What is so different from last year?

[bwgood77]

See that's the thing. All those teams are actually playing their 24 & under young players. Their developing those guys with actual game minutes while we bench ours (besides Len).

I'm not saying we should start our guys but trades should have been already which would have cleared up back up playing time for guys like Goodwin, Warren and maybe Bullock and Ennis as well.

I can see the Suns ending up in a Bucks Tobias Harris type situation. We'll end up losing one of these young kids because we never gave them playing time and they could go on to play well elsewhere making us regret it.

We are playing a 2nd year guy considerable minutes. Len is playing considerable minutes for a 2nd year player. Favors played 21 minutes his 2nd year and 23 his 3rd year and they were still playing Millsap and Jefferson while those guys developed. Kanter played 13 his 1st year and 15 his 2nd year.

We played Markieff 19 and 22 his first two years.

Hayward played less than 17 as a rookie.

It just depends on the team's situation.

I'm not sure what you guys want. It seems like you want Hornacek gone because you think this team is good enough to be winning a lot more games and make the playoffs, and then you also complain we are not playing the rookies a bunch. Makes zero sense.

[bwgood77]

The other thing is, everyone thinks that everyone else's team is better off. I went and checked out Memphis's game thread (which was kind of pathetic) and everyone was talking about how **** they played. I think this board is too focused on negatives. When we win, we're still terrible and lucky to have won that game. We lose, proof of how terrible we are. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching sports that way.

Didn't their game thread only have like 5 posts and 4 of them were by the same guy?

[RunDogGun]

The other thing is, everyone thinks that everyone else's team is better off. I went and checked out Memphis's game thread (which was kind of pathetic) and everyone was talking about how **** they played. I think this board is too focused on negatives. When we win, we're still terrible and lucky to have won that game. We lose, proof of how terrible we are. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching sports that way.

Didn't their game thread only have like 5 posts and 4 of them were by the same guy?

Was it one of the refs from our game?

[In Len We Trust]

He's going to make mistakes, but I would bet if you did a poll of fans on a regular news site, Suns fans or general nba fans he would get somewhere around a 95% approval rating.

I completely agree with you, and at the same time I absolutely do not care. The fans are idiots. The fans voted Kobe into the all star game. If you haven't noticed, the average casual NBA fan is very, very stupid. Casual fans of the NFL and MLB are much more intelligent. People do not recognize good or bad coaching, it is all about reputation.

It is only the people with vastly unrealistic expectations that are thinking he should be fired or something. And I only see about two people here talking about him much. A few have joined your bandwagon but most just decide not to comment at all.

Unrealistic expectations? Do you realize that we have a winning record in close games when Len finishes and a horrible losing record when we go small at the 4 and 5 positions? Turn half of those losses into wins and we are a 5-6 seed. That's on the (terrible) coach.

Sure people will comment that certain decisions are frustrating, but you also have to remember it may have not worked about better had a different decision been made.

You could say the exact same thing for that play call by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. Doesn't make it any less stupid or better coaching.

He is also the pro who has played a number of years, been an assistant a number of years

I don't care

He's definitely made mistakes, but so have all coaches, even the very best ones.

Can't think of a coach other than Vaughn and Corbin that make more.

[bwgood77]

He's going to make mistakes, but I would bet if you did a poll of fans on a regular news site, Suns fans or general nba fans he would get somewhere around a 95% approval rating.

I completely agree with you, and at the same time I absolutely do not care. The fans are idiots. The fans voted Kobe into the all star game. If you haven't noticed, the average casual NBA fan is very, very stupid. Casual fans of the NFL and MLB are much more intelligent. People do not recognize good or bad coaching, it is all about reputation.

It is only the people with vastly unrealistic expectations that are thinking he should be fired or something. And I only see about two people here talking about him much. A few have joined your bandwagon but most just decide not to comment at all.

Unrealistic expectations? Do you realize that we have a winning record in close games when Len finishes and a horrible losing record when we go small at the 4 and 5 positions? Turn half of those wins into losses and we are a 5-6 seed. That's on the (terrible) coach.

Sure people will comment that certain decisions are frustrating, but you also have to remember it may have not worked about better had a different decision been made.

You could say the exact same thing for that play call by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. Doesn't make it any less stupid or better coaching.

He is also the pro who has played a number of years, been an assistant a number of years

I don't care

He's definitely made mistakes, but so have all coaches, even the very best ones.

Can't think of a coach other than Vaughn and Corbin that make more.

Yes, I understand you are pretty set in your opinions. I think if you did a poll of the media, the experts, the analysts, the front offices, and the other coaches and players, he would be highly rated too.

I'm sure you think everyone is an idiot though except for yourself and those who agree with you.

[Revived]

See that's the thing. All those teams are actually playing their 24 & under young players. Their developing those guys with actual game minutes while we bench ours (besides Len).

I'm not saying we should start our guys but trades should have been already which would have cleared up back up playing time for guys like Goodwin, Warren and maybe Bullock and Ennis as well.

I can see the Suns ending up in a Bucks Tobias Harris type situation. We'll end up losing one of these young kids because we never gave them playing time and they could go on to play well elsewhere making us regret it.

We are playing a 2nd year guy considerable minutes. Len is playing considerable minutes for a 2nd year player. Favors played 21 minutes his 2nd year and 23 his 3rd year and they were still playing Millsap and Jefferson while those guys developed. Kanter played 13 his 1st year and 15 his 2nd year.

We played Markieff 19 and 22 his first two years.

Hayward played less than 17 as a rookie.

It just depends on the team's situation.

I'm not sure what you guys want. It seems like you want Hornacek gone because you think this team is good enough to be winning a lot more games and make the playoffs, and then you also complain we are not playing the rookies a bunch. Makes zero sense.

I think I've been clear in what I want. I want them to either be a non playoff team by developing rookies or if their set on not playing the rookies, then they better be good enough to make playoffs at least.

Kerrsed has said the same thing in a better way if you didn't understand what I meant. I'l try to find his post.

[In Len We Trust]

He's going to make mistakes, but I would bet if you did a poll of fans on a regular news site, Suns fans or general nba fans he would get somewhere around a 95% approval rating.

I completely agree with you, and at the same time I absolutely do not care. The fans are idiots. The fans voted Kobe into the all star game. If you haven't noticed, the average casual NBA fan is very, very stupid. Casual fans of the NFL and MLB are much more intelligent. People do not recognize good or bad coaching, it is all about reputation.

It is only the people with vastly unrealistic expectations that are thinking he should be fired or something. And I only see about two people here talking about him much. A few have joined your bandwagon but most just decide not to comment at all.

Unrealistic expectations? Do you realize that we have a winning record in close games when Len finishes and a horrible losing record when we go small at the 4 and 5 positions? Turn half of those wins into losses and we are a 5-6 seed. That's on the (terrible) coach.

Sure people will comment that certain decisions are frustrating, but you also have to remember it may have not worked about better had a different decision been made.

You could say the exact same thing for that play call by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. Doesn't make it any less stupid or better coaching.

He is also the pro who has played a number of years, been an assistant a number of years

I don't care

He's definitely made mistakes, but so have all coaches, even the very best ones.

Can't think of a coach other than Vaughn and Corbin that make more.

Yes, I understand you are pretty set in your opinions. I think if you did a poll of the media, the experts, the analysts, the front offices, and the other coaches and players, he would be highly rated too.

I'm sure you think everyone is an idiot though except for yourself and those who agree with you.

I agree. They absolutely would. However, the media and experts never watch the Suns. The average one has seen 2-3 Suns games this year.

You can't compare the opinions of people that don't watch the games and pay attention to the coaching to someone that does. I know you watch the games, but perhaps you either don't pay attention to the coaching or are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I get it, Hornacek is a likable guy. Good player for the Suns, good guy to have around, but you can't be so biased when you look at what he does.

You also don't want to go against the popular opinion. Hornacek is currently viewed as a good coach by the majority, and you can't really accept the unpopular opinion.

[bwgood77]

Kerrsed has said the same thing in a better way if you didn't understand what I meant. I'l try to find his post.

I'm sure I've seen it. It's just too close to call to make that determination right now though. They need to at least wait until the trade deadline and see if we can make a good deal or if we are going to stand pat.

Believe me, if I was a TWolves fan or Jazz fan, I'd be really happy watching the young guys and stuff, and I'd love to see Ennis and Warren and Len playing a ton.

But I know this team wants to make the playoffs and they are not going to back off of that. At least until they are mathematically eliminated.

But at the same time, I don't think those guys are getting worse by playing in the D league or just practicing with the guys and stuff. They are probably working on improving what they need to improve to make a bigger impact when they get a chance to play.

[bwgood77]

I agree. They absolutely would. However, the media and experts never watch the Suns. The average one has seen 2-3 Suns games this year.

You can't compare the opinions of people that don't watch the games and pay attention to the coaching to someone that does. I know you watch the games, but perhaps you either don't pay attention to the coaching or are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I get it, Hornacek is a likable guy. Good player for the Suns, good guy to have around, but you can't be so biased when you look at what he does.

You also don't want to go against the popular opinion. Hornacek is currently viewed as a good coach by the majority, and you can't really accept the unpopular opinion.

I have ZERO problem going against the popular opinion. I understand some of the frustrating things Hornacek does. I watch A LOT of teams in football AND basketball and I see tons of boneheaded decisions all the time.

I look at everything relatively speaking.

I think many of the guys like Lowe, Simmons, Elhassan, Pelton and others watch the Suns quite a bit. And the national guys see their fair share of every game because they are in studio with them all on.

A lot of the basketball guys watch ALL the games on replay FF. I follow many of them on twitter and see them comment about these things on occasion.

I agree about Len. I want him to get more minutes. I don't want to see Plumlee play...maybe sparingly if needed. Len seems to be a MAJOR disruption on defense when he is in there.

But I don't think we are seeing things that Hornacek isn't. I think he is doing things for a reason. I think if we were able to sit down and interview him we would probably come away with some understanding and be like "Oh, ok....I kind of understand his thinking."

I think he is a lot smarter at this stuff than anyone posting here. Even you, believe it or not.

[TASTIC]

Dragic has taken a backseat and it's affected his mood/body language etc, you can see he isn't enjoying himself this year.

Green has obviously been hit hard as well, the 3-guard rotation excludes him as obviously IT has taken a large chunk of his PT.

I really don't think it's hard to see - Thomas for all his value as a scorer and a shooter and the basic value of his contract, has not worked.

It's nothing against him, but he (Hornacek needs to take some of the blame here) minimises what both Dragic (ball-handling, creating, scoring) and Green (heat-check, scoring) do best - which is what carried us for stretches last year.

I've got another trade idea so will put that in the trade thread.

[MrMiyagi]

I agree. They absolutely would. However, the media and experts never watch the Suns. The average one has seen 2-3 Suns games this year.

You can't compare the opinions of people that don't watch the games and pay attention to the coaching to someone that does. I know you watch the games, but perhaps you either don't pay attention to the coaching or are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I get it, Hornacek is a likable guy. Good player for the Suns, good guy to have around, but you can't be so biased when you look at what he does.

You also don't want to go against the popular opinion. Hornacek is currently viewed as a good coach by the majority, and you can't really accept the unpopular opinion.

I have ZERO problem going against the popular opinion. I understand some of the frustrating things Hornacek does. I watch A LOT of teams in football AND basketball and I see tons of boneheaded decisions all the time.

I look at everything relatively speaking.

I think many of the guys like Lowe, Simmons, Elhassan, Pelton and others watch the Suns quite a bit. And the national guys see their fair share of every game because they are in studio with them all on.

A lot of the basketball guys watch ALL the games on replay FF. I follow many of them on twitter and see them comment about these things on occasion.

I agree about Len. I want him to get more minutes. I don't want to see Plumlee play...maybe sparingly if needed. Len seems to be a MAJOR disruption on defense when he is in there.

But I don't think we are seeing things that Hornacek isn't. I think he is doing things for a reason. I think if we were able to sit down and interview him we would probably come away with some understanding and be like "Oh, ok....I kind of understand his thinking."

I think he is a lot smarter at this stuff than anyone posting here. Even you, believe it or not.

Bwgood, you talk so much sense. I like it. I bet it stems from that U of A connection

[MrMiyagi]

Dragic has taken a backseat and it's affected his mood/body language etc, you can see he isn't enjoying himself this year.

Green has obviously been hit hard as well, the 3-guard rotation excludes him as obviously IT has taken a large chunk of his PT.

I really don't think it's hard to see - Thomas for all his value as a scorer and a shooter and the basic value of his contract, has not worked.

It's nothing against him, but he (Hornacek needs to take some of the blame here) minimises what both Dragic (ball-handling, creating, scoring) and Green (heat-check, scoring) do best - which is what carried us for stretches last year.

I've got another trade idea so will put that in the trade thread.

That's fine, but we shouldn't be throwing out the guy who got us to 48 wins last season when it's more than likely IT is the root of a lot of problems. Not saying he's a perfect coach, but I don't see a proven better option that Horny.

[TASTIC]

Dragic has taken a backseat and it's affected his mood/body language etc, you can see he isn't enjoying himself this year.

Green has obviously been hit hard as well, the 3-guard rotation excludes him as obviously IT has taken a large chunk of his PT.

I really don't think it's hard to see - Thomas for all his value as a scorer and a shooter and the basic value of his contract, has not worked.

It's nothing against him, but he (Hornacek needs to take some of the blame here) minimises what both Dragic (ball-handling, creating, scoring) and Green (heat-check, scoring) do best - which is what carried us for stretches last year.

I've got another trade idea so will put that in the trade thread.

That's fine, but we shouldn't be throwing out the guy who got us to 48 wins last season when it's more than likely IT is the root of a lot of problems. Not saying he's a perfect coach, but I don't see a proven better option that Horny.

I'm not saying throw Horny out at all, but I'm saying IT doesn't 'insert himself' into the game - Horny needed to MAKE the adjustments and see that yes, IT carried us in the 4th - but only on ONE end - Tucker should have come in whenever there was a stop in the game and we needed defense/rebounds.

[MrMiyagi]

Dragic has taken a backseat and it's affected his mood/body language etc, you can see he isn't enjoying himself this year.

Green has obviously been hit hard as well, the 3-guard rotation excludes him as obviously IT has taken a large chunk of his PT.

I really don't think it's hard to see - Thomas for all his value as a scorer and a shooter and the basic value of his contract, has not worked.

It's nothing against him, but he (Hornacek needs to take some of the blame here) minimises what both Dragic (ball-handling, creating, scoring) and Green (heat-check, scoring) do best - which is what carried us for stretches last year.

I've got another trade idea so will put that in the trade thread.

That's fine, but we shouldn't be throwing out the guy who got us to 48 wins last season when it's more than likely IT is the root of a lot of problems. Not saying he's a perfect coach, but I don't see a proven better option that Horny.

I'm not saying throw Horny out at all, but I'm saying IT doesn't 'insert himself' into the game - Horny needed to MAKE the adjustments and see that yes, IT carried us in the 4th - but only on ONE end - Tucker should have come in whenever there was a stop in the game and we needed defense/rebounds.

I agree, but there are people who want to oust the coach without the best case for doing so or a better alternative option. Like it or not, IT is also more consistent than Green is offensively and outclasses Tucker on that end. We weren't getting buckets, send it the bucket squad. Ideally, Len will continue to progress and be able to handle himself better against the Gasols of the league and we find a better option at the starting 3 spot, but right now our 4 best players are the 3 point guards and Kieff. Maybe Wright should've been in the game or PJ or Len, but would they've really gotten us even close to beating Memphis? I guess you could argue yes, but it's not a sure fire yes, at least in my book.

[Frank Lee]

........ When we win, we're still terrible and lucky to have won that game. We lose, proof of how terrible we are. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching sports that way.

(yagi? you again? hahaha)

This has been the least enjoyable to watch winning team I have followed. And IMO, its not but one 6 or 7 game tailspin away from imploding. Something is not right internally.

Coach has asked these guys to buy in to a system devised after we woke up one day and had three dynamic PGs. I'll chicken or egg this one right now. I think Munchkin-ball was created to accommodate the 'safety signing' of IT. Once Bled inked up longterm, we had to honor the promise to IT with minutes and involvement, else it could hinder future FA dealings. If Bled took the QO, his butt would have been traded by now. The curveball the FO may not have anticipated was Dragic throwing out a 'wtf? I'll gladly go elsewhere' comment.

So, I think the main difference is we have tweaked our game plan to accommodate our roster and have implemented an offense based on shoot if you have a open look, and plattered it to some voracious chuckers. We pushed Dragic into the corner, literally, and have cemented Rooks on the bench. Our offense seems confused, but gets bailed out with ISO ball.

Last yr, we were a pick and roll team.... this yr ???? Not so much.

[Calvin Klein]

Dragic has taken a backseat and it's affected his mood/body language etc, you can see he isn't enjoying himself this year.

Green has obviously been hit hard as well, the 3-guard rotation excludes him as obviously IT has taken a large chunk of his PT.

I really don't think it's hard to see - Thomas for all his value as a scorer and a shooter and the basic value of his contract, has not worked.

It's nothing against him, but he (Hornacek needs to take some of the blame here) minimises what both Dragic (ball-handling, creating, scoring) and Green (heat-check, scoring) do best - which is what carried us for stretches last year.

I've got another trade idea so will put that in the trade thread.

Absolutely.

[TASTIC]

........ When we win, we're still terrible and lucky to have won that game. We lose, proof of how terrible we are. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy watching sports that way.

(yagi? you again? hahaha)

This has been the least enjoyable to watch winning team I have followed. And IMO, its not but one 6 or 7 game tailspin away from imploding. Something is not right internally.

Coach has asked these guys to buy in to a system devised after we woke up one day and had three dynamic PGs. I'll chicken or egg this one right now. I think Munchkin-ball was created to accommodate the 'safety signing' of IT. Once Bled inked up longterm, we had to honor the promise to IT with minutes and involvement, else it could hinder future FA dealings. If Bled took the QO, his butt would have been traded by now. The curveball the FO may not have anticipated was Dragic throwing out a 'wtf? I'll gladly go elsewhere' comment.

So, I think the main difference is we have tweaked our game plan to accommodate our roster and have implemented an offense based on shoot if you have a open look, and plattered it to some voracious chuckers. We pushed Dragic into the corner, literally, and have cemented Rooks on the bench. Our offense seems confused, but gets bailed out with ISO ball.

Last yr, we were a pick and roll team.... this yr ???? Not so much.

Exactly, it's ALL iso/hero ball apart from fast breaks. Or that stupid weave we run at the top of the key!!!

This is a bizarre team. I feel we're as likely to win 12 straight as we are lose 12 straight.

Dragic isn't happy, you can see it. He barely cheers, he looks disinterested at times and he won't be back if this is it for the next 2-3 years. Get the ball in his hands, that's how our unit rolls - with him and Bledsoe taking turns and Green on the other wing.

To his credit, he hasn't pouted and he's looked much more like a leader since the tech he got - seeing him calming Markieff down was something we hadn't really seen yet, which speaks volumes about him.

[bwgood77]

I agree. They absolutely would. However, the media and experts never watch the Suns. The average one has seen 2-3 Suns games this year.

You can't compare the opinions of people that don't watch the games and pay attention to the coaching to someone that does. I know you watch the games, but perhaps you either don't pay attention to the coaching or are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I get it, Hornacek is a likable guy. Good player for the Suns, good guy to have around, but you can't be so biased when you look at what he does.

You also don't want to go against the popular opinion. Hornacek is currently viewed as a good coach by the majority, and you can't really accept the unpopular opinion.

I have ZERO problem going against the popular opinion. I understand some of the frustrating things Hornacek does. I watch A LOT of teams in football AND basketball and I see tons of boneheaded decisions all the time.

I look at everything relatively speaking.

I think many of the guys like Lowe, Simmons, Elhassan, Pelton and others watch the Suns quite a bit. And the national guys see their fair share of every game because they are in studio with them all on.

A lot of the basketball guys watch ALL the games on replay FF. I follow many of them on twitter and see them comment about these things on occasion.

I agree about Len. I want him to get more minutes. I don't want to see Plumlee play...maybe sparingly if needed. Len seems to be a MAJOR disruption on defense when he is in there.

But I don't think we are seeing things that Hornacek isn't. I think he is doing things for a reason. I think if we were able to sit down and interview him we would probably come away with some understanding and be like "Oh, ok....I kind of understand his thinking."

I think he is a lot smarter at this stuff than anyone posting here. Even you, believe it or not.

Bwgood, you talk so much sense. I like it. I bet it stems from that U of A connection

That's probably it.

I also wonder that if we had started Len earlier in the season would he look as good as he does now? Or does he look as good as he does BECAUSE we made sure he was ready and that we started him and gave him more minutes because we knew he was mentally ready and his confidence wouldn't be impacted and he wouldn't be overwhelmed.

[In Len We Trust]

I agree. They absolutely would. However, the media and experts never watch the Suns. The average one has seen 2-3 Suns games this year.

You can't compare the opinions of people that don't watch the games and pay attention to the coaching to someone that does. I know you watch the games, but perhaps you either don't pay attention to the coaching or are looking at it from a biased standpoint. I get it, Hornacek is a likable guy. Good player for the Suns, good guy to have around, but you can't be so biased when you look at what he does.

You also don't want to go against the popular opinion. Hornacek is currently viewed as a good coach by the majority, and you can't really accept the unpopular opinion.

I have ZERO problem going against the popular opinion. I understand some of the frustrating things Hornacek does. I watch A LOT of teams in football AND basketball and I see tons of boneheaded decisions all the time.

I look at everything relatively speaking.

I think many of the guys like Lowe, Simmons, Elhassan, Pelton and others watch the Suns quite a bit. And the national guys see their fair share of every game because they are in studio with them all on.

A lot of the basketball guys watch ALL the games on replay FF. I follow many of them on twitter and see them comment about these things on occasion.

I agree about Len. I want him to get more minutes. I don't want to see Plumlee play...maybe sparingly if needed. Len seems to be a MAJOR disruption on defense when he is in there.

But I don't think we are seeing things that Hornacek isn't. I think he is doing things for a reason. I think if we were able to sit down and interview him we would probably come away with some understanding and be like "Oh, ok....I kind of understand his thinking."

I think he is a lot smarter at this stuff than anyone posting here. Even you, believe it or not.

So he is doing things for an apparently good reason, even though nobody here, including his defenders like you can't even come up with a possible explanation?

I see no reason as of right now to trust Hornacek when he is directly responsible for half of the Suns losses this season.

[In Len We Trust]

Could not agree more with Frank Lee. I've been saying it all season, this is the most frustrating, boneheaded, bipolar, and unenjoyable >.500 team I have ever seen in my entire life of watching sports. I actually enjoyed watching the 2012-2013 Suns more than this team. It is so strange because I found last years team to be the most enjoyable Suns team other than the 2007 Suns.

Every time we have a 10 point lead I can literally FEEL the meltdown coming. Every time it happens I am completely positive and would bet money that a Suns drought is coming.

Death, taxes, and the 2014-2015 Suns not playing a consistent 48 minute game.