAAAAAFdE/vRWksoX1Xw4/s0/wiltmiscellaneouscenters.jpg

Here's another scaled image. I estimate the Wilt image from 1972 is about a 200mm zoom, it's definitely a zoom lens but much less so than the Shaq image which is probably closer to 400+ (you can tell the great difference by the blurriness of the backgrounds) which would still fill him out proportionately more than the image of Wilt. But at least it closes the gap in image focal length way better than any 60's image of Wilt would - and Wilt only weighed about 10-20lbs more from his prime (on an already 290lb frame that 10-20 is a not a huge difference).


Also here's one more. There's actually a game that exists of Wilt playing on the EXACT same floor as Shaq. and a moment in said game when the lenses overlap, and the players are standing almost right "next" to each other.

Wilt 1973 Chicago Arena

Shaq 1993 same building, same camera zoom:

50/50


Now you tell me, which athlete looks more imposing? Yes I'm aware that's a rookie Shaq. But when the variables are the same, camera lenses, etc, Wilt is the bigger framed athlete than Shaq. He's taller, longer, and his upper body is naturally broader and carries more mass. Shaq's got thicker legs. In a lot of ways (just from an appearances point of view) Shaq is to Wilt what Charles Barkley is to Karl Malone. He's shorter, stouter and had a recurring weight gain problem which made him heavier most of the time. But Malone is the better conditioned (due to working harder in the gym) athlete with a smaller waist and bigger upper body.

This is a lot to take in. But it's all relevant citeable information.

RBS just got owned dam! I agree though that Wilt is vastly superior to Shaq athleticism wise. Wilt was strong as an ox. He vertical was vastly superior to Shaq. He can run a lot faster than Shaq. He had freakish hands size. Wilt was a true animal.