Derrick Rose "Done" Date

[DJHill]

First off, mods, if this topic seems redundant and would be better served to go into the Derrick Rose thread then lock this and I apologize. This topic is about Derrick but is rather about the idea that his chances of ever becoming a MVP caliber player are "done" or "over". Derrick is treading in unprecedented waters here. There is no other NBA (can't talk for other sports as I don't watch them) player, that I can remember, who has suffered TWO major knee injuries back to back and has come back at all, let alone even do what Derrick is doing right now (inefficient shooting and all). BUT, from reading various threads/posts on this forum, I've seen various people state that Derrick's MVP caliber days are "over" and "done" and that he isn't the player that can take over games anymore. I definitely don't deny this and can kind of understand where statements like that are coming from as when I watch him play nowadays, he lacks that certain explosiveness he had back in 2011, especially laterally and of course, he's shooting way, way more threes at a way less than ideal and efficient rate. But, the real heart of this thread is, considering that Rose has only played in 38 games so far, after missing two whole seasons of NBA basketball:

1) At what arbitrary point do we consider Derrick "done" (if he keeps playing at his current level or less than)? If you think it's now, is it fair to, considering he's only played 38 games after missing two seasons? Is it two years? 3/4ths of this season? End of this season?

2) By declaring Derrick "done" are we all vastly underestimating how strenuous and physically exhausting an 82 game season (plus playoffs) really is, in context of doing what he's doing in the 38 games he's played after missing two years?

Will be interesting to see if we can come up with a consensus time. Me personally, I'm nowhere near in the same shape as an NBA player and I know I sure as hell couldn't play ball full-time after two years of not doing so. I can only dream of knowing how Derrick or any player of his ability level could do it, and they're in shape.

Discuss.

[dice]

it's entirely a question of whether his mental makeup has been irretrievably altered by the injuries. until he recognizes that he's gonna have to return to his old style of play (breaking down defenses) to be effective, he might as well be "done"

maybe it'll take playoff failure to snap him back to reality. maybe that won't even do it. but it'll take a little bit into next season before we can reasonably give up hope

[NZB2323]

38 games is enough of a sample size. Just like how Jordan was done in 1995 after shooting 41% in the regular season, and having almost as many turnovers as assists in the playoffs.

[dice]

38 games is enough of a sample size. Just like how Jordan was done in 1995 after shooting 41% in the regular season, and having almost as many turnovers as assists in the playoffs.

jordan was back to form after 20 games. it's not a comparable situation

[drbg43]

All star break next year. Judgment day.

[greenl]

Pull him off the grill, chef- he's done now.

[HomoSapien]

I don't think he's done from a physical stand point. He for the most part looks just as quick as before. He's probably not as explosive, but I think physically he looks great.

Mentally, he's a mess out there, and that's why I want the Bulls to get off the Derrick Rose train as soon as possible. I don't trust him, I don't think he's much of a leader, and I'm disappointed in how much of a dumb basketball player he has become. A good point guard know that you have to get your teammates involved, especially if you're struggling offensively. Instead, he's seems determined to keep shooting bad threes.

I've often said that I wouldn't want an "old" Rose here, because as soon as he physically declines, he'll be a bad basketball player. You can sort of see why now. He doesn't have a go-to move, can't shoot, and doesn't get teammates involved. In my opinion, the Bulls would be better off getting out of his contract and investing all that money is someone else.

[NZB2323]

38 games is enough of a sample size. Just like how Jordan was done in 1995 after shooting 41% in the regular season, and having almost as many turnovers as assists in the playoffs.

jordan was back to form after 20 games. it's not a comparable situation

Really? Jordan was back to form against the Magic in the playoffs?

[DanTown8587]

38 games is enough of a sample size. Just like how Jordan was done in 1995 after shooting 41% in the regular season, and having almost as many turnovers as assists in the playoffs.

Jordan also had a PER of 24 and games in the 40s constantly while being the best player ever.

EDIT While Jordan may have been better later in his career, he was MUCH closer to his peak than Derrick is/was now. While Jordan had games he struggled, he had games you would never guessed he was back after playing baseball. Of course Derrick has a few good games too but those are MUCH further apart than Jordan's were. Conservatively, Jordan was probably 85%-90% in the 95 playoffs (the real reason the team lost was they just weren't used to playing with MJ yet and how that runs things) but Derrick is no where close to that much of his former self.

The OTHER problem is that 85-90% of MJ is a MUCH better player than 85-90% of Derrick Rose; that extra 10% is what makes Rose the guy he is and without it, I'm not sure he's even that good.

[dice]

38 games is enough of a sample size. Just like how Jordan was done in 1995 after shooting 41% in the regular season, and having almost as many turnovers as assists in the playoffs.

jordan was back to form after 20 games. it's not a comparable situation

Really? Jordan was back to form against the Magic in the playoffs?

unless it's your opinion that he NEVER returned to form, then yes. because his numbers were very similar the following year's playoffs (as well as the prior third title season, actually) and declined thereafter.

[7thwatch]

Personally, I'd say the beginning of next season is where I'd draw the line. If he stays healthy, plays a relatively full season, and has a full off-season to do normal training, at that point i'll assume he is what he is. Until then, I'll keep talking myself back into hoping that he will return to form eventually.

[NZB2323]

jordan was back to form after 20 games. it's not a comparable situation

Really? Jordan was back to form against the Magic in the playoffs?

unless it's your opinion that he NEVER returned to form, then yes. because his numbers were very similar the following year's playoffs and declined thereafter

Nope. Jordan did things in the series against the Magic that Rose is doing now: having a lot of turnovers and shooting a poor %. In game 1 he shot 8-22 and had 8 turnovers. In game 6 he shot 8-19 and had 6 turnovers.

[HomoSapien]

jordan was back to form after 20 games. it's not a comparable situation

Really? Jordan was back to form against the Magic in the playoffs?

unless it's your opinion that he NEVER returned to form, then yes. because his numbers were very similar the following year's playoffs (as well as the third title season) and declined thereafter.

Jordan's playoff numbers that year:

31.5 PPG, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.4 bpg, 48% FG, 37% 3PT

He really was more or less back. Maybe not as sharp, but I think people built that Nick Anderson steal up to be more of a knock on Jordan than it should've been. That team really didn't have the size to compete against the Magic. Jordan came in much more focused and determined the next year, but people are right. Jordan was more or less back, at least more so than Rose.

[Pnjguy]

I'm still at the phase where i'm happy he's playing games. I'll say all-star break next year.

[NZB2323]

He also had the worst turnover to assist ratio in his playoff career of practically 1:1. And he wasn't coming off of 2 major knee injuries. My point is that the OP is correct where people stating that Rose is definitely done after just 38 games is silly. Like it's impossible that Rose plays better than he has been playing.

[maynardo]

The scary part about DRose is that his efficiency is going down as the season goes by, I was expecting the complete opposite. Anyways if the season continues like this and he stinks in the playoffs than prolly the word 'done' can be thrown. Not before that.

2 and half years off plus two bad knees is a lot to deal with.

[coldfish]

I don't think he's done from a physical stand point. He for the most part looks just as quick as before. He's probably not as explosive, but I think physically he looks great.

Mentally, he's a mess out there, and that's why I want the Bulls to get off the Derrick Rose train as soon as possible. I don't trust him, I don't think he's much of a leader, and I'm disappointed in how much of a dumb basketball player he has become. A good point guard know that you have to get your teammates involved, especially if you're struggling offensively. Instead, he's seems determined to keep shooting bad threes.

I've often said that I wouldn't want an "old" Rose here, because as soon as he physically declines, he'll be a bad basketball player. You can sort of see why now. He doesn't have a go-to move, can't shoot, and doesn't get teammates involved. In my opinion, the Bulls would be better off getting out of his contract and investing all that money is someone else.

+1.

I think that physically he is about as far back as he is going to get. Its all mental at this point and its somewhat worrisome that the people around him don't seem to see it that way. If team rose never figures it out, Rose is done already. That said, the light switch for him could come on at any time. Could be Wednesday or it could be some random Wednesday in 2016. I don't think there is really a cut off date for it.

That said, I really don't think a highly paid 30 year old Rose is something any team wants. As such, Rose's done date should be no later than in 2017 when his contract is up.

[bullslas]

After next season

[NecessaryEvil]

Excellent thread..

[HomoSapien]

Excellent thread..

None of this. Feel free to participate or don't, but there's no in-between.