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DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore?

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DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#1 » by mj234eva » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:11 pm

The biggest problem is Gasol


Watch Pau Gasol on his defense on the pick and roll. First, he almost never even runs up to the pick, instead he just floats back about 5-6 feet behind the pick and roll spot. This has a few huge problems.

First, the big man is always wide open for the jumper, in the previous example as the Bulls big man is recovering, the opposing big man will typically take a jumper with a guy running out at him, in this instance, Pau frequently can't really even do a successful close out.

A mid range jumper with a tight close out isn't a good shot. A wide open mid range jumper is.

Second, Gasol doesn't slow down the opposing guard off the pick at all, so now the Bulls guard who's defending is a step behind after fighting over the pick while the opposing guard is running full tilt at the basket. This gives the appearance that our guards simply can't defend anyone, and beyond that Gasol isn't nearly a good enough defender to stop a guard running full tilt at him, so he does nothing meaningful from this position either.


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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#2 » by Rerisen » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:12 pm

NB4 "It's all Derrick Rose"
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#3 » by Mech Engineer » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:34 pm

Rerisen wrote:NB4 "It's all Derrick Rose"


Going back to this. ....I don't care about stats until now but if there is one thing which probably will not change or the least possible to change is Gasol's pick and roll defense.

That's why you will see the Bulls not trading Taj because Mirotic is not the screen and roll defender either. We know Taj has ankle issues and he has not been effective as he could be but the Noah /Taj combo will get more burn in the future as Thibs tightens his rotations as Noah gets more healthy.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#4 » by Rerisen » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:42 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:
Rerisen wrote:NB4 "It's all Derrick Rose"


Going back to this. ....I don't care about stats until now but if there is one thing which probably will not change or the least possible to change is Gasol's pick and roll defense.

That's why you will see the Bulls not trading Taj because Mirotic is not the screen and roll defender either. We know Taj has ankle issues and he has not been effective as he could be but the Noah /Taj combo will get more burn in the future as Thibs tightens his rotations as Noah gets more healthy.


What you are presenting is a Thibs vs FO battle then. Because this isn't tenable long term, past this year.

We are paying Mirotic MLE money to play 13 minutes a game. That will work his rookie year, not past it. Most teams the most expensive bench player they have makes that, who is like their 6th man.

The FO will win this battle, even if they have to trade Taj... or Thibs.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#5 » by DanTown8587 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:55 pm

I love you Doug but the premise is flawed and it starts early

Let's examine how the Bulls attempt to defend the pick and roll.

The guard's responsibility is to almost exclusively fight over the pick


No, the guards sole responsibility in Thibs defense is to DENY the ball handler the ability to use the screen. The problem when Derrick/Brooks dies on a screen is two fold: 1, the first is that he has allowed the ball handler to use the screen and the big man is not expecting that. 2, now Derrick is out of the play and a two-on-one has broken out.

The Bulls are fine with the two guys in a P&R having to beat the two guys guarding it; Thibs (and I firmly agree with him) believes that when you start to use more defenders, you start to give up more shots and you start to become worse on defense.

So what happened when Derrick was dying on screens? Thibs stopped running ICE and instead is switching P&R which considering Gasol's foot-speed is a disaster waiting to happen. While the defense has been just ok the past two weeks (SAS game), before that they were getting murdered on that end.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#6 » by Mech Engineer » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:02 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Rerisen wrote:NB4 "It's all Derrick Rose"


Going back to this. ....I don't care about stats until now but if there is one thing which probably will not change or the least possible to change is Gasol's pick and roll defense.

That's why you will see the Bulls not trading Taj because Mirotic is not the screen and roll defender either. We know Taj has ankle issues and he has not been effective as he could be but the Noah /Taj combo will get more burn in the future as Thibs tightens his rotations as Noah gets more healthy.


What you are presenting is a Thibs vs FO battle then. Because this isn't tenable long term, past this year.

We are paying Mirotic MLE money to play 13 minutes a game. That will work his rookie year, not past it. Most teams the most expensive bench player they have makes that, who is like their 6th man.

The FO will win this battle, even if they have to trade Taj... or Thibs.


Maybe or maybe not. Mirotic might become the passable P & R defender the team needs. We just don't know right now. He has to go through a playoff series or two first to make any conclusions and that is just seeing the intensity, adjustments, practice etc..

That is why I like the Bulls FO sometimes. They are not judging things based on rookie promises or in haste. Things usually never work out logically on how you would expect. It is not about winning battles or wars between each other but doing what is best for the team.

If P & R defense is crucial and that's how Bulls keep losing, then they have to pay attention like the same way they had to do for offense / shooting from the previous years.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#7 » by Rerisen » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:14 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:If P & R defense is crucial and that's how Bulls keep losing, then they have to pay attention like the same way they had to do for offense / shooting from the previous years.


Of course, but what I'm saying if Taj is so critical as the only guy to play elite PnR defense, then we need to play him like 28-30 minutes per game to impact/save the defense in the manner we need. Which is fine if they value Taj's skill at this that highly, but then you don't need 3 other highly paid guys too.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#8 » by kodo » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:16 pm

My biggest problem with this article is that we dropback on the P&R by design. Only Portland drops back more than we do. Gasol & Noah dropping back on the screen and protecting the rim is by design, primarily because our ballhandlers go over the P&R and the guards are supposed to always force the ballhandler to his left side (if right handed). The intent of the design is that the ballhandler now has a shot, but it's a moving mid range 2 pointer towards his offhand w/ the rim protected. Funneling baseline with a big in front of the rim is the core of Thibs defense.

If you're trapping the ballhandler on the baseline the responsibility for picking up the original screener is never the big man, who has to cut off the basket. It's either rotation from another player, or often in our case it's we concede the shot by the big man. Lately we've not been conceding the shot and wings have rotated over.

But probably the biggest problem with this conclusion is if Gasol was have a negative impact on our defense. Gasol has the second highest defensive +/- on the team. Only Noah is higher.

The highest defensive +/- players on this team in order: Noah, Gasol, Taj, Butler.
The lowest defense +/- players on in order: McDermott, Brooks, Rose, Moore.

BBallBreakdown has also shown that in terms of big pairings, the pair without Gasol is overall the worst. (Stats are from earlier this year, not up to date).
Image


The reality is that we may not like how the Bulls defend the pick & roll, but Gasol is doing what Thibodeau is telling him to do, and taking care of his responsibility. I would prefer a more in your face aggressive defense where we challenge the ballhandler and shooters, but this isn't how Thibodeau defends the P&R. In his system a guy protects the rim, another guy funnels baseline, and we let the ballhandler or screener shoot. But in his system we are the #1 team in blocks and more importantly the #1 team in not committing fouls, those both will be huge defensive advantages in the playoffs. The drawn shooting foul is the best half court possession in basketball, and Thibs basically has taken that away by playing the P&R this way.

The other aspect to consider is that our defense isn't "failing", we're the #3 two point FG% defense in the entire league. Our defensive efficiency is middling because of the # of possessions. But you can't blame a football team's defensive squad if the offense keeps turning the ball over.

The real issues with our defense is not the shot defense, but the fact that we're 27th in the league in forcing turnovers and 27th in allowing offensive rebounds.

As I said above, our actual shot defense is elite, #3 on twos and #9 on threes.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#9 » by Payt10 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Pau sucks at defending PnR. Even when the Lakers were champions, PG's used to destroy the Lakers all the time with ball screens because Pau and Bynum couldn't move.

However, the guards are not doing enough on their own to put the blame squarely on Pau because pretty much the same thing is happening when he's off the floor, too. Derrick and Aaron get sucked into a black hole everytime a screener sets a pick.

One of the negatives of being an unathletic team is that the Bulls can't constantly switch on pick and roll defense without getting exploited. So with Pau's inability to hedge screens and an inability to switch all the time, that really limits your options on what you can do.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#10 » by khufure » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:27 pm

Hopefully they take a long 2 or even medium 2... and we're in position for the rebound. Pau is a good enough offensive threat that we can afford this. The layups have got to stop.

I think the listed bball breakdown was accurate at the time but is not going to be truthful in the 2nd half. Noah looks WAY better than he did earlier in the year. Prepare your bodies for DPOY defense.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#11 » by mj234eva » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:33 pm

Image

Tom Thibodeau popularized the drop-back style of defense seen today. There has been some defensive slippage for the Bulls this season as they continue to tinker with their new toys, but they play the same general style. Their conservatism forces few turnovers, with Noah and Gasol almost always dropping back. Fleet-footed power forwards like Gibson and Mirotic will very occasionally show against specific matchups.


Image

Link

Another link to go over:

Trending: On-Ball Screen Defense
by Andrew Cutler
Published Last Thursday at 1:30 AM Pacific Time

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Michael Jordan wrote:Sometimes I wish I could be my teammates looking at that
defense. It must be nice. But it isn't nice for me.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#12 » by bullslas » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:38 pm

What about Rose and Butler consistently letting there man around them so quickly. Butler is not as good on defense this year, and Rose decides when he thinks he needs to play defense. I understand it's a team game, but it starts with the Guards. The guys are getting by Butler and Rose or Brooks way too much. We are putting Gasol on an island and making him look bad.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#13 » by Tenchi Ryu » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Anymore? LOL

Sounds like this is 2012
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#14 » by AirP. » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:48 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:If P & R defense is crucial and that's how Bulls keep losing, then they have to pay attention like the same way they had to do for offense / shooting from the previous years.


Of course, but what I'm saying if Taj is so critical as the only guy to play elite PnR defense, then we need to play him like 28-30 minutes per game to impact/save the defense in the manner we need. Which is fine if they value Taj's skill at this that highly, but then you don't need 3 other highly paid guys too.


Right, if Taj is that valuable to the system then move Mirotic. You can't move Gasol after taking a paycut to come to Chicago and if Taj is that valuable than Noah is more valuable when healthy. Either you move one of your bench bigs for help at the wings or you're basically saying as a FO, we're not going to sacrifice our future to try to win a championship. They did it 4 seasons ago when they needed a SG but their extra bigman "Asik" wasn't worth sacrificing to give the Bulls a good chance at winning a championship Rose's MVP season. Hard to believe those 14.7 minutes were way more valuable than an upgrade at SG. We're at the same crossroads this season.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#15 » by maynardo » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:52 pm

I think the problem is both DRose and Pau Gasol, both of them are really bad at defending the pick and roll at their respective positions.

That's one the 2 main issues with the bulls:

1.- You wanna score on the bulls? ... Use a high pick and roll involving Rose and Pau, sorround with shooting to avoid help and it's clean high % shot anytime you need.

2.- You wanna defend the bulls? ... Pack the paint and dare them to shoot, without dunleavy they have no reliable 3 point shooter and even with him, you can still use 4 guys to pack the paint and Rose thinks 3s are good shots for him.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#16 » by Tenchi Ryu » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:56 pm

Come on Doug you my guy, but where was this when DJ was getting killed in the PnR? When Nate always got screened hard. CJ was terrible with it to. This isn't a sudden thing, we've always been terrible guarding it. The Thib system has always been bad at defending it. It's just the NBA teams are using it at an all time high now so its more obvious.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#17 » by Axl Rose » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:00 pm

Rose and Gasol
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#18 » by Axl Rose » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:04 pm

Tenchi Ryu wrote:Come on Doug you my guy, but where was this when DJ was getting killed in the PnR? When Nate always got screened hard. CJ was terrible with it to. This isn't a sudden thing, we've always been terrible guarding it. The Thib system has always been bad at defending it. It's just the NBA teams are using it at an all time high now so its more obvious.


huh?

defending the PNR is one of the biggest strengths in his defense

now we can't defend it its no surprise we are horrible on D
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#19 » by Payt10 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:10 pm

AirGordon7 wrote:
Tenchi Ryu wrote:Come on Doug you my guy, but where was this when DJ was getting killed in the PnR? When Nate always got screened hard. CJ was terrible with it to. This isn't a sudden thing, we've always been terrible guarding it. The Thib system has always been bad at defending it. It's just the NBA teams are using it at an all time high now so its more obvious.


huh?

defending the PNR is one of the biggest strengths in his defense

now we can't defend it its no surprised we are horrible on D

Well, sort of. The Bulls used to be good at not allowing guards or bigs to score in the paint off PnR. They would take the roll out of the equation, but they would constantly leave the pick and pop wide open and would often get abused by the Chris Bosh's or David West's of the world who could sit back and make shots from the elbow all day.
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Re: DougThonus: Why can't the Bulls defend the pick and roll anymore? 

Post#20 » by bullslas » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:11 pm

Tenchi Ryu wrote:Come on Doug you my guy, but where was this when DJ was getting killed in the PnR? When Nate always got screened hard. CJ was terrible with it to. This isn't a sudden thing, we've always been terrible guarding it. The Thib system has always been bad at defending it. It's just the NBA teams are using it at an all time high now so its more obvious.


This is 100% correct. When has it been good? Every year, we complain about the same thing, and this is one of them.

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