We all need to thank the Phoenix Suns.

[spearsy23]

I'm glad for you. Enjoy the next 5-7 years in the treadmill.

I don't see how you could have the audacity to criticize any other team.

[NavLDO]

Said it earlier but I'll say it again since the thread has come back to life like a phoenix (see what I did there?....never mind).

Of the five players taken before Noel the two that it would be weird to make this thread about are Len and Oladipo as they have both exceeded expectations. Make this thread about Cleveland or Washington and most of the responses would just be "yup, you're right."

It was reported that the Suns training staff were highly suspect of Noel's knee, but were comfortable with Len's feet. Otherwise, yes, the Suns may very well have taken Noel. But all things being equal, and were both non-injured, I still believe the Suns take Len 9 times out of 10. Len has an offensive game that Noel is likely never to have. Noel has a defensive prowess that Len is likely never to attain. Regarding impact to the team--Len's defense is better than Noel's offense, so I believe it came down to that, even if Noel's defense is slightly better than Len's Offense. Len was the more balanced prospect, not to mention the more 'solid' prospect. Athletic 7'1" guys are a rare commodity--which is more rare than Noel's capabilities.

And one thing to keep in mind was that Len was projected to go higher than Noel, even #1 in many mocks, so choosing Len over Noel was a no-brainer.

Enjoy Noel--he's gonna be a great defender. But if the intent behind this thread was that Phoenix somehow made a mistake in selecting Len over Noel, I believe that sentiment is just flat out wrong--sorry. Had Philly been 5th and Phx 6th, I believe the results are the same, so I'm not saying that Len is the better player, just that for the Suns, he was the logical choice, just like Noel was the logical choice for the Sixers.

Lol. Athletic 7'1'' guys are more rare than hyper-athletic 6'11'' guys who have historically good block and steal rates?

LOL. You can keep your 'historical', I'll take the 'actual', thanks! Less minutes, more blocks, more Rebs. Oh, and yeah, and I'll take the clear advantage in TS% and eFG% as well. But by all means, please, keep living in the past and hanging on to college production for your arguments.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

I've already stated that Noel will likely be a great defender; and it's not that 'hyperathletic 6'11" guys' aren't rare, but Len's play is more balanced, as indicated by his OWS/DWS being 1.4/1.5 (totaling 2.9 WS), vs Noel's being -1.1/2.7 (totaling 1.6 WS). I wasn't knocking Noel with my comment about rarity; I was stating a commonly held belief that athletic 7'1" guys are very rare. There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns? 3? Maybe 4? So yeah, there aren't a bunch of 6'11" guys that average almost 2 steals a game--in fact, there aren't any, so ok, 6'11" guys that average 2 steals per game are more rare than athletic 7'1" guys; does that make you feel better?

My point was that it didn't matter if the Suns drafted 3rd, or 5th, or 8th. If both players were on the board, as they were, the Suns choose Len every time, unless Oladipo was available, then, and only then, would the Suns pause, but I still believe they would choose Len. Can you say the same about Hinkie? Do you believe if Len and Noel were available, he would've selected Noel every time? We'll never know, of course.

But, to get back to the OP's original sentiment, and while Suns' and Sixers' fans are debating over Len and Noel, Jazz fans are gleefully thanking 26 other teams for their selections, as Gobert is out-blocking, out-rebounding, out-scoring, and flat out, out-producing both Len and Noel.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

[wickedwrister]

They are both quite good, both teams should be happy to have the guys they have. Neither franchise drafted Bennett so we both win.

/thread

[PhilasFinest]

yea this is a stupid thread IMO.

Both prospects are both pretty different are doing pretty well this year and have flashed some glimpses, both positive and negative in there short careers.

[Mr Sixer]

It was reported that the Suns training staff were highly suspect of Noel's knee, but were comfortable with Len's feet. Otherwise, yes, the Suns may very well have taken Noel. But all things being equal, and were both non-injured, I still believe the Suns take Len 9 times out of 10. Len has an offensive game that Noel is likely never to have. Noel has a defensive prowess that Len is likely never to attain. Regarding impact to the team--Len's defense is better than Noel's offense, so I believe it came down to that, even if Noel's defense is slightly better than Len's Offense. Len was the more balanced prospect, not to mention the more 'solid' prospect. Athletic 7'1" guys are a rare commodity--which is more rare than Noel's capabilities.

And one thing to keep in mind was that Len was projected to go higher than Noel, even #1 in many mocks, so choosing Len over Noel was a no-brainer.

Enjoy Noel--he's gonna be a great defender. But if the intent behind this thread was that Phoenix somehow made a mistake in selecting Len over Noel, I believe that sentiment is just flat out wrong--sorry. Had Philly been 5th and Phx 6th, I believe the results are the same, so I'm not saying that Len is the better player, just that for the Suns, he was the logical choice, just like Noel was the logical choice for the Sixers.

Lol. Athletic 7'1'' guys are more rare than hyper-athletic 6'11'' guys who have historically good block and steal rates?

LOL. You can keep your 'historical', I'll take the 'actual', thanks! Less minutes, more blocks, more Rebs. Oh, and yeah, and I'll take the clear advantage in TS% and eFG% as well. But by all means, please, keep living in the past and hanging on to college production for your arguments.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

I've already stated that Noel will likely be a great defender; and it's not that 'hyperathletic 6'11" guys' aren't rare, but Len's play is more balanced, as indicated by his OWS/DWS being 1.4/1.5 (totaling 2.9 WS), vs Noel's being -1.1/2.7 (totaling 1.6 WS). I wasn't knocking Noel with my comment about rarity; I was stating a commonly held belief that athletic 7'1" guys are very rare. There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns? 3? Maybe 4? So yeah, there aren't a bunch of 6'11" guys that average almost 2 steals a game--in fact, there aren't any, so ok, 6'11" guys that average 2 steals per game are more rare than athletic 7'1" guys; does that make you feel better?

My point was that it didn't matter if the Suns drafted 3rd, or 5th, or 8th. If both players were on the board, as they were, the Suns choose Len every time, unless Oladipo was available, then, and only then, would the Suns pause, but I still believe they would choose Len. Can you say the same about Hinkie? Do you believe if Len and Noel were available, he would've selected Noel every time? We'll never know, of course.

But, to get back to the OP's original sentiment, and while Suns' and Sixers' fans are debating over Len and Noel, Jazz fans are gleefully thanking 26 other teams for their selections, as Gobert is out-blocking, out-rebounding, out-scoring, and flat out, out-producing both Len and Noel.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

more blocks less minutes? 1.0 > 1.7 these days? If you wanna say that his per-36 block numbers are better, than thats fine, but I don't see why less minutes has anything to do with it. If anything, it is a smaller sample size and everyone and their mother knows that many young centers can put up big numbers, especially block numbers, when they are playing lesser minutes and you extrapolate those numbers to a per-36 or per-48 basis.

Also, the pace thing is dumb because Sixers play at the 6th fastest pace, not far off, and if anything a higher pace would increase raw block numbers, which goes against your point.

Putting all that aside, I'll take Noel any day of the week. He has the defensive prowess, awareness, and athleticism to guard wing players, stretch 4s, and once he bulks up a little more even the best of the centers (but no worry, Embiid will be in the middle too). He is already one of the best rim protectors in the league at a very young age, and I'll take his defensive upside any day of the week.

Comparing OWS for somebody so young into their career, and only halfway through their season at that, is a naïve analysis and it will be obvious in a few years that the difference between Noel and Len on defense will be much greater than the difference between Len and Noel on offense.

[Revived]

I hate to see it guys but I think Gobert is probably better than both Noel and Len

[freshie2]

Very easy to look at last night's game and focus on what they've missed (Greek freak and the Frenchman).

Noel and Len both have a long way to go...if the Suns took Noel, we may still have Jrue, and drafted Giannis.

[FreesFro]

The thing everyone seems to be forgetting is we are comparing the stats of a rookie who didn't play competitive basketball for 18 months or whatever to guys in their second years in the NBA who didn't miss significant time with a major injury.

If you don't think it's a big deal comparing second year guys to rookies then think again. Len was awful as a rookie. Gobert was a little better. Neither guy played all that much. Maybe 10mpg and those 10 minutes were not good. Compare Noel vs Len as rookies.

Now I have to hand it to both Len and Gobert they have improved significantly over their rookie years. They put in the work.

Now we'll have to wait and see how Noel improves his second season, but if you're comparing apples (rookie year) to apples (rookie year) Noel is on top. The question is can he make the dramatic improvement that both Len and Gobert made their second seasons. That's the big question and the main thing that will clear up this debate.

[NavLDO]

Lol. Athletic 7'1'' guys are more rare than hyper-athletic 6'11'' guys who have historically good block and steal rates?

LOL. You can keep your 'historical', I'll take the 'actual', thanks! Less minutes, more blocks, more Rebs. Oh, and yeah, and I'll take the clear advantage in TS% and eFG% as well. But by all means, please, keep living in the past and hanging on to college production for your arguments.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

I've already stated that Noel will likely be a great defender; and it's not that 'hyperathletic 6'11" guys' aren't rare, but Len's play is more balanced, as indicated by his OWS/DWS being 1.4/1.5 (totaling 2.9 WS), vs Noel's being -1.1/2.7 (totaling 1.6 WS). I wasn't knocking Noel with my comment about rarity; I was stating a commonly held belief that athletic 7'1" guys are very rare. There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns? 3? Maybe 4? So yeah, there aren't a bunch of 6'11" guys that average almost 2 steals a game--in fact, there aren't any, so ok, 6'11" guys that average 2 steals per game are more rare than athletic 7'1" guys; does that make you feel better?

My point was that it didn't matter if the Suns drafted 3rd, or 5th, or 8th. If both players were on the board, as they were, the Suns choose Len every time, unless Oladipo was available, then, and only then, would the Suns pause, but I still believe they would choose Len. Can you say the same about Hinkie? Do you believe if Len and Noel were available, he would've selected Noel every time? We'll never know, of course.

But, to get back to the OP's original sentiment, and while Suns' and Sixers' fans are debating over Len and Noel, Jazz fans are gleefully thanking 26 other teams for their selections, as Gobert is out-blocking, out-rebounding, out-scoring, and flat out, out-producing both Len and Noel.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

more blocks less minutes? 1.0 > 1.7 these days? -- ah, nice attempt to spin the numbers to Noel's favor. When you're trying to compare Noel's 30 MPG to Len's 15 MPG, well, then, of course he's going to have a higher BPG #, but, 96>83; 1403<1476, so yes, again, 'more blocks, less minutes'! If you wanna say that his per-36 block numbers are better, than thats fine, but I don't see why less minutes has anything to do with it. If anything, it is a smaller sample size and everyone and their mother knows that many young centers can put up big numbers, especially block numbers, when they are playing lesser minutes and you extrapolate those numbers to a per-36 or per-48 basis. -- and everyone and their mother knows you can try to spin the truth to fit your argument, like you're attempting to do.

Also, the pace thing is dumb because Sixers play at the 6th fastest pace, not far off, and if anything a higher pace would increase raw block numbers, which goes against your point. -- do you actually read before you comment on what someone else posts? At what point did I say anything about block numbers being affected by pace? I said how, and I quote: "There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns?" Where is there a statement that has anything to do with blocks?

Putting all that aside, I'll take Noel any day of the week. -- Congratulations. I'll take Len any day of the week. He has the defensive prowess, awareness, and athleticism to guard wing players, stretch 4s, and once he bulks up a little more even the best of the centers (but no worry, Embiid will be in the middle too). He is already one of the best rim protectors in the league at a very young age, and I'll take his defensive upside any day of the week.

Comparing OWS for somebody so young into their career, and only halfway through their season at that, is a naïve analysis and it will be obvious in a few years that the difference between Noel and Len on defense will be much greater than the difference between Len and Noel on offense. -- I guess we'll see then, won't we. But funny how no other Rookie Centers, or PFs for that matter, are anywhere near -1.1 OWS. But regardless, Len is an Offensive and Defensive balanced prospect, whereas Noel is not, and never has been. Nothing wrong with that, but I for one am happier with the Suns choice, and obviously they are as well, otherwise they would have chosen Noel, which they didn't, when they had the opportunity. So what is actually 'naïve analysis' is somehow believing that Noel's defense/offense will somehow improve, while Len's will remain stagnant. I guess only Noel will improve over time, huh?

And BTW, the other poster that mentioned that Len is some wise old 2nd year player and Noel is only a rookie doesn't realize that Len only played 8 MPG over 42 games last year--yeah, a whopping 360 minutes of game time last year. Woo Hoo!

[Mogul]

Len is an Offensive and Defensive balanced prospect

That's not true. He's still a negative offensive player, at this stage. He's closer to being balanced than Noel, but at least Noel is exceptional at something.

[LloydFree]

yea this is a stupid thread IMO.

Both prospects are both pretty different are doing pretty well this year and have flashed some glimpses, both positive and negative in there short careers.

Pretty much this. I don't understand what recent outcome or event prompted a thread like this, let alone the number of responses.

[CoreyGallagher]

I hate to see it guys but I think Gobert is probably better than both Noel and Len

Gobert, or Len for that matter, are not quick enough to play with Embiid. I'm not going to argue who is the better prospect, however I do know that Noel is the only amongst them that presents the possibility of at least coexisting with Embiid which is all that matters now.

[Revived]

You guys are VERY welcome.

They ought to show their gratitude by trading one of their many 1st rd picks for Plumlee

[Mr Sixer]

LOL. You can keep your 'historical', I'll take the 'actual', thanks! Less minutes, more blocks, more Rebs. Oh, and yeah, and I'll take the clear advantage in TS% and eFG% as well. But by all means, please, keep living in the past and hanging on to college production for your arguments.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

I've already stated that Noel will likely be a great defender; and it's not that 'hyperathletic 6'11" guys' aren't rare, but Len's play is more balanced, as indicated by his OWS/DWS being 1.4/1.5 (totaling 2.9 WS), vs Noel's being -1.1/2.7 (totaling 1.6 WS). I wasn't knocking Noel with my comment about rarity; I was stating a commonly held belief that athletic 7'1" guys are very rare. There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns? 3? Maybe 4? So yeah, there aren't a bunch of 6'11" guys that average almost 2 steals a game--in fact, there aren't any, so ok, 6'11" guys that average 2 steals per game are more rare than athletic 7'1" guys; does that make you feel better?

My point was that it didn't matter if the Suns drafted 3rd, or 5th, or 8th. If both players were on the board, as they were, the Suns choose Len every time, unless Oladipo was available, then, and only then, would the Suns pause, but I still believe they would choose Len. Can you say the same about Hinkie? Do you believe if Len and Noel were available, he would've selected Noel every time? We'll never know, of course.

But, to get back to the OP's original sentiment, and while Suns' and Sixers' fans are debating over Len and Noel, Jazz fans are gleefully thanking 26 other teams for their selections, as Gobert is out-blocking, out-rebounding, out-scoring, and flat out, out-producing both Len and Noel.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 4=&p5=&p6=

more blocks less minutes? 1.0 > 1.7 these days? -- ah, nice attempt to spin the numbers to Noel's favor. When you're trying to compare Noel's 30 MPG to Len's 15 MPG, well, then, of course he's going to have a higher BPG #, but, 96>83; 1403<1476, so yes, again, 'more blocks, less minutes'! If you wanna say that his per-36 block numbers are better, than thats fine, but I don't see why less minutes has anything to do with it. If anything, it is a smaller sample size and everyone and their mother knows that many young centers can put up big numbers, especially block numbers, when they are playing lesser minutes and you extrapolate those numbers to a per-36 or per-48 basis. -- and everyone and their mother knows you can try to spin the truth to fit your argument, like you're attempting to do.

Also, the pace thing is dumb because Sixers play at the 6th fastest pace, not far off, and if anything a higher pace would increase raw block numbers, which goes against your point. -- do you actually read before you comment on what someone else posts? At what point did I say anything about block numbers being affected by pace? I said how, and I quote: "There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns?" Where is there a statement that has anything to do with blocks?

Putting all that aside, I'll take Noel any day of the week. -- Congratulations. I'll take Len any day of the week. He has the defensive prowess, awareness, and athleticism to guard wing players, stretch 4s, and once he bulks up a little more even the best of the centers (but no worry, Embiid will be in the middle too). He is already one of the best rim protectors in the league at a very young age, and I'll take his defensive upside any day of the week.

Comparing OWS for somebody so young into their career, and only halfway through their season at that, is a naïve analysis and it will be obvious in a few years that the difference between Noel and Len on defense will be much greater than the difference between Len and Noel on offense. -- I guess we'll see then, won't we. But funny how no other Rookie Centers, or PFs for that matter, are anywhere near -1.1 OWS. But regardless, Len is an Offensive and Defensive balanced prospect, whereas Noel is not, and never has been. Nothing wrong with that, but I for one am happier with the Suns choice, and obviously they are as well, otherwise they would have chosen Noel, which they didn't, when they had the opportunity. So what is actually 'naïve analysis' is somehow believing that Noel's defense/offense will somehow improve, while Len's will remain stagnant. I guess only Noel will improve over time, huh?

And BTW, the other poster that mentioned that Len is some wise old 2nd year player and Noel is only a rookie doesn't realize that Len only played 8 MPG over 42 games last year--yeah, a whopping 360 minutes of game time last year. Woo Hoo!

Okay buddy, keep comparing total raw block numbers across a season and a half to a rookie halfway through his first season in the NBA. And I'm the one spinning the stats to fit my argument

[NavLDO]

more blocks less minutes? 1.0 > 1.7 these days? -- ah, nice attempt to spin the numbers to Noel's favor. When you're trying to compare Noel's 30 MPG to Len's 15 MPG, well, then, of course he's going to have a higher BPG #, but, 96>83; 1403<1476, so yes, again, 'more blocks, less minutes'! If you wanna say that his per-36 block numbers are better, than thats fine, but I don't see why less minutes has anything to do with it. If anything, it is a smaller sample size and everyone and their mother knows that many young centers can put up big numbers, especially block numbers, when they are playing lesser minutes and you extrapolate those numbers to a per-36 or per-48 basis. -- and everyone and their mother knows you can try to spin the truth to fit your argument, like you're attempting to do.

Also, the pace thing is dumb because Sixers play at the 6th fastest pace, not far off, and if anything a higher pace would increase raw block numbers, which goes against your point. -- do you actually read before you comment on what someone else posts? At what point did I say anything about block numbers being affected by pace? I said how, and I quote: "There are what, 12-15 guys in the NBA that are even 7'1" or taller? How many of them could play effectively in a fast paced offense like the Suns?" Where is there a statement that has anything to do with blocks?

Putting all that aside, I'll take Noel any day of the week. -- Congratulations. I'll take Len any day of the week. He has the defensive prowess, awareness, and athleticism to guard wing players, stretch 4s, and once he bulks up a little more even the best of the centers (but no worry, Embiid will be in the middle too). He is already one of the best rim protectors in the league at a very young age, and I'll take his defensive upside any day of the week.

Comparing OWS for somebody so young into their career, and only halfway through their season at that, is a naïve analysis and it will be obvious in a few years that the difference between Noel and Len on defense will be much greater than the difference between Len and Noel on offense. -- I guess we'll see then, won't we. But funny how no other Rookie Centers, or PFs for that matter, are anywhere near -1.1 OWS. But regardless, Len is an Offensive and Defensive balanced prospect, whereas Noel is not, and never has been. Nothing wrong with that, but I for one am happier with the Suns choice, and obviously they are as well, otherwise they would have chosen Noel, which they didn't, when they had the opportunity. So what is actually 'naïve analysis' is somehow believing that Noel's defense/offense will somehow improve, while Len's will remain stagnant. I guess only Noel will improve over time, huh?

And BTW, the other poster that mentioned that Len is some wise old 2nd year player and Noel is only a rookie doesn't realize that Len only played 8 MPG over 42 games last year--yeah, a whopping 360 minutes of game time last year. Woo Hoo!

Okay buddy, keep comparing total raw block numbers across a season and a half to a rookie halfway through his first season in the NBA. And I'm the one spinning the stats to fit my argument

How much of the fact that Len played 42 games last season, at roughly 8 min a game, are you not understanding? He didn't play a season and a half. You're spinning the numbers as we speak, even! And how am I spinning anything? I was very clear 'less minutes, more blocks'. So tell me, how is that spinning anything? And how is the fact that you are throwing false statements, and throwing different stats out to meet your agenda, NOT spinning. They've both played roughly 1400 minutes at the time of this debate. Of which, Len has played in 93 games--not a season and a half-- and started 29 of those games. Noel has played in 49 games, of which he started 45, and has surpassed Len in total minutes. Now, you tell me, which one of the two has more relevant game experience. Quit acting like Len has somehow a plethora of NBA experience over Noel, and somehow Noel is going to breakout into this superstar when he develops, and that Len is some wily old vet who knows the way of the NBA. Your argument just sounds ridiculous. Poor, 'wittle' rookie Noel, being compared to the sage and experienced NBA veteran that is Alex Len...

[PhilasFinest]

I still can't believe theres arguing going on on this topic.

Both are quality young big men prospects that excel in different things....really don't see either tipping the scale in there respected teams direction.

[Ericb5]

Neither of them has accomplished anything important yet, and they are both likely to be a lot better than they are now in two years.

We will know a lot more then.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[BriggaMan]

Once again, we need to thank the Phoenix Suns!!!!!