Is Goran's regression due to 3 PG system or was last year a fluke?

[Barkley6]

Goodwin has played extremely well when given minutes. I've posted those stats countless amount of times.

Warren is the reigning ACC Player of the Year. A amazing scorer. No I dont think Green and Marcus are both better than him.

Ennis is the closest thing we have on this roster to a "true PG".

Guys like Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, Jeff Teague etc all got minutes for their team as rookies and sophomores and that's a big part of why they were able to develop.

I wanted Hornacek to start Len over Plumlee since the second half of last season. He finally did it almost a year after and its paid off. I think giving these other guys minutes will pay off in a similar way for both the short term if not the long term.

Goodwin is too one dimensional right now. He still doesn't have a 3pt shot and he is in no way better than Dragic, Bledose, IT or Green RIGHT NOW.

The ACC is not the NBA. Enough said. You can't say "Oh he was a boss in college" and therefore he is better than proven NBA players.

Klay and Steph both were playing for a GSW team that was not in playoff contention. Teague got spot minutes his first two seasons, and playing in the weak eastern conference probably helped with that. Kawhi Leonard is possibly a lone exception. I'm not opposed to playing the young guys, but I want them to EARN it, not just get court time because they are young.

As far as Len goes, we ALL knew he was going to be the eventual starter, but the Suns wanted to bring him along slowly because of his age and injury history, I don't begrudge them that.

It's not like in the D'Antoni years, where we were playing 7-8 guys a night and the last few on our bench were total scrubs (Sean Marks, Piatkowski, Pat Burke, etc.). We are playing a 10 man rotation, and all 10 are legit NBA talents. It's hard for a rookie to break into that type of team.

And that's precisely my point. Do you think any Warriors fan now cares that they sucked back then? Do you think any Thunder fan cares that they sucked during Westbrook and Durant's first 2 years there?

No they don't because those youngster getting playing time and developing was more important than being the 8th, 9th or 10th seed in the West.

Kawhi Leonard, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green, Pero Antic etc are all examples of players who got playing time for good teams as well.

The difference was on that GSW roster, there werent players who were consistently better than Klay and Steph. They banked on those guys becoming their future because they didn't have other players, that's why they were picking 7th,6th,11th and 7th from 2007-2012. We aren't going to bottom out the same way because we are too talented.

[kennydorglas]

Fans are stuck of being in the middle, that's where the Suns are.

Not one Suns fan would complain if we sucked bad but was giving Len, Goodwin, Ennis, Warren and Bullock all minutes. Not one.

The fact that the SUNS themselves think that their so good that their rookies and sophomores can't play minutes for them is arrogant. If your gonna be that arrogant, then you better be damn good and the Suns arent.

It's not arrogant. The rookies need to BEAT someone out for playing time. If any one of the rookies was playing better in practice or was showing immense ability, you think Hornacek would keep them on the bench? At this point none of our rookies are better than our rotation players, and with the exception of PJ Tucker, Gerald Green and Goran all our guys are 27 or younger. It's not like we are playing 34 year old guys, Like, oh, I dunno LUIS SCOLA, instead of a young player.

Also, a key factor in being a winning and competitive team is that it's going to help us keep our free agents and attract new ones. Yeah, money talks in the NBA, but do you think we'd have any chance of resigning Goran (or signing Bledsoe last offseason) if we were playing the rookies 25 minutes a night and were winning 25 games a season? Orlando is a perfect example of this, look how much they had to overpay to get Channing Frye. But they are playing the rookies and losing a ton of games. That's what you want? People are enamored by this idea of developing rookies because they are scarred by the D'Antoni years. It's really foolish to me, if you want the rookies/sophomores to play, then tell them to PLAY BETTER and unseat the guy in front of them. Just like Len did with Plumlee.

Goodwin has played extremely well when given minutes. I've posted those stats countless amount of times.

Warren is the reigning ACC Player of the Year. A amazing scorer. No I dont think Green and Marcus are both better than him.

Ennis is the closest thing we have on this roster to a "true PG".

Guys like Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, Jeff Teague etc all got minutes for their team as rookies and sophomores and that's a big part of why they were able to develop.

I wanted Hornacek to start Len over Plumlee since the second half of last season. He finally did it almost a year after and its paid off. I think giving these other guys minutes will pay off in a similar way for both the short term if not the long term.

Wiggins already said that going to Minny has already helped A LOT in his development (playing huge minutes/confidence/learning by mistakes).
We NEED to find space for our youngsters or ship them all for a star.

[Barkley6]

It's not arrogant. The rookies need to BEAT someone out for playing time. If any one of the rookies was playing better in practice or was showing immense ability, you think Hornacek would keep them on the bench? At this point none of our rookies are better than our rotation players, and with the exception of PJ Tucker, Gerald Green and Goran all our guys are 27 or younger. It's not like we are playing 34 year old guys, Like, oh, I dunno LUIS SCOLA, instead of a young player.

Also, a key factor in being a winning and competitive team is that it's going to help us keep our free agents and attract new ones. Yeah, money talks in the NBA, but do you think we'd have any chance of resigning Goran (or signing Bledsoe last offseason) if we were playing the rookies 25 minutes a night and were winning 25 games a season? Orlando is a perfect example of this, look how much they had to overpay to get Channing Frye. But they are playing the rookies and losing a ton of games. That's what you want? People are enamored by this idea of developing rookies because they are scarred by the D'Antoni years. It's really foolish to me, if you want the rookies/sophomores to play, then tell them to PLAY BETTER and unseat the guy in front of them. Just like Len did with Plumlee.

Goodwin has played extremely well when given minutes. I've posted those stats countless amount of times.

Warren is the reigning ACC Player of the Year. A amazing scorer. No I dont think Green and Marcus are both better than him.

Ennis is the closest thing we have on this roster to a "true PG".

Guys like Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, Jeff Teague etc all got minutes for their team as rookies and sophomores and that's a big part of why they were able to develop.

I wanted Hornacek to start Len over Plumlee since the second half of last season. He finally did it almost a year after and its paid off. I think giving these other guys minutes will pay off in a similar way for both the short term if not the long term.

Wiggins already said that going to Minny has already helped A LOT in his development (playing huge minutes/confidence/learning by mistakes).
We NEED to find space for our youngsters or ship them all for a star.

I'm not saying that playing our youngsters wont help them. I'm saying that we aren't the same as a Minnesota or a GSW team from a few years back. We're not destined for a top-10 pick. We're competing for the playoffs, so you manage the minutes differently in that scenario. If you know you're only going to win 25 games, sure play the kids. But if you're currently on pace to win 45-46 games, as the Suns are, you have to take a different approach.

[lilfishi22]

Before people say "We only signed IT because we didn't know if Bledsoe was coming back", well then why not trade IT after we signed Bledsoe? Why not trade IT in Nov, Dec or hell even January? He supposedly has amazing trade value right since he's a big "asset"?

So why not have traded him and just kept the same Dragic-Bledsoe combo from last year with maybe Ennis getting the spare Ish minutes?

Because it isn't NBA2K. The NBA doesn't work like that and while trade value stays virtually the same in NBA2K once you sign a player even if they sit through half a season. IRL once you sign a guy, the moment there's any hint a guy is on the block so soon, you're going to get lowballed on offers. We can't trade IT because we won't get value for him.

Signing him was a mistake after resigning Bledsoe but trading him right away would be a mistake all the same.

As for your main question, it's likely a multitude of factors, one of which involves IT.

1. IT
Let's start with him then. Thomas is a baller but he's just a bad fit. If we compare his stats last season and this season, it's virtually identical. He's shooting a slightly lower fg% overall but is shooting close to 40% from the 3. Per36 he's also averaging just over 21ppg just like last season and is getting to the line more often too. What that tells me is that he can do his thing, regardless of the system he's in. But he's putting up his numbers at the expense of production/efficiency from Goran, Bledsoe and GGreen.

IT's ability to handle the ball means that half the time Goran's role is relegated to being a spot up 3PT shooter. Considering IT isn't exactly a great passing PG and Goran's abilities being limited without the ball in his hands, leads to a dysfunctional back court pairing. The times when they have worked well is usually when guys are making their shots and we're playing good defense leading to flowing offense. But in the half court set, it's a pretty ugly sight

2. Spacing
This has been discussed to death but I still believe this is the biggest reason for Goran's regression. Comparing his All-NBA season to this season, the two stats that jumps out at me is his free throw attempts and assists per game. Per36, most of his stats are pretty close except for his FTA's and APG. From watching him play, you could tell he doesn't have nearly the same space to operate as he once had. Last season he would routinely get a Frye pick and do his magic on the big man who comes out to front him. When the defender gets sloppy, he'd drive straight to the hole for the bucket or the foul. He would also have his Frye outlet, which was always available to him either.

Now we would see him get a pick from one of our big men, who 9 times out of 10 would dive to the basket which means half a lane is taken up by his roll-man with no outlets. We would see him try to work his arsenal of stepbacks on the big man defenders but he would often have ot pick up his dribble because he's so far out sometimes, he'd be getting help defenders from the perimeter.

We tried to replace our break and butter play with Tolliver but that never worked out. We just haven't found many plays to help Goran get easy shots.

3. Fluke year?
It may have been a matter of perfect fit and perfect chemistry.

[Revived]

Before people say "We only signed IT because we didn't know if Bledsoe was coming back", well then why not trade IT after we signed Bledsoe? Why not trade IT in Nov, Dec or hell even January? He supposedly has amazing trade value right since he's a big "asset"?

So why not have traded him and just kept the same Dragic-Bledsoe combo from last year with maybe Ennis getting the spare Ish minutes?

Because it isn't NBA2K. The NBA doesn't work like that and while trade value stays virtually the same in NBA2K once you sign a player even if they sit through half a season. IRL once you sign a guy, the moment there's any hint a guy is on the block so soon, you're going to get lowballed on offers. We can't trade IT because we won't get value for him.

Signing him was a mistake after resigning Bledsoe but trading him right away would be a mistake all the same.

As for your main question, it's likely a multitude of factors, one of which involves IT.

1. IT
Let's start with him then. Thomas is a baller but he's just a bad fit. If we compare his stats last season and this season, it's virtually identical. He's shooting a slightly lower fg% overall but is shooting close to 40% from the 3. Per36 he's also averaging just over 21ppg just like last season and is getting to the line more often too. What that tells me is that he can do his thing, regardless of the system he's in. But he's putting up his numbers at the expense of production/efficiency from Goran, Bledsoe and GGreen.

IT's ability to handle the ball means that half the time Goran's role is relegated to being a spot up 3PT shooter. Considering IT isn't exactly a great passing PG and Goran's abilities being limited without the ball in his hands, leads to a dysfunctional back court pairing. The times when they have worked well is usually when guys are making their shots and we're playing good defense leading to flowing offense. But in the half court set, it's a pretty ugly sight

2. Spacing
This has been discussed to death but I still believe this is the biggest reason for Goran's regression. Comparing his All-NBA season to this season, the two stats that jumps out at me is his free throw attempts and assists per game. Per36, most of his stats are pretty close except for his FTA's and APG. From watching him play, you could tell he doesn't have nearly the same space to operate as he once had. Last season he would routinely get a Frye pick and do his magic on the big man who comes out to front him. When the defender gets sloppy, he'd drive straight to the hole for the bucket or the foul. He would also have his Frye outlet, which was always available to him either.

Now we would see him get a pick from one of our big men, who 9 times out of 10 would dive to the basket which means half a lane is taken up by his roll-man with no outlets. We would see him try to work his arsenal of stepbacks on the big man defenders but he would often have ot pick up his dribble because he's so far out sometimes, he'd be getting help defenders from the perimeter.

We tried to replace our break and butter play with Tolliver but that never worked out. We just haven't found many plays to help Goran get easy shots.

3. Fluke year?
It may have been a matter of perfect fit and perfect chemistry.

I don't think IT has ever had negative trade value. With the cap rising, his contract should be seen as neutral or positive.

Agreed with the rest.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think IT has ever had negative trade value. With the cap rising, his contract should be seen as neutral or positive.

Agreed with the rest.

not saying he had negative value just saying we won't get full value for him if teams knew we were trying to get rid of him so soon.

[Bogyo]

I don't think IT has ever had negative trade value. With the cap rising, his contract should be seen as neutral or positive.

Agreed with the rest.

not saying he had negative value just saying we won't get full value for him if teams knew we were trying to get rid of him so soon.

I don't think that this is the full case. More likely other teams seeing what you mentioned in your second point. IT gets his own on the expense of his teammates, and it happened with Boogie (and whoever else was accusing him of being a fake-goodguy infront of cameras, etc...). Now on one bad team, that might fly, but when you are on your second team - that raises a red flag in many GMs head.
Or do you guys think that it's just a coincidence that we haven't heard any rumours about getting a call about IT -not even a lowball offer!!! - when it's crystal clear that we want to move some of our guards (pg's especially).

[nevetsov]

Fellas, you're missing the big picture here. Last year's dual-PG experiment and this year's three headed PG hydra are only stepping stones...

2015-16... Year of the Quad-PG offense

And 2016-17... We unleash the 5 pointed PG OFFENSE! Can you say championship?

We may as well go ahead and book the street parade already.
/greenfont

[RunDogGun]

Fellas, you're missing the big picture here. Last year's dual-PG experiment and this year's three headed PG hydra are only stepping stones...

2015-16... Year of the Quad-PG offense

And 2016-17... We unleash the 5 pointed PG OFFENSE! Can you say championship?

We may as well go ahead and book the street parade already.
/greenfont

Well, it's not a bad plan, if instead of guys in pg size bodies, we had pgs in positional size bodies. Unselfish players that play for each other is the way to go.

[Damkac]

Phoenix Suns in 2016
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSuqrGSWAk[/youtube]

[kennydorglas]

Phoenix Suns in 2016
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSuqrGSWAk[/youtube]

Smoove is a freakin' monster
OH MY

[Cutter]

Fellas, you're missing the big picture here. Last year's dual-PG experiment and this year's three headed PG hydra are only stepping stones...

2015-16... Year of the Quad-PG offense

And 2016-17... We unleash the 5 pointed PG OFFENSE! Can you say championship?

We may as well go ahead and book the street parade already.
/greenfont

Well, it's not a bad plan, if instead of guys in pg size bodies, we had pgs in positional size bodies. Unselfish players that play for each other is the way to go.

Magic Johnson was a 6'8" PG for the Lakers. In a 5 pg system he could probably play PF or C as our "tall" PG.

[rsavaj]

I don't think last year was a fluke.

2011/2012, 28 games as a starter: 18 ppg, 8.4 apg, 3.5 rpg on 49/38/84 splits
2012/2013, 32 games after the All Star Break: 16.3 ppg, 7.3 apg, 3.3 rpg on 47/37/85 splits
Heck, this December: 14 games, 20 ppg, 5.1 apg, 3.6 rpg on 54/41/80 spits

Even if you take out last year's "fluke year", you're left with 74 games where the dude looks like one of the best guards in the league. Nearly a full season's worth.

His new role has clearly affected his play.

[nevetsov]

Magic Johnson was a 6'8" PG for the Lakers. In a 5 pg system he could probably play PF or C as our "tall" PG.

I remember when Magic came back from retirement, he played a lot of PF and I think may have even replaced Elden Campbell in the starting lineup. I seem to recall him playing with Van Exel (PG), Eddie Jones (SG), Ced Ceballos (SF) and Divac (C).

So I guess you could put a "big" All-PG lineup together if you had a time machine...

C 6'8 Boris Diaw
PF 6'8 Magic Johnson
SF 6'7 Shaun Livingston
SG 6'7 Penny Hardaway
PG anyone