PG - Who's to blame?

[Red8911]

Oh there is a lot of blame to go around. First let's start with Gar Forman for failing to make a move to address our glaring hole on the wing. The example people keep citing is Cleveland acquiring Mozgov to fill their hole in the paint. Now they are rolling and viable candidates to win the East. Forman's been sitting on his ass watching us spiral out of contention and he should be held accountable for once in his life. We'll never win a title with his over the top conservatism.

The players should also be held accountable. Rose is a shell of his former self and his defense is putrid. Our guys are sloppy, unmotivated, and continually make poor decisions. And Thibs has a big part in this too. Gar hasn't done him any favors by not providing legitimate wing players for him -- but Hinrich is one of the NBA's worst players and he still gets burn. Moore is no prime Ray Allen but if you have to play him to keep Hinrich off the floor, then do it.

Moves have to be made. Whether it's Gar getting canned or trading Taj for a wing player -- do it. Maybe we'll have some flexibility when Rose and Noah expire and we can build around Butler and Mirotic.

I disagree with management part, they have the best and deepest roster in the east, no reason for them to be playing like this.Thibs is the first one to blame, he has to figure out a way to make things work on both ends. Theres enough talent to be a contender witbout a trade, its not like hes working with a bunch of scrubs...

But we don't have legitimate wing players beyond Butler and the injured MJD. Look, I've been highly critical of Thibs and his psychopathic substitution patters and inability to make in-game adjustments, but he hasn't been given legitimate wing players. Unless, of course, McDermott is legit and Thibs is simply freezing him out to spite Gar.

But I don't care who the alternative is -- whether its Snell or Moore -- Hinrich has NO REASON to play. Ever.

Why the hawks have better wing options? Imo we have the best and deepest roster.Thibs cant have any excuses.We got plenty of 3pt shooters, mike, doug, brooks, mirotic. Plenty of defenders.The front court should be one of the best in the league, cmon now many teams would wish they had these 4 bigs we got.Then ofcourse 3 stars..Theres no reason we shouldn't have been the best in the east, I dont wana hear the wing or kirk complaints, we have more than enough.Thibs and coaching staff have to get their sht together and fix things.If the struggles keep up I wonder who management blames first coach or players.

[Red8911]

Oh there is a lot of blame to go around. First let's start with Gar Forman for failing to make a move to address our glaring hole on the wing. The example people keep citing is Cleveland acquiring Mozgov to fill their hole in the paint. Now they are rolling and viable candidates to win the East. Forman's been sitting on his ass watching us spiral out of contention and he should be held accountable for once in his life. We'll never win a title with his over the top conservatism.

The players should also be held accountable. Rose is a shell of his former self and his defense is putrid. Our guys are sloppy, unmotivated, and continually make poor decisions. And Thibs has a big part in this too. Gar hasn't done him any favors by not providing legitimate wing players for him -- but Hinrich is one of the NBA's worst players and he still gets burn. Moore is no prime Ray Allen but if you have to play him to keep Hinrich off the floor, then do it.

Moves have to be made. Whether it's Gar getting canned or trading Taj for a wing player -- do it. Maybe we'll have some flexibility when Rose and Noah expire and we can build around Butler and Mirotic.

I disagree with management part, they have the best and deepest roster in the east, no reason for them to be playing like this.Thibs is the first one to blame, he has to figure out a way to make things work on both ends. Theres enough talent to be a contender witbout a trade, its not like hes working with a bunch of scrubs...

But we don't have legitimate wing players beyond Butler and the injured MJD. Look, I've been highly critical of Thibs and his psychopathic substitution patters and inability to make in-game adjustments, but he hasn't been given legitimate wing players. Unless, of course, McDermott is legit and Thibs is simply freezing him out to spite Gar.

But I don't care who the alternative is -- whether its Snell or Moore -- Hinrich has NO REASON to play. Ever.

Why the hawks have better wing options? Imo we have the best and deepest roster.Thibs cant have any excuses.We got plenty of 3pt shooters, mike, doug, brooks, mirotic. Plenty of defenders.The front court should be one of the best in the league, cmon now many teams would wish they had these 4 bigs we got.Then ofcourse 3 stars..Theres no reason we shouldn't have been the best in the east, I dont wana hear the wing or kirk complaints, we have more than enough.Thibs and coaching staff have to get their sht together and fix things.If the struggles keep up I wonder who management blames first coach or players.

[Red8911]

Oh there is a lot of blame to go around. First let's start with Gar Forman for failing to make a move to address our glaring hole on the wing. The example people keep citing is Cleveland acquiring Mozgov to fill their hole in the paint. Now they are rolling and viable candidates to win the East. Forman's been sitting on his ass watching us spiral out of contention and he should be held accountable for once in his life. We'll never win a title with his over the top conservatism.

The players should also be held accountable. Rose is a shell of his former self and his defense is putrid. Our guys are sloppy, unmotivated, and continually make poor decisions. And Thibs has a big part in this too. Gar hasn't done him any favors by not providing legitimate wing players for him -- but Hinrich is one of the NBA's worst players and he still gets burn. Moore is no prime Ray Allen but if you have to play him to keep Hinrich off the floor, then do it.

Moves have to be made. Whether it's Gar getting canned or trading Taj for a wing player -- do it. Maybe we'll have some flexibility when Rose and Noah expire and we can build around Butler and Mirotic.

I disagree with management part, they have the best and deepest roster in the east, no reason for them to be playing like this.Thibs is the first one to blame, he has to figure out a way to make things work on both ends. Theres enough talent to be a contender witbout a trade, its not like hes working with a bunch of scrubs...

But we don't have legitimate wing players beyond Butler and the injured MJD. Look, I've been highly critical of Thibs and his psychopathic substitution patters and inability to make in-game adjustments, but he hasn't been given legitimate wing players. Unless, of course, McDermott is legit and Thibs is simply freezing him out to spite Gar.

But I don't care who the alternative is -- whether its Snell or Moore -- Hinrich has NO REASON to play. Ever.

Why the hawks have better wing options? Imo we have the best and deepest roster.Thibs cant have any excuses.We got plenty of 3pt shooters, mike, doug, brooks, mirotic. Plenty of defenders.The front court should be one of the best in the league, cmon now many teams would wish they had these 4 bigs we got.Then ofcourse 3 stars..Theres no reason we shouldn't have been the best in the east, I dont wana hear the wing or kirk complaints, we have more than enough.Thibs and coaching staff have to get their sht together and fix things.If the struggles keep up I wonder who management blames first coach or players.

[Red8911]

Thibs' teams have been ranked in the top 3 defensively for each of the last 4 years. This year we're 19th, using the same defensive principles. It ain't coaching.

Problem is he cant coach the same way he did last yr.This is a new team with more talent.

[drbg43]

Shore up the starting unit defence, bring Noah back to his comfort zone, and shore up the second unit offence. Why isn't this happening?

Because offense is nice. We won't get anything from our frontcourt with just Noah and Taj. Pau gives Taj much better spacing.

I don't know. Noah and Gibson seem to play really well together, and are a better fit for the Bull's grind it out, bring the energy style, centered around defense. The only times these Bulls have had any success (over the past few years) was when we were leading the league in defense. That core is still there. I don't think Pau's offense makes up for what we lose on defense and the pace we lose in our game in general. We can get that same offense (probably much more efficiently) with him getting good run off the bench and against second units. He would torch them.

[errisal]

Rose doesn't have to pass to Jimmy or Kirk instead of taking 3s. He has the option to get other shots, like the mid range 2, which he hit 8 of yesterday.

Rose is choosing to settle for 3s. That is on him, not his teammates.

I concur on the mid range 2. All the Bull homers seem to believe that the only two options Rose has is to drive the lane to the basket or launch his horrible 3's. Too many times he beats his man off the dribble and has an easy chance for a pull up mid range 2 and possible and 1, yet he drives into two big men and avoids the contact while trying to force up the shot. At other times he just immediately walks up into an early 3 pt jack that leads to the defense being in trouble. I wouldn't hate watching this guy if he would simply adjust his game to what the defense is giving him and that would be the mid range jumper. I actually believe he is a very good short range shooter. I also believe his passing would improve because he would start to draw the big defender and that would allow passing lanes that he could exploit. Until he learns the game of basketball I will always believe he is a terrible player who is just athletic.

[GetBuLLish]

Just a quick friendly reminder that Rose has led the team in +/- in four of the last seven games. And he was second in one of the games. So in five of the last seven games, Rose has had the best or second best +/- on the team. And this is even in light of the fact that he has the best or second best backup on the team.

Because of your false belief that last year was a worse squad

On talent, the 2013-14 Bulls are no match with the 2014-15. It's not even a discussion. We have heaps more talented guys in here than what we do now.

C'mon.

Unfortunately (emphasis on 'unfortunately'), you are sorely mistaken. If you do a position by position analysis, last year's team is easily better.

Center: Last year Noah was one of the best centers in the game and by far better than this year's Pau Gasol.
Power Forward: Last year's Boozer was a better power forward than this year's Noah. That's hardly saying much since Noah is arguably the worst offensive power forward in the entire NBA right now and his overall negative impact on the team is impossible to underestimate.
Small Forward: Last year Dunleavy is about 100x better than Snell/Hinrich (whomever Thibs decides to give the starting spot to; and I am excluding this year's Dunleavy considering he hasn't played in like two months)
Shooting Guard: : This is the only position where we've improved and that's through Butler's emergence.

So out of our starting lineup we've gotten worse at three out of the four starting spots.

And it doesn't get pretty when you look at the bench: Hinrich who has regressed significantly from last year, Taj who has regressed from last year (no longer the dominant force he once was, for whatever mystifying reason I still can't figure out), Mirotic who has been a D-league level player for about two months now, McDermott who has been absolutely dreadful. Only Brooks has been an improvement from last year, and he's essentially taken over DJ's spot and they are both about a wash.

And this isn't even getting into how the players mesh with one another, because once you include that, 2013-14 wins in a landslide.

[AirP.]

I guess it would be piling on by pointing out that Derrick Rose is shooting at the highest rate in his whole career while having the lowest rate of assists(if you exclude his 10 games last year). Those numbers with half the starters not named Derrick Rose being current all-stars. Why is that ok for anyone when D.Rose is shooting so bad?

PER36 Derrick is taking 20.1 shots, getting 5.6 assists while missing 4.7 3s. Why are so many people OK with Rose doing this while he's not near being 100% back and shooting badly?

Hard to get assists when all of the players go one on one. He also doesn't have Kyle Korver out there receiving his assists like before he torn his ACL.

Well, when you increase the rate you shoot, you decrease the ability to get assists. This is the most offensive talented group of teammates Derrick Rose has had now yet he's shooting at a rate more in his career then ever before.

I remember hearing D.Rose needs help, well he has some help yet he's shooting 1 more shot per36 than his MVP year. It's absolutely nuts to do that.

[Stratmaster]

Derrick's 3 pt shot numbers are a problem but that's the least of the worries. Look at when he takes a lot of those 3s or who is there on the court with him or where he is with the ball.

He would easily cut down on his shots if he didn't have both of Noah snd Kirk with him. Again, Jimmy was missing 3s in the 1st quarter and struggling against Harden. Noah and Kirk(Snell) cannot be on the court with an already 3 pt challenged Jimmy and Derrick.

The most important change Thibs can make is breaking up the Noah/Gasol combo and getting Dunleavy into the strarting lineup before firing coaches or trading anyone.

It is about not conceding 1st and 3rd quarters every game and fighting like crazy later. Or, expecting the bench to get a lead or bring you back every game.

It isn't the only worry, but it also isn't the least. He is taking bad 3's AND taking them at really, really bad times. Like when the bulls have just gotten themselves back from one of those first quarters you mention, are back within a few points, and have momentum. Then he launches a quick and bad 3, the other team takes the long rebound and immediately scores...end of momentum. He is, quite frankly, being plain stupid.

The point is why are the Bulls losing games and I don't think it is because of Rose's 3s. It is more because of defense and lack of shooting amongst other Bulls. Off-course, this is not something which can be measured.

You don't know if he passed it to Kirk or Jimmy, they would have made those shots. Again, look at when and why he is taking some of those 3s

What I can see is observing the situation, Rose looks like a reluctant 3 pt shooter many times. Off-course, he takes some bad 3s but that doesn't mean those caused the losses. Give him a Dunleavy and see if he takes those bad shots or not...then we can analyze why he is doing it.

I'm not saying it is THE reason. I am saying it is ONE of the reasons. Rose was taking bad 3's with MDJ also. It isn't just what might have happened on the 1 possession. It affects the pace of the game, the momentum of the game, and the mindset of everyone else on the court. When your bigs hustle to get into the offensive set, only to have Rose launch an early 3 which results in a long rebound and having to sprint back the other way it eventually affects the approach of the team on the floor.

The Bulls are generally superior to other teams in the halfcourt. The Bulls need to run when it can get them easy baskets at the other end. However, they do not need to up the pace of the game by launching bad 3's.

[chrispatrick]

Derrick's 3 pt shot numbers are a problem but that's the least of the worries. Look at when he takes a lot of those 3s or who is there on the court with him or where he is with the ball.

He would easily cut down on his shots if he didn't have both of Noah snd Kirk with him. Again, Jimmy was missing 3s in the 1st quarter and struggling against Harden. Noah and Kirk(Snell) cannot be on the court with an already 3 pt challenged Jimmy and Derrick.

The most important change Thibs can make is breaking up the Noah/Gasol combo and getting Dunleavy into the strarting lineup before firing coaches or trading anyone.

It is about not conceding 1st and 3rd quarters every game and fighting like crazy later. Or, expecting the bench to get a lead or bring you back every game.

It isn't the only worry, but it also isn't the least. He is taking bad 3's AND taking them at really, really bad times. Like when the bulls have just gotten themselves back from one of those first quarters you mention, are back within a few points, and have momentum. Then he launches a quick and bad 3, the other team takes the long rebound and immediately scores...end of momentum. He is, quite frankly, being plain stupid.

The point is why are the Bulls losing games and I don't think it is because of Rose's 3s. It is more because of defense and lack of shooting amongst other Bulls. Off-course, this is not something which can be measured.

You don't know if he passed it to Kirk or Jimmy, they would have made those shots. Again, look at when and why he is taking some of those 3s

What I can see is observing the situation, Rose looks like a reluctant 3 pt shooter many times. Off-course, he takes some bad 3s but that doesn't mean those caused the losses. Give him a Dunleavy and see if he takes those bad shots or not...then we can analyze why he is doing it.

Yes, it's clear there are other problems with the Bulls. But how about correcting the most easily correctable one which is to stop taking an absurd amount of 3s? It seems like such an easy fix to what certainly is part of the problem.

You say look at when and why he is taking those 3s. He takes tons of them with lots of time on the shot clock (even when we're trying to bleed out the clock with a decent lead, which has happened a couple times in the last two weeks), that's what I'm seeing. Sure it's not guaranteed that the other guys would make those shots that Derrick's passing up... but what we do know is that they'd certainly have a better percentage chance of making them (they couldn't possibly have a worse chance as Derrick has clearly been miles behind Jimmy and some other guys in efficiency).

The other players on the team would have to play great to make up for the fact that Derrick scores so few points based on the huge volume of possessions he consumes in a game through shots and turnovers. They're not playing great and we're losing. Derrick still has enough skill that he doesn't need to put us in those holes.

[kyrv]

maybe doug is just terrible in practice. you know like he was in the games when he played?

Maybe Kirk and Snell are just terrible in practice. You know like they are in games?

[kyrv]

If it's any team in the league that is screaming we need a upgrade and shake up in the roster....it's the bulls.

just about every team in the league is looking for an upgrade. now, a shakeup would potentially be beneficial, but certainly not automatically. it could actually end up taking away a guy the other players liked while giving us a mediocre player in return who is a constant reminder of what has gone wrong to date. depends on the deal

Other teams are eager to help the Bulls. Not sure why they won't make one of our made up trades.

[kyrv]

If it's any team in the league that is screaming we need a upgrade and shake up in the roster....it's the bulls.

just about every team in the league is looking for an upgrade. now, a shakeup would potentially be beneficial, but certainly not automatically. it could actually end up taking away a guy the other players liked while giving us a mediocre player in return who is a constant reminder of what has gone wrong to date. depends on the deal

Other teams are eager to help the Bulls. Not sure why they won't make one of our made up trades.

[weneeda2guard]

If it's any team in the league that is screaming we need a upgrade and shake up in the roster....it's the bulls.

just about every team in the league is looking for an upgrade. now, a shakeup would potentially be beneficial, but certainly not automatically. it could actually end up taking away a guy the other players liked while giving us a mediocre player in return who is a constant reminder of what has gone wrong to date. depends on the deal

Other teams are eager to help the Bulls. Not sure why they won't make one of our made up trades.

Yea I know, we can't do anything, our hands are tied, it always is, amazing how every other team that is willing can seem to make moves to improve even the ones with the best player in the league on it, but trade talk for bulls is bulls fans playing in the land of make believe making 2k15 deals

Maybe the move would be get rid of gar forman and John Paxson considering they relationships with everyone in the league is so soured that just what most teams would consider small tweaks to they roster become insurmountable obstacles that is out of our league. Smh.

[dice]

just about every team in the league is looking for an upgrade. now, a shakeup would potentially be beneficial, but certainly not automatically. it could actually end up taking away a guy the other players liked while giving us a mediocre player in return who is a constant reminder of what has gone wrong to date. depends on the deal

Other teams are eager to help the Bulls. Not sure why they won't make one of our made up trades.

Yea I know, we can't do anything, our hands are tied, it always is, amazing how every other team that is willing can seem to make moves to improve even the ones with the best player in the league on it, but trade talk for bulls is bulls fans playing in the land of make believe making 2k15 deals

Maybe the move would be get rid of gar forman and John Paxson considering they relationships with everyone in the league is so soured that just what most teams would consider small tweaks to they roster become insurmountable obstacles that is out of our league. Smh.

last i checked nobody here wanted j.r. smith or mozgov

[weneeda2guard]

Other teams are eager to help the Bulls. Not sure why they won't make one of our made up trades.

Yea I know, we can't do anything, our hands are tied, it always is, amazing how every other team that is willing can seem to make moves to improve even the ones with the best player in the league on it, but trade talk for bulls is bulls fans playing in the land of make believe making 2k15 deals

Maybe the move would be get rid of gar forman and John Paxson considering they relationships with everyone in the league is so soured that just what most teams would consider small tweaks to they roster become insurmountable obstacles that is out of our league. Smh.

last i checked nobody here wanted j.r. smith or mozgov

It appears we don't want anybody over here.

Even to the point of making moves for much needed wings, from teams like phoenix and Denver and Boston and Orlando who are basically begging teams from the league to take some of these guys off they hands, that is asking to much.

Of course teams with no hope of making the playoffs have no need to be aggressive in trades but a team who was picked by many to make it out the east, who now look like it won't be a shock to go home in the 1st rd should def be moving with a little bit more sense of urgency to make a improvement which is kinda clear after 50 games, we won't find that improvement as we currently stand.

We not trying to trade for durant or LaMarcus Aldridge or somebody, Wilson chandler, tobias harris, aaron afflalo, Gerald green, these guys are not so difficult to move because of huge contracts or so much value to they current team. They teams are begging playoff teams to come get them. But we won't trade a rookie who we crying about going to the d league when in all honesty when he played it looked like he needed the d league smh.

[kyrv]

Yea I know, we can't do anything, our hands are tied, it always is, amazing how every other team that is willing can seem to make moves to improve even the ones with the best player in the league on it, but trade talk for bulls is bulls fans playing in the land of make believe making 2k15 deals

Maybe the move would be get rid of gar forman and John Paxson considering they relationships with everyone in the league is so soured that just what most teams would consider small tweaks to they roster become insurmountable obstacles that is out of our league. Smh.

last i checked nobody here wanted j.r. smith or mozgov

It appears we don't want anybody over here.

Even to the point of making moves for much needed wings, from teams like phoenix and Denver and Boston and Orlando who are basically begging teams from the league to take some of these guys off they hands, that is asking to much.

Of course teams with no hope of making the playoffs have no need to be aggressive in trades but a team who was picked by many to make it out the east, who now look like it won't be a shock to go home in the 1st rd should def be moving with a little bit more sense of urgency to make a improvement which is kinda clear after 50 games, we won't find that improvement as we currently stand.

We not trying to trade for durant or LaMarcus Aldridge or somebody, Wilson chandler, tobias harris, aaron afflalo, Gerald green, these guys are not so difficult to move because of huge contracts or so much value to they current team. They teams are begging playoff teams to come get them. But we won't trade a rookie who we crying about going to the d league when in all honesty when he played it looked like he needed the d league smh.

What are these available trades?

Which team wants Dougie? He sucks. Trading a dnp-cd is the poster child of selling low as you probably know.

[pb-ceo]

maybe doug is just terrible in practice. you know like he was in the games when he played?

Maybe Kirk and Snell are just terrible in practice. You know like they are in games?

evidently these two are slightly less terrible than doug.

[Pnjguy]

A big issue is that Mirotic and McDermott were players that you wanted to play with Rose. Hasn't happened.

[Pnjguy]

Interesting to hear Kerr talking about making adjustments in preparation to playing the Hawks. Thibs n the other hand refuses to make any.