Official Trade Thread: The Block Is Hot!!

[batsmasher]

1. Chuck isn't worth talking about. He's an idiot.

2. Jordan Schultz is about as reliable as a hamster. Anything he says is completely wrong.

[DRK]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AZSports/status/565643571567792129[/tweet]
Damn right its your fault.

Time for McD to fix things up.

[SSOL]

Another point....talent wins. NO KIDDING. And you know what, the analytical data supports that!!! PER, EFG, TS%, USG Rate - all of it creates a value. Never, not once, have those values said a good player was a good player when they were not. A high efg% ,with a high ts%, with a high usage rate = a great player. Ask LeBron. Ask KD. Ask Harden. Those player's numbers are through the roof in those categories. Saying talent wins and analytics don't is foolish because the analytics actually support the statement that talent wins. Understand something before you choose to go at it.

[letsgosuns]

Charles Barkley sometimes says things that are utterly ridiculous and make no sense. Like how he said all of last season that the Spurs had "No Chance" to win the title and was adamant on saying that over and over again. Then of course the Spurs won and Barkley looked like a fool. However I agree with him 100% about his analysis of the Suns. He keeps saying it is impossible to win playing three little point guards. It is so obvious. It is common sense. Big wins in this league. What he is saying is not just obvious, it is painfully obvious. I saw several times last night in the fourth quarter it was Bledsoe and Dragic trying to box out and get rebounds. Then Josh Smith or Corey Brewer just jumped right over them and got the rebound. That is how bad it was. Although, this is all on Hornacek. He is the buffoon that plays that stupid lineup, allows the team to come out asleep in the first quarter of almost every game, and refuses to give the young guys any meaningful playing time.

[kennydorglas]

Geez, Barkley is so ignorant haha

[Grots]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GeryWoelfel/status/565699990711173122[/tweet]

Never heard of this guy.

[bwgood77]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GeryWoelfel/status/565699990711173122[/tweet]

Never heard of this guy.

Looks somewhat legit. He's followed by the basketball writers from espn, cbs, grantland, USA Today, and some league executives and even Paul Coro!

[Safety Pickle]

Chuck is an entertainer. He's not there to provide brilliant analysis, he's there to crack jokes and argue with the others. The only analysis I like on that show is when C-Webb is on

[Sunsdeuce]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GeryWoelfel/status/565699990711173122[/tweet]

Never heard of this guy.

That tweet is a moronic statement. "Heard the Suns want a first," no flocking $h!t! No the Suns are looking for a garbage role player and you can throw in a late second round pick.

Gonna take more than just a first. Who ever this guy is, he just tweeted the doesnt crap of the year.

[Jdiddy701]

First rounder sounds good and all but I want more.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[lilfishi22]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GeryWoelfel/status/565699990711173122[/tweet]

Never heard of this guy.

Apparently a Milwaukee based jounalist and self-professed basketball insider (according to his Twitter lol)

[bwgood77]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AZSports/status/565643571567792129[/tweet]
Damn right its your fault.

Time for McD to fix things up.

Damn if Dragic gets traded it's just a huge botch of a move to sign IT last summer. Not only did it destroy chemistry but basically you pretty much tell your All NBA guard that you still need more point guards...even after drafting one.

At the time I didn't mind the move because it seemed like good value but it has backfired big time. We are also an injury or two from our injury prone players away from being really bad, though I guess some of the fans around here want us to be really bad.

It will be interesting to see what happens to attendance next year if Dragic is gone.

[thamadkant]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GeryWoelfel/status/565699990711173122[/tweet]

Never heard of this guy.

Looks somewhat legit. He's followed by the basketball writers from espn, cbs, grantland, USA Today, and some league executives and even Paul Coro!

Rockets trade D.Mo to a 3rd team for a pick 8-12...

Rockets package that to the Suns for Dragic.



But if not Rockets, I can see Pacers trading an expiring.





How about Dragic + Green for Bargnani (expiring) and rights to swap picks with Knicks

[Revived]

I hate, hate, hate when people disregard statistics in order to rely on what their eyes tell them. You do realize that stats are derived from the games you are watching, right?
You bring up points allowed, but you did not bring up pace. The Suns are second in pace, meaning possessions per game. Because of the pace, both teams will score more due to the added possessions. That's why defensive rating is important, it negates the issue of pace.
You do have an argument on point in the paint but please don't tell me that your eyes see something the stats don't. It's the other way around (stats see what you don't).

If you're using points allowed, you're either living in 1995 or trying to find a stat that fits YOUR narrative. You know full well that points allowed doesn't adjust for pace, so why are you pointing to that as the be all end all? You can't make up some hilarious BS about this being A) a HORRIBLE defensive team and B) the "worst defensive team in franchise history" and then not expect to get called out on that nonsense.

I never said we were a good defensive team. We're below average using the eye test, and we're below average using defensive rating AND defensive FG%. Funny how that works, eh?

One of us is sticking to the facts, and it's not you. You're clearly biased trying to tear down Horny, and now you're straight up inventing things to do it.

The funny thing is that you probably think I think this team is perfect and has no flaws, when that couldn't be further from the truth. I only seem like a delusional optimist in your eyes because you're skewed so far the other way that anybody sitting in the middle seems extreme to you.

Oh, and you can't find a stat that says Nash was the best PG of all time, because stats actual reflect reality, unlike whatever you're trying to do.

I was gonna respond to this but the greatest Suns player of all time and top 20 big man of all time both did it for me

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWqYMqapuXQ&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

I don't agree with it completely that stats should be ignored completely but I think Chuck makes a good point in that some people only use stats to make their judgement/observations. We even have posters on here who do that.

Even McD today when he said that he doesn't rely on stats only or even rely on stats mostly and that he uses it 50/50 basically.

My thoughts on this can be here because I 100% agree with these two posts below:

Stats are a tool. Every good scout will tell you that stats/advanced stats are a tool to help in player evaluation but should never be the sole reason in player evaluation. They are an aide nothing more. A whole picture has to be used for real assessment (game tape, live games, stats).

There is a reason scouts, GMs, coaches go to games of players they want through the draft or trade. They want to get a visual perspective of the player.

He's not wrong to a certain extent. Analytics are a useful tool to view the results based on specific variables in a vacuum. They allow you to create situations and to manipulate variables to determine how that affects outcomes, which is all great stuff to boast about in statistics. I just don't think it applies universally and even with tweaks I think these models lack a lot of objectivity and sense of reality and that's why they're often wrong. Of course they are bound to be right a lot too because they run through so many trials, but the efficiency and effectiveness of analytic's can and should be questioned.

Really, two things happen when something new is introduced. There is a large group of people who completely denies it and prefers the old way. There is another large group who immediately accepts everything this new invention brings and wishes to utilize it in everything they do. I think that is the issue here. Since the invention and the rise of computers, we have tried to use them in just about every way possible and they've done a lot to help us in almost every field. I just think there comes a point where some things don't apply universally and I feel like analytics falls into that category, especially when used in sports. I think most analytical tools in sports should be taken with a grain of salt, and that is not to say that they are useless in sports but I think they have limited valuable abilities.

Back to Chuck's point, I do agree that in sports, all that really matters is the talent, the coaches and how those two factors fit together to perform on the court. That is all (not counting injuries & off-court issues). It's unfair to attribute coaching changes to analytics completely. Watching tape can and has achieved similar results (ie. figuring out a players shooting spots, where they are more successful, where players need to be for the play to be most effective) in the past and would continue to do so regardless of whether or not some sophisticated models were applied to the information/footage. Essentially, it makes some of these things easier but it is in no means completely new or a ground breaking phenomenon that has changed the NBA landscape. It is indeed a way to make front offices' seem more competent. Putting together the team can be easier with the use of analytics, especially when drafting or signing young talents, but the impact is trivial when you talk about established players because you know what they are regardless of analytics. So yes, they can be extremely useful in certain situations but the accuracy, efficiency and effectiveness of such models should be in question, not the tool itself.

Most people will probably write this off as Chuck being Chuck which is fine, but he does have a point and he's at least partially correct.
Don't think he needed to say it the way he did, but that's expected from Chuck.
Sorry about my rant, I doubt I made much sense, I'll be happy if even one person understands what I'm trying to convey.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only who feels this way as most people in this thread agreed or sided with the point that Chuck's not completely wrong and that he's most right than wrong in his rant.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1372057#start_here

You realize that Chuck's comments were HEAVILY mocked today, right? He made ZERO sense. The Rockets don't care that they gave up the 118...BECAUSE THEY WON. They are in the upper echelon of defensive teams in this league. If you consider points given up as a metric indicative of whether a team is good or bad defensively, you are way, way behind. I feel sorry for you. To be clear, stats are a tool and need to be used in a marriage with the eye test. However, you simply choose to create a conclusion (Suns are bad because they give up points) when I directly negated your point by adding pace to the equation. When you can negate the fact that pace accounts for more possessions, which equates to more shot attempts, which equates to MORE POINTS, let me know. The Suns could be a bad defensive team, but don't tell me they are because they give up a lot of points. Not, when they are 2nd in the league in pace.

I never said we're a bad defensive team because we give up a ton of points. We're a bad defensive team because the other teams score easily on us, we're among the worst in stopping anyone at the rim and we are bad at second chance points as well.

And yea I'm sure Chuck was mocked...by exact type of people that he was talking about. People who werent good enough to play so they talk about it instead.

I already said I don't agree with Charles completely but regardless, if I had to, I would take the word of two HOFers over yours anyday.

[Revived]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AZSports/status/565643571567792129[/tweet]
Damn right its your fault.

Time for McD to fix things up.

Damn if Dragic gets traded it's just a huge botch of a move to sign IT last summer. Not only did it destroy chemistry but basically you pretty much tell your All NBA guard that you still need more point guards...even after drafting one.

At the time I didn't mind the move because it seemed like good value but it has backfired big time. We are also an injury or two from our injury prone players away from being really bad, though I guess some of the fans around here want us to be really bad.

It will be interesting to see what happens to attendance next year if Dragic is gone.

This is what I'm wondering as well. Are the Suns really gonna pick IT over Dragic?

I would rather give Dragic the same type of contract we gave Bledsoe and then have the same type of success and fun we had last year when both were healthy than pay IT for $7M/yr when he just doesn't fit.

[SunsFanSSOL]

Suns looking for 1st round picks that they can bench and never play.

[lilfishi22]

Damn if Dragic gets traded it's just a huge botch of a move to sign IT last summer. Not only did it destroy chemistry but basically you pretty much tell your All NBA guard that you still need more point guards...even after drafting one.

At the time I didn't mind the move because it seemed like good value but it has backfired big time. We are also an injury or two from our injury prone players away from being really bad, though I guess some of the fans around here want us to be really bad.

It will be interesting to see what happens to attendance next year if Dragic is gone.

We made a HUGE mistake the last time around trading Dragic + 2nd for Brooks. We better not make the same mistake again

[JTrain]

I will cry if Dragic is traded.

Also, please don't feel bad for people who consider points given up as a metric indicative of whether a team is good or bad defensively. Feel bad for people whose homes burned down or who have RLS.

[AZWildByNature]

Damn if Dragic gets traded it's just a huge botch of a move to sign IT last summer. Not only did it destroy chemistry but basically you pretty much tell your All NBA guard that you still need more point guards...even after drafting one.

At the time I didn't mind the move because it seemed like good value but it has backfired big time. We are also an injury or two from our injury prone players away from being really bad, though I guess some of the fans around here want us to be really bad.

It will be interesting to see what happens to attendance next year if Dragic is gone.

We made a HUGE mistake the last time around trading Dragic + 2nd for Brooks. We better not make the same mistake again

Actually, the Suns traded Dragic and a first for Brooks.

[sunsfever68]

I get the Suns thought

Save 7M a year paying Thomas instead of 14M a year for Dragic for close to the same production

Thomas is nothing more than a 6th man not a starter.


Dragic is a legit starter and would perform better without Thomas here taking up minutes and hogging the ball


Dragic over Thomas all day