Doc's Latest Guard Obsession: Sebastian Telfair

[Clemenza]

I think I agree with you at this point. It's not not happening though, since he got a fat extension.

Regardless of how we do in the playoffs, we absolutely need to bring in some legit front office people. Doc has absolutely no place as the head of basketball operations. I don't understand why Ballmer didn't bring in some quant/analytics guys or at least somebody who's been around the league to fall into that role/GM/assistant GM. All he did was bring in a president with no basketball experience.

We could hire Buford, Morey, and Ainge, and Doc still wouldn't listen to any of them. See: the Hassan Whiteside fiasco. The front office wanted him, Doc refused to give him a look. IIRC, it was the same thing with KJ McDaniels. And even if GM Doc listened to his front office on the players they wanted, Coach Doc would simply refuse to play them since veterans like Hedo and Big Baby are entitled to minutes for life in his eyes.

Doc has to be straight-up fired, we need to get a real GM and coach, and we need to seriously consider shopping two of the Big Three for youth and picks. It's the only way we're getting out of the mess we're in, whether people want to accept that or not.

The whole point of hiring someone like you've mentioned is that you put them in charge of roster construction and give the coach no discretion in player acquisitions. You basically use the coach for one off input if you want to consult him. It's a lot easier for coaches to bring small subjectivities and biases into who they value, and that's why it's better to keep the roles split. It works just fine for organizations who put competent people in both jobs. We don't currently have a real front office, so there isn't much of a point in pretending there are any kind of internal controls with regard to our team or acquisitions that Doc is overstepping.

I agree that Doc is obviously stubborn about who he plays, but if we didn't have this idiotic revolving doors of scrubs, he wouldn't even try to leverage playing his favorite scraps that are currently on our bench. If we had a front office with an understanding of value in the NBA's market, I'd infer that we'd have a better constructed roster. I'd like to think there wouldn't even be any argument for playing guys who should be 12th men. The front office issue is a lot easier to start remedying in the interim, it's just a matter of someone waking Ballmer up.

This is a new NBA and Doc's simply isn't on board with it. Every team surrounds their core(if they have one) with a older vet or two and fill out the rest of the roster with young athletes via draft or free agency. Why would you surround Blake, CP3, and DJ with aging washed up vets who have no trade value and who probably would be out of the league if they weren't on our team? Its absolutely mind-boggling. So now we're a team that trades away all its draft picks and assets and we don't develop players anymore? Ask the Lakers how far it got them while employing that strategy. Now look at all these teams coming at us in waves this season. But we're built like its 2009, This isn't that type of NBA anymore. If Doc doesn't get on board and change his ways then our future is looking bleak cause of right now the CP3, Blake, DJ window is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

[clip set]

We could hire Buford, Morey, and Ainge, and Doc still wouldn't listen to any of them. See: the Hassan Whiteside fiasco. The front office wanted him, Doc refused to give him a look. IIRC, it was the same thing with KJ McDaniels. And even if GM Doc listened to his front office on the players they wanted, Coach Doc would simply refuse to play them since veterans like Hedo and Big Baby are entitled to minutes for life in his eyes.

Doc has to be straight-up fired, we need to get a real GM and coach, and we need to seriously consider shopping two of the Big Three for youth and picks. It's the only way we're getting out of the mess we're in, whether people want to accept that or not.

The whole point of hiring someone like you've mentioned is that you put them in charge of roster construction and give the coach no discretion in player acquisitions. You basically use the coach for one off input if you want to consult him. It's a lot easier for coaches to bring small subjectivities and biases into who they value, and that's why it's better to keep the roles split. It works just fine for organizations who put competent people in both jobs. We don't currently have a real front office, so there isn't much of a point in pretending there are any kind of internal controls with regard to our team or acquisitions that Doc is overstepping.

I agree that Doc is obviously stubborn about who he plays, but if we didn't have this idiotic revolving doors of scrubs, he wouldn't even try to leverage playing his favorite scraps that are currently on our bench. If we had a front office with an understanding of value in the NBA's market, I'd infer that we'd have a better constructed roster. I'd like to think there wouldn't even be any argument for playing guys who should be 12th men. The front office issue is a lot easier to start remedying in the interim, it's just a matter of someone waking Ballmer up.

This is a new NBA and Doc's simply isn't on board with it. Every team surrounds their core(if they have one) with a older vet or two and fill out the rest of the roster with young athletes via draft or free agency. Why would you surround Blake, CP3, and DJ with aging washed up vets who have no trade value and who probably would be out of the league if they weren't on our team? Its absolutely mind-boggling. So now we're a team that trades away all its draft picks and assets and we don't develop players anymore? Ask the Lakers how far it got them while employing that strategy. Now look at all these teams coming at us in waves this season. But we're built like its 2009, This isn't that type of NBA anymore. If Doc doesn't get on board and change his ways then our future is looking bleak cause of right now the CP3, Blake, DJ window is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

Yea I agree with all of that. The problem is still fundamentally that we don't have a front office with any weight. You don't think a strong front office and owner drive the construction of a team? I don't even think Doc is a great coach, but it's really a secondary problem compared to exactly what you're saying - he has no idea how to adequately value our assets and construct a roster. If you have that handled externally, he isn't going to be ramming a bunch of ridiculous transactions down everyone's throats. I sure bet he'd adapt to the players acquired if they're superior to the trash that he keeps recycling.

Supplanting him in the front office ASAP is a much easier and more practical solution than completely firing a guy who just got a $50mm extension. It isn't happening, so there's no point in even pretending that it might. What we can hope for is to get a strong contingency in the front office and remove Doc from his bball operations role. The problem is that I don't think Ballmer understands how to execute at this point.

[MartinToVaught]

A strong front office won't change the fact that Coach Doc refuses (and is probably unable) to develop players and stubbornly sticks to his nonsensical rotations. Ballmer spent $2 billion on this team, eating a $50 million contract is a drop in the bucket by comparison. Doc needs to go and then we have to start cleaning up the mess he made ASAP. The alternative is becoming Brooklyn Nets West.

[LACtdom]

i sell JC and keep JJ every time.

I 100% agree but according to Doc, JJ isn't good enough to play late in the 4th. I think the majority of people would prefer to keep JJ but taking into account Doc's "Jamal Love" aspect, I think it's 50/50.

i misread this and for a good ten seconds i thought you were saying jj wasn't good enough to play in the 4th and not doc and i was about to start typing some very angry internet words


and despite how godawful he has been as a gm and despite his insistence on playing jamal in the 4th, i don't think doc is dumb enough to value him over jj.

you have to be billy knight kind of stupid to think jamal's worth more and doc's not there yet. right?

...


right?

I always type as I'm thinking so my sentences are never structured well. Hope this clarifies things:

I would trade Jamal for a box of tissues just so I could hand out the tissues to the crying fans of the team who acquired Jamal.

[QRich3]

The whole point of hiring someone like you've mentioned is that you put them in charge of roster construction and give the coach no discretion in player acquisitions. You basically use the coach for one off input if you want to consult him. It's a lot easier for coaches to bring small subjectivities and biases into who they value, and that's why it's better to keep the roles split. It works just fine for organizations who put competent people in both jobs. We don't currently have a real front office, so there isn't much of a point in pretending there are any kind of internal controls with regard to our team or acquisitions that Doc is overstepping.

I agree that Doc is obviously stubborn about who he plays, but if we didn't have this idiotic revolving doors of scrubs, he wouldn't even try to leverage playing his favorite scraps that are currently on our bench. If we had a front office with an understanding of value in the NBA's market, I'd infer that we'd have a better constructed roster. I'd like to think there wouldn't even be any argument for playing guys who should be 12th men. The front office issue is a lot easier to start remedying in the interim, it's just a matter of someone waking Ballmer up.

This is a new NBA and Doc's simply isn't on board with it. Every team surrounds their core(if they have one) with a older vet or two and fill out the rest of the roster with young athletes via draft or free agency. Why would you surround Blake, CP3, and DJ with aging washed up vets who have no trade value and who probably would be out of the league if they weren't on our team? Its absolutely mind-boggling. So now we're a team that trades away all its draft picks and assets and we don't develop players anymore? Ask the Lakers how far it got them while employing that strategy. Now look at all these teams coming at us in waves this season. But we're built like its 2009, This isn't that type of NBA anymore. If Doc doesn't get on board and change his ways then our future is looking bleak cause of right now the CP3, Blake, DJ window is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

Yea I agree with all of that. The problem is still fundamentally that we don't have a front office with any weight. You don't think a strong front office and owner drive the construction of a team? I don't even think Doc is a great coach, but it's really a secondary problem compared to exactly what you're saying - he has no idea how to adequately value our assets and construct a roster. If you have that handled externally, he isn't going to be ramming a bunch of ridiculous transactions down everyone's throats. I sure bet he'd adapt to the players acquired if they're superior to the trash that he keeps recycling.

Supplanting him in the front office ASAP is a much easier and more practical solution than completely firing a guy who just got a $50mm extension. It isn't happening, so there's no point in even pretending that it might. What we can hope for is to get a strong contingency in the front office and remove Doc from his bball operations role. The problem is that I don't think Ballmer understands how to execute at this point.

Yeah, it'd be lovely if they could just tell him to coach and shut up, and brought in a team of people with good player evaluation skills and capable of long term roster building. But that would not only piss off Doc, it'd mean firing a couple of his right-hand guys (Eastman and Dave Wohl for starters), and if that were to happen I doubt he'd be ok just staying as a coach. Specially with how power-hungry he's showed to be. And he's a great coach, we'd have a lot of trouble to find a coach as good as him on the open market.

There's not an easy solution, Ballmer f*cked up by giving him that extension and all that power, and there's no easy way out from this unless you rebuild the whole front office and coaching staff. Which would be pretty risky and stupid imo.

[KDRE]

Man Gary sacks wasn't that bad at all. DOC is about to make this team the Clippers of old in a few.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/rafael_uehara/status/565169629644197889[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Chris_Reichert/status/565307210675527681[/tweet]

[nickhx2]

if doc could he would pay a first round pick to have that tweet deleted.

REMOVE

ALL

TRACES

[Quake Griffin]

makes some people get mad at Doc.

makes me say, "**** Dudley"
I hate when players do that.

Played like a straight bitch while in our jersey.

[og15]

makes some people get mad at Doc.

makes me say, "**** Dudley"
I hate when players do that.

Played like a straight bitch while in our jersey.

I don't know if I'd really blame him. Dudley didn't tank as a Clipper, he tried he was just not as good as he could be. The guy was injured, forced to play injured due to the roster situation which just made things worse, then Doc moved him in the off-season, knowing full well that he would have a bounce back season after getting healthy. Not only did he move him though, he unnecessarily traded a first round pick in order to move him.

Moving him really wasn't the worst part, it was trading a first round pick in order to do so. It didn't make sense then and still doesn't make sense now.

It's generally a bad decision to judge a players ability based on one season when they have about 5 seasons of work before that unless they have some new situation that is going to permanently affect their performance.

[og15]

I 100% agree but according to Doc, JJ isn't good enough to play late in the 4th. I think the majority of people would prefer to keep JJ but taking into account Doc's "Jamal Love" aspect, I think it's 50/50.

i misread this and for a good ten seconds i thought you were saying jj wasn't good enough to play in the 4th and not doc and i was about to start typing some very angry internet words


and despite how godawful he has been as a gm and despite his insistence on playing jamal in the 4th, i don't think doc is dumb enough to value him over jj.

you have to be billy knight kind of stupid to think jamal's worth more and doc's not there yet. right?

...


right?

I always type as I'm thinking so my sentences are never structured well. Hope this clarifies things:

I would trade Jamal for a box of tissues just so I could hand out the tissues to the crying fans of the team who acquired Jamal.

I wouldn't go that far, but for the right return, based on Jamal's age (34 turning 35 in about a month and a half), and his production over:

Last 30 games:
.500 TS% / 103 Ortg / 15.5 ppg / 36.3% FG / 30.8% 3PT

Last 20 games:
.488 TS% / 101 Ortg / 15.2 ppg / 35.4% FG / 29.2% 3PT

Last 15 games:
.488 TS% / 103 Ortg / 17.0 ppg / 35.9% FG / 29.3% 3PT

Last 10 games:
.475 TS% / 101 Ortg / 17.1 ppg / 35.2% FG / 28.8% 3PT

Last 5 games:
.460 TS% / 96 Ortg / 18.8 ppg / 36.6% FG / 25.0% 3PT

I posted the different splits so we could see if the production was getting better. If his production continues on that path it really isn't very helpful to the team as he doesn't do enough in drawing defenses or playmaking in order to justify that kind of shooting, but he does at least draw fouls to save it a little bit because without that he would be shooting about as well as Austin Rivers just taking more shots. In addition he doesn't do much to help defense or rebounding again to justify the poor production.

I know some people love scoring without context and also isolation ability and can't understand how there's a limit to how much the ability to score is actually valuable, but this Jamal isn't helping the Clippers much in comparison to a replacement player that might be less talented as an isolation scorer but better in other areas.

[LACtdom]

i misread this and for a good ten seconds i thought you were saying jj wasn't good enough to play in the 4th and not doc and i was about to start typing some very angry internet words


and despite how godawful he has been as a gm and despite his insistence on playing jamal in the 4th, i don't think doc is dumb enough to value him over jj.

you have to be billy knight kind of stupid to think jamal's worth more and doc's not there yet. right?

...


right?

I always type as I'm thinking so my sentences are never structured well. Hope this clarifies things:

I would trade Jamal for a box of tissues just so I could hand out the tissues to the crying fans of the team who acquired Jamal.

I wouldn't go that far, but for the right return, based on Jamal's age (34 turning 35 in about a month and a half), and his production over:

Last 30 games:
.500 TS% / 103 Ortg / 15.5 ppg / 36.3% FG / 30.8% 3PT

Last 20 games:
.488 TS% / 101 Ortg / 15.2 ppg / 35.4% FG / 29.2% 3PT

Last 15 games:
.488 TS% / 103 Ortg / 17.0 ppg / 35.9% FG / 29.3% 3PT

Last 10 games:
.475 TS% / 101 Ortg / 17.1 ppg / 35.2% FG / 28.8% 3PT

Last 5 games:
.460 TS% / 96 Ortg / 18.8 ppg / 36.6% FG / 25.0% 3PT

I posted the different splits so we could see if the production was getting better. If his production continues on that path it really isn't very helpful to the team as he doesn't do enough in drawing defenses or playmaking in order to justify that kind of shooting, but he does at least draw fouls to save it a little bit because without that he would be shooting about as well as Austin Rivers just taking more shots. In addition he doesn't do much to help defense or rebounding again to justify the poor production.

I know some people love scoring without context and also isolation ability and can't understand how there's a limit to how much the ability to score is actually valuable, but this Jamal isn't helping the Clippers much in comparison to a replacement player that might be less talented as an isolation scorer but better in other areas.

I believe that he will always be a liability to this team if he continues to play in the 4th quarter.
So let's see how he goes with our starters against the opposition starters.

He cannot defend a single Western conference playoff starting SG or SF.
On offense his only use is a catch and shoot player.
If he handles the ball then he is taking it away from our two best players, one of whom is a better shooter this year and is great at decision making and not giving up turnovers.
Jamal's iso play is the equivalent of a timeout. It kills any momentum we had and stops the ball movement.
Jamal isn't even great at spacing the floor because of his lazy standing around the perimeter (compared to JJ's constant motion).

With all that being said, I think Jamal could be an asset each and every game but because of his decision making along with Doc's use of him, his negative aspects are compounded and he is only useful if he is hot and scoring with the bench.

[QRich3]

I believe that he will always be a liability to this team if he continues to play in the 4th quarter.
So let's see how he goes with our starters against the opposition starters.

He cannot defend a single Western conference playoff starting SG or SF.
On offense his only use is a catch and shoot player.
If he handles the ball then he is taking it away from our two best players, one of whom is a better shooter this year and is great at decision making and not giving up turnovers.
Jamal's iso play is the equivalent of a timeout. It kills any momentum we had and stops the ball movement.
Jamal isn't even great at spacing the floor because of his lazy standing around the perimeter (compared to JJ's constant motion).

With all that being said, I think Jamal could be an asset each and every game but because of his decision making along with Doc's use of him, his negative aspects are compounded and he is only useful if he is hot and scoring with the bench.

I do think he's a good catch-and-shoot player and a good drive-and-dish guy, he's clearly a positive impact in our offense in that regard. And his ability to find a 40% shot in any situation, even if the shot clock is expiring and he has two defenders in his face, is quite a valuable quality.

But his defense hurts us so much, and his stubborn inefficient isolations happen so often, that I think we'd be better just removing him, even if we don't add anything at all in exchange. I'm coming around to a trade that I previously said I wouldn't do, sending him to Charlotte for Gerald Henderson. But with Hendo having some good numbers games and the Hornets adding Mo, I'm not even sure if Jamal can fetch such a low return now.

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/565667980718395393[/tweet]

[og15]

Dudley on the Clippers starts at 11 mins

[Ranma]

Dudley on the Clippers starts at 11 mins

Thanks, og15. I saw the tweet at work and didn't even have a chance to listen to it until just now. During the interview, Jared basically described Doc as being tone-deaf to his injury, which initially was thought to be tendinitis but originated from a back injury, apparently. The funny thing is that after Dudley was traded to Milwaukee, the Bucks had a guy based out of L.A. develop a program for him that basically got him up and running within a week. This is further testament to not only Doc's narrow-mindedness but also the Clippers' training staff continued incompetence relative to other teams.

[Neddy]

Dudley on the Clippers starts at 11 mins

Thanks, og15. I saw the tweet at work and didn't even have a chance to listen to it until just now. During the interview, Jared basically described Doc as being tone-deaf to his injury, which initially was thought to be tendinitis but originated from a back injury, apparently. The funny thing is that after Dudley was traded to Milwaukee, the Bucks had a guy based out of L.A. develop a program for him that basically got him up and running within a week. This is further testament to not only Doc's narrow-mindedness but also the Clippers' training staff continued incompetence relative to other teams.

I will say this... being a long timer of this franchise and seeing all the cheap DTS hires around this team, the training staff we have is the cheapest you can ever buy around NBA....... we need a real professional group of medically competent people to lead us into the future. Jason Powell is a nice guy, the type of guy anyone would want to cheer on and pull for, but Jason's track record does not exactly inspire confidence in terms of his history with the players we've had hurt, or his academic records prior. SDSU transfer to Cal Poly to play PG for them... okay......

as for doc, I will be careful to choose my words as i still have respect and hope for him but you are right, somethings aren't quite right. hope Doc gets this ship righted soon, but i also think it is possible that Ballmer should not have given doc both the long term deal AND the personnel power.

[QRich3]

Yeah, it was painful to listen how after a year of not being able to play comfortably because of a nagging minor injury, he gets to Milwakee and they get him right after a week of rehab. He is playing really well on both ends now, he's exactly the kind of guy we could use at the wing, as expected when we traded for him.

It's frustrating that Doc didn't give him the time to get well and threw away a pick to dump him, when he's now clearly worth a pick to get him. But I kinda understand Doc's perspective and I think Dudley does too, from the way he speaks about the situation. We had Barnes and Redick out and no one to man the wing positions, you let Dudley sit for a month and you have to play the majority of the games with a rookie Bullock, we do that and we likely lose a lot of games that maybe makes us play the Spurs or the Thunder in the 1st round instead of the Warriors, now you're looking at another disappointment, a probable 1st round exit, and a lot heat from the media and us fans.

I get that Doc's biggest problem is not looking at the bigger picture and long term results, but I get that for a coach to have a winning team, patience is not something that should be a priority. Problem is he's also our GM, and those guys are the ones who need to have patience and long term roster-building skills.

[KDRE]

Not even sure why its a question. Doc RIvers is not a good GM.

I wouldnt even take extra time to evaluate it, its as plain as day. If Ballmer sits on his behind and allows it to happen then he deserves to lose.

[nickhx2]

Yeah, it was painful to listen how after a year of not being able to play comfortably because of a nagging minor injury, he gets to Milwakee and they get him right after a week of rehab. He is playing really well on both ends now, he's exactly the kind of guy we could use at the wing, as expected when we traded for him.

It's frustrating that Doc didn't give him the time to get well and threw away a pick to dump him, when he's now clearly worth a pick to get him. But I kinda understand Doc's perspective and I think Dudley does too, from the way he speaks about the situation. We had Barnes and Redick out and no one to man the wing positions, you let Dudley sit for a month and you have to play the majority of the games with a rookie Bullock, we do that and we likely lose a lot of games that maybe makes us play the Spurs or the Thunder in the 1st round instead of the Warriors, now you're looking at another disappointment, a probable 1st round exit, and a lot heat from the media and us fans.

I get that Doc's biggest problem is not looking at the bigger picture and long term results, but I get that for a coach to have a winning team, patience is not something that should be a priority. Problem is he's also our GM, and those guys are the ones who need to have patience and long term roster-building skills.

I get doc's mentality. When you arrive at training camp you have 12+ other guys who are basically all-in, and if you come into camp out of shape what does that say about you, exactly? To compete at the highest level you need to have a certain commitment or care factor, and if you have anything less than that you lose some respect from the guy in charge. I'd probably feel the same way as doc at that point and I might not ever be able to get past the feeling in the back of my mind that this guy wasn't all-in from the start.

I feel it's a little disrespectful to not be fully ready for camp, but at the same time you have to see the forest for the trees and you can't go screwing with your lifelines just cause you're mad at one guy. They might not ever have been chums but given a chance all they needed was to be professionals.

Very sad that it didn't happen and I'll always HIGHLY disapprove of how doc handled the everything of it.