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The Push For George Karl [Merged]

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Re: The Push For George Karl 

Post#101 » by FFBlitzace » Sat Feb 7, 2015 5:30 am

Edual wrote:
I may have felt that way when I was 14 years old and just started watching the Magic on a nightly basis and was still learning NBA basketball. I wanted to be in the playoffs and feel relevant. But now, 13 years later, my philosophy has shifted. I feel like there's 1 winner and 29 losers every year. Winning 50 games and losing in the 2nd round has no value to me. If you're not that 1 winner, you need to do what you can do to become that 1 winner.


So I guess we should lose 60 games next season as well



If we lose 60 games next season, something has gone horribly wrong. I wasn't necessarily aiming to start a discussion on the concept and definition of tanking. I was simply saying, there's no actual value in assembling a roster with the goal of making the playoffs or competing for 50 wins. You're just gonna wind up as one of the 29 losers at the end of the year. Perhaps that's fine with people who value instant gratification, but it's incorrect from a competitive standpoint. From a personal standpoint, there is no wrong or right. Each individual is free to enjoy the game however they please. But ultimately, from a competitive standpoint, there can be only one goal, and that's winning the championship.
11/18/2017 - I have officially disowned Nikola Vucevic and branded him a loser.

- Skal Labissiere was my guy in 2016 pre-trade. Whoops, but I still believe.
- Malik Monk was my guy in 2017. Whoops(?)
- Mo Bamba was my guy in 2018. TBD.
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Re: 25 - TWENTY FIVE Years of Coaching Experience 

Post#102 » by ezzzp » Sat Feb 7, 2015 5:57 am

OrlandO wrote:
ezzzp wrote:those 50+ win seasons were with Alan Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, and Nene all entering or in the peak of their prime...

....this team doesn't even have 1/10 of that talent...

....coaches are only as good as the talent they are coaching - and right now we need way more talent to get even close to breaking the .500 mark much less 50+ regardless of who the coach is...

Except most of those guys were gone when he coached that team to their best record in franchise history. The year before, also without most of those guys, they had a near 50-win projected record (lockout season) as well. :wink:


He has always had stars or fringe stars combined with deep rosters with key experienced veterans:

2012-13 57-25 (A Iguodala, K Faried, T Lawson, D Galinari, A Miller, Mozgov, Chandler, Brewer)
2011-12 38-28 (K Faried, R Fernandez, Aflalo, Nene, Billups, JR Smith, Gallinari, Mozgov, Ty Lawson, Harrington)
2010-11 50-32 (Aflalo, Nene, Billups, JR Smith, Gallinari, Mozgov, Ty Lawson, Harrington) *Melo trade at deadline
2009-10 53-29 (Aflalo, Melo, KMart, Nene, Billups, JR Smith, Ty Lawson, Anderson)
2008-09 54-28 (Iverson, Melo, KMart, Nene, Billups, JR Smith, Anderson)
2007-08 50-32 (Iverson, Melo, KMart, Nene, Camby, JR Smith)
2006-07 45-37 (Iverson, Melo, KMart, Nene, A Miller, JR Smith)
2005-06 44-38 (Melo, Kmart, Nene, A Miller, Camby)
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Re: Re: 

Post#103 » by rcklsscognition » Sat Feb 7, 2015 6:04 am

Driguez wrote:Process this and that, part of the process is getting better, winning. What's definitely not part of that process is "tanking" as many of you are OK with it, I can't understand the thought process of wanting to lose to be part of a lottery which not only won't guarantee a number one pick, but it won't also guarantee that whoever you pick will pan out. I'm done with losing and I definitely do not have a loser mentality, which is what some of the posters on this board are being accustomed to.


What is your plan from tomorrow through to the start of next season for this team?
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Re: 25 - TWENTY FIVE Years of Coaching Experience 

Post#104 » by ezzzp » Sat Feb 7, 2015 6:38 am

LBPTarHeel27 wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
ezzzp wrote:those 50+ win seasons were with Alan Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, and Nene all entering or in the peak of their prime...

....this team doesn't even have 1/10 of that talent...

....coaches are only as good as the talent they are coaching - and right now we need way more talent to get even close to breaking the .500 mark much less 50+ regardless of who the coach is...

Except most of those guys were gone when he coached that team to their best record in franchise history. The year before, also without most of those guys, they had a near 50-win projected record (lockout season) as well. :wink:


I also love the line "all entering or in the peak of their prime".

Iverson: Prime was finished.
Martin: Prime was finished.
Camby: End of Prime.
Miller: End of Prime.
Nene: Hadn't entered Prime.


Iverson: Prime was finished. averaged 24.8ppg/18.4 PER, 26ppg/20.9PER, 18.7ppg/15.9PER in those years
Martin: Prime was finished. was 26-30yrs old while there, that is the definition of prime years
Camby: End of Prime. had PER of 19.9, 19.1, 17.2 , 18.7 in those years
Miller: End of Prime. during that time averaged 13to14ppg/7to8apg/16-18PER range
Nene: Hadn't entered Prime. was 23 to 29 years old during his years in Denver under Karl

2012-13 57-25 (A Iguodala 28, K Faried 23, T Lawson 25, D Galinari 24, A Miller 36, Mozgov 26)
2011-12 38-28 (Faried 22, Aflalo 26, Nene 29, Billups 34, Smith 26, Gallinari 23, Mozgov 25, Lawson 24, Harringtn 32)
2010-11 50-32 (Aflalo 25, Nene 28, Billups 33, JR Smith 25, Gallinari 22, Mozgov 24, Ty Lawson 23, Harrington)
2009-10 53-29 (Aflalo 24, Melo 25, KMart 30, Nene 27, Billups 32, JR Smith 24, Ty Lawson 22, Anderson)
2008-09 54-28 (Iverson 31, Melo 24, KMart 29 , Nene 26, Billups 31, JR Smith 23, Anderson)
2007-08 50-32 (Iverson 30, Melo 23, KMart 28, Nene 25, Camby 31, JR Smith 22)
2006-07 45-37 (Iverson 29, Melo 22, KMart 27, Nene 24, A Miller 30, Camby 30, JR Smith 21)
2005-06 44-38 (Melo 21, Kmart 26 , Nene 23, A Miller 29, Camby 29)
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#105 » by ezzzp » Sat Feb 7, 2015 6:47 am

Destin wrote:Call me (Please Use More Appropriate Word) but I hope we somehow turn things around in the 2nd half of the season. I guess I am an idiot for wanting the team that I love to win a few games. I guess I am an idiot for not wanting to watch my team tank.

I have watched every single game this season and I treat every single game like a Saturday football game... I just want to see our kids win. I don't care about the stupid lottery.

ezzzp would rather us suck, lose games, develop a losing environment and tank so that we can get the next Aaron Gordon. :banghead:


LOL losing environment? this team bottomed out ....or are you one of the fans that cried when Hennigan took the rebuild route instead of lateral trading for Bynum or Lopez...how did it work out for the teams that took that route? What the hell do you think rebuilding is? how long do you think it lasts? it is a 4-6 year turnaround - ALWAYS.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#106 » by TreasureCoast » Sat Feb 7, 2015 6:58 am

ezzzp wrote:
Destin wrote:Call me (Please Use More Appropriate Word) but I hope we somehow turn things around in the 2nd half of the season. I guess I am an idiot for wanting the team that I love to win a few games. I guess I am an idiot for not wanting to watch my team tank.

I have watched every single game this season and I treat every single game like a Saturday football game... I just want to see our kids win. I don't care about the stupid lottery.

ezzzp would rather us suck, lose games, develop a losing environment and tank so that we can get the next Aaron Gordon. :banghead:


LOL losing environment? this team bottomed out ....or are you one of the fans that cried when Hennigan took the rebuild route instead of lateral trading for Bynum or Lopez...how did it work out for the teams that took that route? What the hell do you think rebuilding is? how long do you think it lasts? it is a 4-6 year turnaround - ALWAYS.

I agree with the 4-6 year turn around but, year 3 and 4 progress needs to be made, you don't go from the bottom of the lottery to "hooray the rebuild is done!" and expect your team who has been coached to lose to know how to handle themselves in the playoffs.

And don't mention the Thunder that went from twenty something wins to 50, that was an anomaly, if you are pinning your hopes on that than I guess you're the guy in front of me in line at the 7-11 wasting my time buying $30 in lottery tickets like its crack.
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Re: The Push For George Karl 

Post#107 » by drsd » Sat Feb 7, 2015 7:19 am

Destin wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people on here think it is Ring or Bust.


It is Ring or Bust.

One team succeeds and 29 fail. That is the point.

..
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#108 » by ezzzp » Sat Feb 7, 2015 7:22 am

Beast_Reality wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Destin wrote:Call me (Please Use More Appropriate Word) but I hope we somehow turn things around in the 2nd half of the season. I guess I am an idiot for wanting the team that I love to win a few games. I guess I am an idiot for not wanting to watch my team tank.

I have watched every single game this season and I treat every single game like a Saturday football game... I just want to see our kids win. I don't care about the stupid lottery.

ezzzp would rather us suck, lose games, develop a losing environment and tank so that we can get the next Aaron Gordon. :banghead:


LOL losing environment? this team bottomed out ....or are you one of the fans that cried when Hennigan took the rebuild route instead of lateral trading for Bynum or Lopez...how did it work out for the teams that took that route? What the hell do you think rebuilding is? how long do you think it lasts? it is a 4-6 year turnaround - ALWAYS.

I agree with the 4-6 year turn around but, year 3 and 4 progress needs to be made, you don't go from the bottom of the lottery to "hooray the rebuild is done!" and expect your team who has been coached to lose to know how to handle themselves in the playoffs.

And don't mention the Thunder that went from twenty something wins to 50, that was an anomaly, if you are pinning your hopes on that than I guess you're the guy in front of me in line at the 7-11 wasting my time buying $30 in lottery tickets like its crack.


I totally agree that we needed to make progress in year 3, I thought we would be much further along, but we didn't. So the best option to make sure season 4 does show a solid improvement is by adding a top 5 pick to the roster.

Free agency this summer does not have any feasible all-star targets for us. We can dream all we want that Kawhi leaves SA for a rebuild but you know as well as me that he wont. The draft is the quickest and most feasible way to improve our roster. The higher the pick the better the chance at the better player.
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Re: 25 - TWENTY FIVE Years of Coaching Experience 

Post#109 » by ezzzp » Sat Feb 7, 2015 7:41 am

Destin wrote:I think this team sucks. I like Vuc and Tobias, but the rest are a bunch of garbage. Yes, I did say Oladipo is garbage. He plays stupid ass basketball. Sorry to hurt the Henny fanboys on here but this team sucks. I am simply asking for a coach with HUGE EXPERIENCE to teach our kids how to play the game of basketball and win a few more games and at least compete... I get some NBA 2K wannabe GM talking about getting a ring. Face it folks.. Orlando will NEVER get a ring. EVER. It's not in our front office's DNA to try to get one.

So help me god if we get Scotty Fng Skiles or some rookie ass coach as our next coach.. I am going ****. We desperately need EXPERIENCE in this organization... Not overpaid/has been Veterans, but someone who has been there before.

Yes, GK doesn't have a ring... but neither does the Orlando Magic.

For some reason it is Ring or Bust for the people on this board. We are not Alabama or the NE Patriots. We are the Orlando Magic.

GK could teach EVERYONE (including Henny and our idiot CEO a few things about running an NBA team in a dinky little town.)

We struggled against one of the worst teams in the NBA WITHOUT their SUPERSTAR tonight and you guys are 2nd guessing a coach like GK?

Jesus Christ.


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Re: Re: 

Post#110 » by pogiro » Sat Feb 7, 2015 7:58 am

rcklsscognition wrote:
Driguez wrote:Process this and that, part of the process is getting better, winning. What's definitely not part of that process is "tanking" as many of you are OK with it, I can't understand the thought process of wanting to lose to be part of a lottery which not only won't guarantee a number one pick, but it won't also guarantee that whoever you pick will pan out. I'm done with losing and I definitely do not have a loser mentality, which is what some of the posters on this board are being accustomed to.


What is your plan from tomorrow through to the start of next season for this team?


You're not going to get an answer. At least not an answer other than "improve." As in this team will apparently learn how to win without some sort of influx of talent or someone to direct the talent we have and maximize their potential.

It's pretty simple though. Hennigan has said it himself, we need to address PF. Get a PF that can protect the rim and defend the paint, get a coach that can get these players to learn how to compete together.

Apparently losing like we have been losing all year is going to doom us for the rest of this roster's run. And now is the only time we can bring in a coach that can make a difference.
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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#111 » by MagicFan32 » Sat Feb 7, 2015 9:28 am

the magic need to make this happen, if they drag their feet, or opt for some mediocre guy like skiles then this organization really is clueless. karl is what this team needs what now.
aol4532 on bill russell
I think if you put McGee back then, he would get those blocks just as easily as Russell did. Russell's athleticism was well ahead of the players of his time, and that's about it.
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The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#112 » by Jkam31 » Sat Feb 7, 2015 10:04 am

@carmichaeldave has the kings hiring a coach in the near future and he is saying it probably would be Karl. He even changed his avi to a picture if Karl. Unfortunately for you guys I think he would pick Cousins/Gay over you're young talent.

Ps. Hire Malone you won't regret it


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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#113 » by drsd » Sat Feb 7, 2015 11:11 am

Jkam31 wrote:@carmichaeldave has the kings hiring a coach in the near future and he is saying it probably would be Karl. He even changed his avi to a picture if Karl. Unfortunately for you guys I think he would pick Cousins/Gay over you're young talent.

Ps. Hire Malone you won't regret it


"... I think he would pick Cousins/Gay over you're (you are) young talent."
I think most Magic fans agree that we are indeed young talent. :)

This team is a PF and a bench away from a 41 win team. And from there, it is all about growth and personal improvements.
..

As for Malone, I think many Magic fans would accept him as the next coach.


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Re: The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#114 » by MellowRose » Sat Feb 7, 2015 11:26 am

Jkam31 wrote:@carmichaeldave has the kings hiring a coach in the near future and he is saying it probably would be Karl. He even changed his avi to a picture if Karl. Unfortunately for you guys I think he would pick Cousins/Gay over you're young talent.

Ps. Hire Malone you won't regret it


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Karl's tweets on Magic:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/CoachKarl22/status/563488711279538177[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/CoachKarl22/status/563534531114725376[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FadeMartins/status/563705122300391424[/tweet]

Karl's Tweets on Kings: Silence
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Re: Re: Re: 

Post#115 » by Driguez » Sat Feb 7, 2015 1:33 pm

pogiro wrote:
rcklsscognition wrote:
Driguez wrote:Process this and that, part of the process is getting better, winning. What's definitely not part of that process is "tanking" as many of you are OK with it, I can't understand the thought process of wanting to lose to be part of a lottery which not only won't guarantee a number one pick, but it won't also guarantee that whoever you pick will pan out. I'm done with losing and I definitely do not have a loser mentality, which is what some of the posters on this board are being accustomed to.


What is your plan from tomorrow through to the start of next season for this team?


You're not going to get an answer. At least not an answer other than "improve." As in this team will apparently learn how to win without some sort of influx of talent or someone to direct the talent we have and maximize their potential.

It's pretty simple though. Hennigan has said it himself, we need to address PF. Get a PF that can protect the rim and defend the paint, get a coach that can get these players to learn how to compete together.

Apparently losing like we have been losing all year is going to doom us for the rest of this roster's run. And now is the only time we can bring in a coach that can make a difference.



So, do you contradict yourself often? :crazy:

Btw my plan is to get a coach (yes those are important) that can make the talent we have (yes we do have considerable talent) to mesh together and to play to win. If you don't play to win then wtf are you playing for? Yes everyone's goal should be a ring, but do you lose year in and year out to get lottery picks or do you eventually turn it around? There's other ways to get players besides the draft you know...
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Post#116 » by rcklsscognition » Sat Feb 7, 2015 1:53 pm

That plan is equivalent to Obama's new plan to deal with ISIS. Basically pray it will get better.
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The Push For George Karl [Merged] 

Post#117 » by ButchMcRae » Sat Feb 7, 2015 2:19 pm

I think we have a stand out core. The NBA Draft shouldn't be our focus. At this point out missing pieces should come from a trade or free agency. Depending who we hire will determine our success or our failure. No pressure rob


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Post#118 » by rcklsscognition » Sat Feb 7, 2015 2:32 pm

You hire Karl during the break and he installs his system and puts us on progression to success I'm fine with winning now. But this interim coach and trying to win is a joke. Rah-rah wins do nothing for anyone except fans in the stands attending games.
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Re: 25 - TWENTY FIVE Years of Coaching Experience 

Post#119 » by LBPTarHeel27 » Sat Feb 7, 2015 2:42 pm

ezzzp wrote:
LBPTarHeel27 wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Except most of those guys were gone when he coached that team to their best record in franchise history. The year before, also without most of those guys, they had a near 50-win projected record (lockout season) as well. :wink:


I also love the line "all entering or in the peak of their prime".

Iverson: Prime was finished.
Martin: Prime was finished.
Camby: End of Prime.
Miller: End of Prime.
Nene: Hadn't entered Prime.


Iverson: Prime was finished. averaged 24.8ppg/18.4 PER, 26ppg/20.9PER, 18.7ppg/15.9PER in those years
Martin: Prime was finished. was 26-30yrs old while there, that is the definition of prime years
Camby: End of Prime. had PER of 19.9, 19.1, 17.2 , 18.7 in those years
Miller: End of Prime. during that time averaged 13to14ppg/7to8apg/16-18PER range
Nene: Hadn't entered Prime. was 23 to 29 years old during his years in Denver under Karl

2012-13 57-25 (A Iguodala 28, K Faried 23, T Lawson 25, D Galinari 24, A Miller 36, Mozgov 26)
2011-12 38-28 (Faried 22, Aflalo 26, Nene 29, Billups 34, Smith 26, Gallinari 23, Mozgov 25, Lawson 24, Harringtn 32)
2010-11 50-32 (Aflalo 25, Nene 28, Billups 33, JR Smith 25, Gallinari 22, Mozgov 24, Ty Lawson 23, Harrington)
2009-10 53-29 (Aflalo 24, Melo 25, KMart 30, Nene 27, Billups 32, JR Smith 24, Ty Lawson 22, Anderson)
2008-09 54-28 (Iverson 31, Melo 24, KMart 29 , Nene 26, Billups 31, JR Smith 23, Anderson)
2007-08 50-32 (Iverson 30, Melo 23, KMart 28, Nene 25, Camby 31, JR Smith 22)
2006-07 45-37 (Iverson 29, Melo 22, KMart 27, Nene 24, A Miller 30, Camby 30, JR Smith 21)
2005-06 44-38 (Melo 21, Kmart 26 , Nene 23, A Miller 29, Camby 29)


While I appreciate you going through the effort to prove me wrong...I wrongly assumed you were referring to the years that all of those guys actually played together under Karl, not referring to Karl's entire tenure. In addition...I think the eye test on a few of those guys pretty clearly debunks the idea that they were in their prime. I'll give you Camby and Miller back but...

No numbers in the world can convince me that the Iverson that played for the Nuggets was the same Iverson that took Sixers to the Finals by himself. It's just not true.

You cannot honestly believe that just because Kenyon Martin was in a range of years that can sometimes be related to a players prime...that he was actually having his best years. Due to the fact that you decided to not use numbers in his defense, I'm guessing you already know this. On that same token, If 26-30 is prime...then by your definition, a lot of Nene's years were not in his prime. Also, from 23-26...Nene missed essentially 2 entire seasons and had another one that would be considered a down season. Nice prime.

Your initial point isn't wrong. We do not have the talent that those earlier Karl Denver teams had. I'm just not a fan of the reasoning. I think you can make a better case for his coach of the year season being a better indicator of what he might be able to do with our team. A lot of young guys that need direction (ala Faried, Lawson, Gallo, etc.). They had a 38 win season that was followed by a 57 win season. Then he leaves...and the fall right back in to the lottery. I don't know that he is going to be the guy that leads us to a title...but I also don't think that any coach we hire right now will. If we get there, it will be coach #3 that does it (most likely).

Regardless of who we end up with...I just love the fact that we are on track to get a real veteran coach. It WILL be an upgrade over Vaughn and it is going to be fun to watch. We are still a few years out from title contention but I think this team will be much more enjoyable to watch now.
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Re: 25 - TWENTY FIVE Years of Coaching Experience 

Post#120 » by tiderulz » Sat Feb 7, 2015 2:43 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Iverson: Prime was finished. averaged 24.8ppg/18.4 PER, 26ppg/20.9PER, 18.7ppg/15.9PER in those years
Martin: Prime was finished. was 26-30yrs old while there, that is the definition of prime years
Camby: End of Prime. had PER of 19.9, 19.1, 17.2 , 18.7 in those years
Miller: End of Prime. during that time averaged 13to14ppg/7to8apg/16-18PER range
Nene: Hadn't entered Prime. was 23 to 29 years old during his years in Denver under Karl


Camby, Miller and Nene were not stars at the time Karl coached them. Debatable they were ever stars to begin with

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