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Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!!

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Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1281 » by Jdiddy701 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:29 pm

I would respect Dragic so much more if he would just admit he's struggling without any excuses. No need to say you're not getting your touches in your spots. I just see no effort coming from you. NBA players are something else.


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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1282 » by Saberestar » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:09 pm

Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough has to make the adjustment.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1283 » by BobbieL » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:41 pm

Saberestar wrote:Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough have to make the adjustment.


Exactly.

Thomas is what he is - a spark plug off the bench but has weaknesses. Defense, or lack thereof. I think he stops the ball

If the Suns get rid of the Morri, Green and Thomas - I think they become a better TEAM.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1284 » by Sunsdeuce » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:42 pm

Bledsoe and IT have created this me first attitude. You want to know why there is no actual plays ran look no further than IT and bledsoe. They only create shots for themselves and the rest of the team has emilated them. This team will not improve until they are gone. Bledsoe has not changed from his days with the clippers. When Chris Paul got hurt the clippers offense took a noticeable nose dive because of bledsoe's shoot first, second, third, forth, and maybe fifth pass ball. 70 wasted million dollars on bledsoe who has no real position. He can't play the point because he has no PG instincts and he can't play the SG because his shooting is atrocious. IT is self explanatory.

You want to fix the Suns offense.....TRADE bledsoe and IT. This team WILL never get better those too on the team. (Unless a star comes and forces the ball out of their hands or they are benched).

Everyone loves to call Kevin Love a stat stuffer. Well bledsoe and IT are the very definition of stat stuffer!!
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1285 » by SSOL » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:53 pm

SF88 wrote:
rsavaj wrote:The "worst defensive team in Suns history" according to SF88 is actually a slightly below average defensive team. We rank 17th in defensive rating.

Sorry man, you can't just make stuff up to fit your "Hornacek is literally Hitler" narrative, especially when we can fact-check it.

If you want more detailed stats, we're 19th in guarding the 3, and 14th in overall defensive FG%.

I hate, hate, hate that people find stats just to support their argument. One of the primary reasons why I hate most of Los Soles arguments and any advanced stat arguments.

Its so much simpler to analyze if you actually watch the game rather than rely on stats completely. One of the main reasons why I don't like Daryl Morey even though everyone else is on his jock.

Regardless, lets talk stats. I find it convenient that you leave out that Suns are bottom 10 in pts allowed, and pts allowed in the paint.

But of course, defensive rating supports your argument, so lets just use that right?

I could probably find a stat right now that shows me that Steve Nash is the best defensive PG of all time. Will you believe it?

Assuming you've watched the Suns a lot of this season, toss out all the stats. Do you actually think we're a good defensive team?


I hate, hate, hate when people disregard statistics in order to rely on what their eyes tell them. You do realize that stats are derived from the games you are watching, right?
You bring up points allowed, but you did not bring up pace. The Suns are second in pace, meaning possessions per game. Because of the pace, both teams will score more due to the added possessions. That's why defensive rating is important, it negates the issue of pace.
You do have an argument on point in the paint but please don't tell me that your eyes see something the stats don't. It's the other way around (stats see what you don't).
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1286 » by Sunsdeuce » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:04 pm

Stats are a tool. Every good scout will tell you that stats/advanced stats are a tool to help in player evaluation but should never be the sole reason in player evaluation. They are an aide nothing more. A whole picture has to be used for real assessment (game tape, live games, stats).

There is a reason scouts, GMs, coaches go to games of players they want through the draft or trade. They want to get a visual perspective of the player.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1287 » by batsmasher » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:12 pm

lol who needs advanced stats anyway. They suck. Even McD isn't a numbers guy. KEEP SHOOTING I SAY.

Anyway, slightly more on topic. The Suns' defense will always be masked by the fact we play at such high tempo. The eye test is never going to tell you the real story. Higher tempo play = less consistent defense but still equally effective defense overall.

And even more slightly on topic, I'm counting the days till our defensive juggernaught and passing aficionado GGreen is traded. PS: I still love you Gerald and it's going to be hard to say goodbye if it eventuates.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1288 » by MMyhre » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:35 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough have to make the adjustment.


Exactly.

Thomas is what he is - a spark plug off the bench but has weaknesses. Defense, or lack thereof. I think he stops the ball

If the Suns get rid of the Morri, Green and Thomas - I think they become a better TEAM.

Thomas is younger and has played better than Dragic this year, not like Dragic is much better on D. Bledsoe has also been better and Dragic seemingly cant perform at SG, I would move Dragic.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1289 » by rsavaj » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:39 pm

SF88 wrote:
rsavaj wrote:The "worst defensive team in Suns history" according to SF88 is actually a slightly below average defensive team. We rank 17th in defensive rating.

Sorry man, you can't just make stuff up to fit your "Hornacek is literally Hitler" narrative, especially when we can fact-check it.

If you want more detailed stats, we're 19th in guarding the 3, and 14th in overall defensive FG%.

I hate, hate, hate that people find stats just to support their argument. One of the primary reasons why I hate most of Los Soles arguments and any advanced stat arguments.

Its so much simpler to analyze if you actually watch the game rather than rely on stats completely. One of the main reasons why I don't like Daryl Morey even though everyone else is on his jock.

Regardless, lets talk stats. I find it convenient that you leave out that Suns are bottom 10 in pts allowed, and pts allowed in the paint.

But of course, defensive rating supports your argument, so lets just use that right?

I could probably find a stat right now that shows me that Steve Nash is the best defensive PG of all time. Will you believe it?

Assuming you've watched the Suns a lot of this season, toss out all the stats. Do you actually think we're a good defensive team?


If you're using points allowed, you're either living in 1995 or trying to find a stat that fits YOUR narrative. You know full well that points allowed doesn't adjust for pace, so why are you pointing to that as the be all end all? You can't make up some hilarious BS about this being A) a HORRIBLE defensive team and B) the "worst defensive team in franchise history" and then not expect to get called out on that nonsense.

I never said we were a good defensive team. We're below average using the eye test, and we're below average using defensive rating AND defensive FG%. Funny how that works, eh?

One of us is sticking to the facts, and it's not you. You're clearly biased trying to tear down Horny, and now you're straight up inventing things to do it.

The funny thing is that you probably think I think this team is perfect and has no flaws, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I only seem like a delusional optimist in your eyes because you're skewed so far the other way that anybody sitting in the middle seems extreme to you.

Oh, and you can't find a stat that says Nash was the best PG of all time, because stats actual reflect reality, unlike whatever you're trying to do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1290 » by Sunsdeuce » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:47 pm

Saberestar wrote:Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough has to make the adjustment.

Your a 100% correct. What hornacek is doing with Goran is criminal. I would take a Goran led team(without bledsoe and IT) over a bledsoe led team anyday. You don't take the ball out of a 29 years old hands (who has played PG his entire life) and expect good results.

The Suns are currently on a pace for a record worse than last year. Ironically Goran played his best basketball when bledsoe was out.

Bledsoe and IT have combined to destroy any resemblance of a pro offense. Their street ball mentality is destroying this team. But they will continue to chuck away and the Suns will continue to get beat by bad teams. The Suns are DEAD LAST in assist per game. Fingers get pointed at your PGs, bledsoe and IT. They control this atocious thing that Hornacek calls an offense. It's the chuckwagon.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1291 » by NavLDO » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:51 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote: We're not running out of time.

This is exactly the kind of message I feel some posters seem to be projecting.

"We have to make a move NOW"
"Why aren't we playing Archie 20mpg NOW?"
"Fire Hornacek NOW"
"We should be consistently winning NOW"

We've just signed the MoBros to a cheap long term deal, Bledsoe's deal is going to look cheap going forward and Thomas is signed for cheap as well. And if you don't like the guys I've just mentioned, I'm sure a lot of other teams would love to have them on the contract they're on. It isn't like we're wasting Carmelo's or Bosh's prime here by being patient.


Agree with this assessment. We do have some great contracts, and you mentioned the ONLY ones that really were great deals, as opposed to the below quote...

GetyourPhx wrote:The Morris brothers, Bledsoe, Tucker, and Thomas are not going anywhere this year. The Suns just signed all of them to really solid contracts that will look like absolute steals in a couple of years. Phoenix can offer Dragic more money, more years, than any other team. They shouldn't lose him in free agency.


Two issues I have with this is Tucker's contract and Dragic's as well. I mentioned it a few pages back, I believe, but Tucker's contract is not a good one. It's 'ok', but I would not characterize it anywhere near a steal. I'm sure one can show an example of a lesser player making more, but that doesn't prove that Tucker's contract is some sort of great deal. Tucker has regressed, along with a good number of other players, since last year. The only ones that have improved, IMO, are Kieff and Len. Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Plumlee, Mook--all have either stagnated (EB/Mook) or regressed--and it shows via our record. Mook is a better player than Tucker, overall, and is paid less, so his contract is fine.

So again, blasphemous as it may be, Dragic should be paid at a level commensurate with his production, and to me, that's $10-12M. We will have made a mistake if we pay him as much or more than EB. EB is younger, still learning, and hopefully, improving, and $14M was a slight overpay, but that's ok, IMO, because he's still young and improving. But Dragic? Sorry, but he's peaked, IMO. He may yet have a season or two better than this year, but I doubt he ever gets back to last year's level. If we pay him $15M per, we will have roughly $37M invested in 3 PGs--of which not a single All Star. That's just not a good thing. IT is on a steal of a contract, because he plays at about a $10-12M per level, as does Dragic. So pay Dragic what he deserves, but I really hope they do not pay more than $12M.

If we are to get better, IMO, we need to shed one of our PGs, and pick up a PF with that savings, and the most logical, even if not desired, would be Dragic. Take the emotion out of what you think of Dragic, then look at the impact/production, and then, I challenge anyone, with a straight face, explain how/why Dragic is worth more than $12M per.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1292 » by Sunsdeuce » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:52 pm

I challenge you to explain to me how bledsoe and his lousy shooting, large amount of turnovers per game, 5 assists per game (most PGs can accidently get 5 assist per game) is worth $70 million?!?!?!?!!??!?


There is a reason teams are lining up to get their hands on Goran (lakers, rockets, knicks) and NOT one team even offered bledsoe a contract!!!!!!!!
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1293 » by rsavaj » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:02 pm

Sunsdeuce wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough has to make the adjustment.

Your a 100% correct. What hornacek is doing with Goran is criminal. I would take a Goran led team(without bledsoe and IT) over a bledsoe led team anyday. You don't take the ball out of a 29 years old hands (who has played PG his entire life) and expect good results.

The Suns are currently on a pace for a record worse than last year. Ironically Goran played his best basketball when bledsoe was out.

Bledsoe and IT have combined to destroy any resemblance of a pro offense. Their street ball mentality is destroying this team. But they will continue to chuck away and the Suns will continue to get beat by bad teams. The Suns are DEAD LAST in assist per game. Fingers get pointed at your PGs, bledsoe and IT. They control this atocious thing that Hornacek calls an offense. It's the chuckwagon.


You're right about Goran playing his best ball when Bledsoe was out last season.

Here's the problem with your "Bledsoe is terrible and hurts the team" argument:

2013/2014 with Dragic AND Bledsoe: 23-11
2013/2014 with only Dragic: 20-19

We are at our best with both of them in the lineup.

That's why IT confounds me so much. He's a great player on a great contract, but something is amiss. Everyone says they hate the the "3 PG" system, but we're not even running the "2 PG" system anymore. Last year, Bledsoe and Goran took turns running the sets in that glorious 34 game stretch. Now, Goran is pretty much strictly a SG, slotted on the weak side waiting for the 3. It really doesn't make sense to me because that's a complete waste of his skillset. He's not a spot-up shooter, he's a slasher. When Horny plays the trips, Goran slides one over yet again, and now he's at SF.

Still, Thomas appears to be important to our success, given that we went 3-5 without him in the lineup in December.

So I really don't know what the heck is going on. I think we all envisioned this year as "last year's offense + Ish Smith's minutes become IT's minutes", but with Frye leaving and Bledsoe becoming the higher usage PG, we're not running last year's offense.

You want to know something crazy that doesn't make any sense? We're actually finishing a higher % of our possessions with assists this season than last season(15.8% this year, 14.8% last year). Seems impossible given all of the ISO stuff, but we're moving the ball better this year.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1294 » by bwgood77 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:02 pm

SF88 wrote:
rsavaj wrote:The "worst defensive team in Suns history" according to SF88 is actually a slightly below average defensive team. We rank 17th in defensive rating.

Sorry man, you can't just make stuff up to fit your "Hornacek is literally Hitler" narrative, especially when we can fact-check it.

If you want more detailed stats, we're 19th in guarding the 3, and 14th in overall defensive FG%.

I hate, hate, hate that people find stats just to support their argument. One of the primary reasons why I hate most of Los Soles arguments and any advanced stat arguments.

Its so much simpler to analyze if you actually watch the game rather than rely on stats completely. One of the main reasons why I don't like Daryl Morey even though everyone else is on his jock.

Regardless, lets talk stats. I find it convenient that you leave out that Suns are bottom 10 in pts allowed, and pts allowed in the paint.

But of course, defensive rating supports your argument, so lets just use that right?

I could probably find a stat right now that shows me that Steve Nash is the best defensive PG of all time. Will you believe it?

Assuming you've watched the Suns a lot of this season, toss out all the stats. Do you actually think we're a good defensive team?


You really don't understand how pace impacts this?
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1295 » by SunsFanSSOL » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:05 pm

Sunsdeuce wrote:Bledsoe and IT have combined to destroy any resemblance of a pro offense. Their street ball mentality is destroying this team. But they will continue to chuck away and the Suns will continue to get beat by bad teams. The Suns are DEAD LAST in assist per game. Fingers get pointed at your PGs, bledsoe and IT. They control this atocious thing that Hornacek calls an offense. It's the chuckwagon.

Lmao, Bledsoe averages the most assists on the team, is top 20 in the league in assists, and is averaging the same amount of assists so far this season with 3 PG on the roster, as Dragic averaged last season while having a chance to single handedly control the offense for 40 games. Wtf are you on about?
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1296 » by rsavaj » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:06 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
SF88 wrote:
rsavaj wrote:The "worst defensive team in Suns history" according to SF88 is actually a slightly below average defensive team. We rank 17th in defensive rating.

Sorry man, you can't just make stuff up to fit your "Hornacek is literally Hitler" narrative, especially when we can fact-check it.

If you want more detailed stats, we're 19th in guarding the 3, and 14th in overall defensive FG%.

I hate, hate, hate that people find stats just to support their argument. One of the primary reasons why I hate most of Los Soles arguments and any advanced stat arguments.

Its so much simpler to analyze if you actually watch the game rather than rely on stats completely. One of the main reasons why I don't like Daryl Morey even though everyone else is on his jock.

Regardless, lets talk stats. I find it convenient that you leave out that Suns are bottom 10 in pts allowed, and pts allowed in the paint.

But of course, defensive rating supports your argument, so lets just use that right?

I could probably find a stat right now that shows me that Steve Nash is the best defensive PG of all time. Will you believe it?

Assuming you've watched the Suns a lot of this season, toss out all the stats. Do you actually think we're a good defensive team?


You really don't understand how pace impacts this?


Of course he understands. Anybody watching basketball in the last decade understands. He just chooses to ignore it to make a ridiculous point.
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1297 » by Barkley_34 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:22 pm

SunsFanSSOL wrote:
Sunsdeuce wrote:Bledsoe and IT have combined to destroy any resemblance of a pro offense. Their street ball mentality is destroying this team. But they will continue to chuck away and the Suns will continue to get beat by bad teams. The Suns are DEAD LAST in assist per game. Fingers get pointed at your PGs, bledsoe and IT. They control this atocious thing that Hornacek calls an offense. It's the chuckwagon.

Lmao, Bledsoe averages the most assists on the team, is top 20 in the league in assists, and is averaging the same amount of assists so far this season with 3 PG on the roster, as Dragic averaged last season while having a chance to single handedly control the offense for 40 games. Wtf are you on about?

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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1298 » by pidi » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:27 pm

Saberestar wrote:Dragic needs the ball in his hands to be very effective. He played PG last year a ton of minutes because Bledsoe was injured and when Bledsoe was on the bench. Now he is ALWAYS an SG, and he can play decently there, but he is more confortable with the ball on his hands and making plays for him or for others.
We have to trade Isaiah, Dragis wants to play for the Suns and he is better than Thomas...he and Bledsoe, with Ennis or a veteran cheap PG, are good enough to cover that position.
We have prove that this structure is not working, McDonough has to make the adjustment.


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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1299 » by Bogyo » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:28 pm

To all the people who think that IT (and Bledsoe) are as good as Dragic at point guard:
I almost hope you get your wish next year with the ball pounding midget and the dumb-turover machine as our starting backcourt.
Let's just see how your darlings preform at the 2 guard, while the other leads one piss-poor posession after the other, and Dragic starts for another NBA team who is competent enough not to force him to play shooting guard (or small forward in some cases).
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Re: Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!! 

Post#1300 » by Kerrsed » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:53 pm

Bogyo wrote:To all the people who think that IT (and Bledsoe) are as good as Dragic at point guard:
I almost hope you get your wish next year with the ball pounding midget and the dumb-turover machine as our starting backcourt.


I always laugh when i see people call Bledsoe a "Turnover Machine". Its comical. Let me quote myself from last time i defended Bledsoes SUPER HIGH RATE OF TURNOVERS:

Kerrsed wrote:
SF88 wrote:
Rather than thinking about ways to "x them out" how about not turning the ball over so much in the first place?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your Bledsoe beef just doesnt end does it? 3 turnovers is alot? Really? Take a look at the best Starting PG's in the league! Since i doubt you would take the time to do so, i did it for you!

Wall: 3.8
Curry: 3.2
CP3: 2
Rose: 3.2
Rondo: 3.3
Lawson: 3
Rubio: 3
Westbrook: 4
Lillard: 2.8
Parker: 2.7
Lowery: 2.7

So Bledsoe is smack dab in the middle of the best PG's in the league when it comes to turnovers.


Also Bledsoe>Dragic. That is all.
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