Trade Targets (postcript on yesterday-other teams)

[EastSideBucksFan]

I might be tapping my brakes on dealing with Kanter & his Dad agent.

Haven't read this stuff before.

http://purpleandblues.com/2015/02/13/en ... gul-story/

[Cooleyo47]

Save for Richard Hamilton's high usage, he and Middleton compare favorably at the same stage in their careers.

So yeah, if you believe Giannis and Parker are multiple time All-Stars, then Middleton can grow into an important complimentary piece on a championship team with potential to make an All-Star game or two...

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/hfsDX

[SupremeHustle]

I respect the guys who don't think Exum is going to be special. He surely hasn't shown anything ever to make me think otherwise. Even his high school highlights were meh to me. If he puts it all together, he has the tools to be Brandon Roy-ultra light. If not, Jerryl Sasser. Who? Exactly.

[Kerb Hohl]

My point is that we are done drafting in the lottery. While I'm all for drafting raw players and trading for some, we are now beyond the 2012 days where we were literally hoping our entire roster would have a nuclear bomb placed into it and we'd take on every young player we can get.

Who is talking about tanking or drafting in the lottery? Where is this part of your post coming from?

Well, we need to talk about how realistic it is to trade for Exum, because you were talking about people's inability to want to be a "full rebuild" fanbase as we were for every year in the past decade other than FTD.

To get Exum, the Jazz won't give him away. We'd have to probably overpay for his potential (and he is looking very boom/bust right now). Along with your comments on us being in "FTD mode" again, that also is a high propensity to build through the draft to get a star, which occurs in the top 5 unless you unearth a Giannis.

I'm saying that the tone has changed here because we've moved beyond the stage of a nuclear rebuild and draft our studs in the top 5. We've got Giannis, Parker, and some complementary pieces. That team has a high ceiling but probably not that of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. However, we need to take our moderately competitive team and hope we can make a Jeff Teague/Bledsoe shrewd signing before they blow up or a Randolph (when he was overpaid and underdeveloped) move to take them to the next level. We aren't going to do it by an overhaul or obvious addition to the core by risk of paying the price that Exum will cost (or trying to find our way to draft really high), unless the Jazz have found serious red flags.

[Newz]

I'm saying the impact is different because of the ages of the players. The FTD team had a ceiling to it, while if this team wins 46, the same amount as the FTD team, it's a different vibe because a majority of the roster is on its upward trajectory. That was not the case with FTD, especially factoring in the Bogut injury, and then how we spent our FA money.

Either way, you are either in or out at this point. Our core is pretty much locked in in terms of drafted players. There may be trades for other youth, but in those cases, something has to be removed from our side as well. Exum type trades are pipedreams though, it would be like us saying, "screw it, lets trade Jabari".

From here we need to make sure we use our cap wisely, continue to draft talent above it's draft slot like we have, and keep our eye out for trades. I have completely ruled out drafting another all-star ceiling guy, and I've essentially ruled out trading for a young one as well.

... So then why did you start responding in the first place to this? No one said this team is like the FTD team. They are comparing the impact that it had to fan outlook on the team and how it put them into a 'win now' mindset as opposed to wanting to rebuild.

I also have no clue why you guys are bringing up drafting in the lottery or acquiring star guys early in the draft. Who the hell was even talking about that in this thread?

Someone said they wouldn't trade Middleton for Exum. I said I would, other people agree... some other people disagree.

Holy crap.

[ZeppelinPage]

Keep Middleton. Don't trade a good piece like him for an unproven Exum. **** that.

[SupremeHustle]

Looking to see if there is any new news.........nope.

Plenty of Newz, though. Too much imo.

[Siefer]

I remember a time when this board was all about rebuilding by getting super high upside young guys who have star potential. Now they are all about guys like Khris Middleton and dislike most young players that haven't already turned into studs.

Not that I dislike Khris Middleton. I think he's going to be a great role player unless he stops playing hard after he gets his deal or something... but Exum has the ability to be something special.

And yeah, I realize that he isn't dominating the NBA as a 19 year old.

You're misunderstanding my post. I'm all for prioritizing star potential. I'm just super high on Middleton, and super down on Exum.

Do you think Middleton has a chance to be a legitimate star player?

I personally do not. I like him, I just don't ever see him being a top 3 player on a team that wins a championship. I also hope we keep him and I'd be willing to pay quite a bit to make him stick around, so I hope people don't think I'm ripping on the guy.

I remember you and I were pretty close on our evaluation of Jabari pre-draft. We felt like while Jabari's best case scenario probably wasn't the absolute highest in the class, it was very close, and significantly more probable. That's where I am regarding Middleton vs. Exum. I think Middleton's best case is pretty damn high (bordering on star level impact), and while Exum's might be higher still, the probability that he achieves it is too low to justify giving up all of the expected value Middleton has.

[Newz]

My point is that we are done drafting in the lottery. While I'm all for drafting raw players and trading for some, we are now beyond the 2012 days where we were literally hoping our entire roster would have a nuclear bomb placed into it and we'd take on every young player we can get.

Who is talking about tanking or drafting in the lottery? Where is this part of your post coming from?

Well, we need to talk about how realistic it is to trade for Exum, because you were talking about people's inability to want to be a "full rebuild" fanbase as we were for every year in the past decade other than FTD.

To get Exum, the Jazz won't give him away. We'd have to probably overpay for his potential (and he is looking very boom/bust right now). Along with your comments on us being in "FTD mode" again, that also is a high propensity to build through the draft to get a star, which occurs in the top 5 unless you unearth a Giannis.

I'm saying that the tone has changed here because we've moved beyond the stage of a nuclear rebuild and draft our studs in the top 5. We've got Giannis, Parker, and some complementary pieces. That team has a high ceiling but probably not that of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. However, we need to take our moderately competitive team and hope we can make a Jeff Teague/Bledsoe shrewd signing before they blow up or a Randolph (when he was overpaid and underdeveloped) move to take them to the next level. We aren't going to do it by an overhaul or obvious addition to the core by risk of paying the price that Exum will cost (or trying to find our way to draft really high), unless the Jazz have found serious red flags.

For the love of God...

I never said we could actually trade for Exum. I have said multiple times in this thread the Jazz wouldn't trade him. I saw other people on the forum wouldn't deal Middleton for him and I said I think it would be crazy not to.

Is it really that difficult for you guys to understand?

[skones]

What is everyone's revised opinion of Exum anyway? Obviously still incredibly young, but a nightmare first season, no? Giannis showed us some flashes and was never really scared.

It's a nightmare first season. With Giannis you saw flashes, because he was consistently a much better player than Exum has been all season long. Exum can't shoot, he can't get to the rim, he lacks explosion around the hoop to get easy looks inside, his handle is underdeveloped for a point guard, so his speed isn't nearly as large of as asset as was once assumed by myself and others on this board, lacks elite vision, not particularly wreaking havoc in the passing lanes. I just think a lot has to break right for him to become a star.

[Newz]

Looking to see if there is any new news.........nope.

Plenty of Newz, though. Too much imo.

You love my posts.

[LUKE23]

... So then why did you start responding in the first place to this? No one said this team is like the FTD team. They are comparing the impact that it had to fan outlook on the team and how it put them into a 'win now' mindset as opposed to wanting to rebuild.

I also have no clue why you guys are bringing up drafting in the lottery or acquiring star guys early in the draft. Who the hell was even talking about that in this thread?

Someone said they wouldn't trade Middleton for Exum. I said I would, other people agree... some other people disagree.

Holy crap.

And I'm saying the outlook is not the same as FTD, for reasons stated. It's a more optimistic outlook and there are obvious reasons for that. People are also not advocating win now with Salmons type additions, or players of Salmons level age. Well, most aren't.

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm saying the impact is different because of the ages of the players. The FTD team had a ceiling to it, while if this team wins 46, the same amount as the FTD team, it's a different vibe because a majority of the roster is on its upward trajectory. That was not the case with FTD, especially factoring in the Bogut injury, and then how we spent our FA money.

Either way, you are either in or out at this point. Our core is pretty much locked in in terms of drafted players. There may be trades for other youth, but in those cases, something has to be removed from our side as well. Exum type trades are pipedreams though, it would be like us saying, "screw it, lets trade Jabari".

From here we need to make sure we use our cap wisely, continue to draft talent above it's draft slot like we have, and keep our eye out for trades. I have completely ruled out drafting another all-star ceiling guy, and I've essentially ruled out trading for a young one as well.

... So then why did you start responding in the first place to this? No one said this team is like the FTD team. They are comparing the impact that it had to fan outlook on the team and how it put them into a 'win now' mindset as opposed to wanting to rebuild.

I also have no clue why you guys are bringing up drafting in the lottery or acquiring star guys early in the draft. Who the hell was even talking about that in this thread?

Someone said they wouldn't trade Middleton for Exum. I said I would, other people agree... some other people disagree.

Holy crap.

Well, you asked about the change in mindset. In any other year in the past decade, I'd trade a "role player" I had for a boom or bust prospect. Middleton is obviously argued to be much more than a role player, and also a guy that I can align with still being in his prime when the team is a contender (in 2-3 years). We've moved beyond that stage. If the trade rumored was those two, I'd think long and hard about making it, but my outlook is much different than 2 years ago where I would have said "yes" before you finished the sentence.

At this point in time, you're now forced to think about a mid/late 20s Middleton as a Jimmy Butler-type to support your core against a guy that could grow into your 3rd star or could be a 12th man in 3-4 years.

[King Ken]

They are not trading Exum unless MIL trades Parker. With that said, I think a deal based around MIL 1st is the starters price for him.

[DanoMac]

Newz vs. LUKE23 honestly rivals Rock vs. HHH

[Newz]

Well, you asked about the change in mindset. In any other year in the past decade, I'd trade a "role player" I had for a boom or bust prospect. Middleton is obviously argued to be much more than a role player, and also a guy that I can align with still being in his prime when the team is a contender (in 2-3 years). We've moved beyond that stage. If the trade rumored was those two, I'd think long and hard about making it, but my outlook is much different than 2 years ago where I would have said "yes" before you finished the sentence.

At this point in time, you're now forced to think about a mid/late 20s Middleton as a Jimmy Butler-type to support your core against a guy that could grow into your 3rd star or could be a 12th man in 3-4 years.

So would you trade Middleton for Exum or not?

You agree we don't have a chance to draft in the top 5 again... so would you trade Middleton for a 19 year old who was just drafted in the top 5 and had a huge upside coming in or would you keep him and hope Middleton becomes a legit star, you can land another star in the middle of the draft and/or you can sign/trade for a star level player?

With our roster I would still take the chance on Exum. Some people wouldn't.

I understand the dynamics of the trade, they aren't that difficult to figure out. But thank you for explaining them to me.

[BobbyLight]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/568138966152519681[/tweet]

So this guy basically retweets what he reads here. Nice.

[Kerb Hohl]

Who is talking about tanking or drafting in the lottery? Where is this part of your post coming from?

Well, we need to talk about how realistic it is to trade for Exum, because you were talking about people's inability to want to be a "full rebuild" fanbase as we were for every year in the past decade other than FTD.

To get Exum, the Jazz won't give him away. We'd have to probably overpay for his potential (and he is looking very boom/bust right now). Along with your comments on us being in "FTD mode" again, that also is a high propensity to build through the draft to get a star, which occurs in the top 5 unless you unearth a Giannis.

I'm saying that the tone has changed here because we've moved beyond the stage of a nuclear rebuild and draft our studs in the top 5. We've got Giannis, Parker, and some complementary pieces. That team has a high ceiling but probably not that of Durant/Westbrook/Harden. However, we need to take our moderately competitive team and hope we can make a Jeff Teague/Bledsoe shrewd signing before they blow up or a Randolph (when he was overpaid and underdeveloped) move to take them to the next level. We aren't going to do it by an overhaul or obvious addition to the core by risk of paying the price that Exum will cost (or trying to find our way to draft really high), unless the Jazz have found serious red flags.

For the love of God...

I never said we could actually trade for Exum. I have said multiple times in this thread the Jazz wouldn't trade him. I saw other people on the forum wouldn't deal Middleton for him and I said I think it would be crazy not to.

Is it really that difficult for you guys to understand?

But then you went to mock people for going into too much "win now" mode when it could now be fairly argued that they want to "win in 2-3 years" and have more certainty of it. I agree that if a proposed Middleton/Exum trade existed, Exum has a higher ceiling, but Middleton could be a valuable piece.

[LUKE23]

I can't fathom us turning down an expiring for Ilyasova if offered.

[emunney]

Not sure if this was addressed between pages 178 & 280 (I was forced to skip ahead) but losing his Bird Rights wouldn't be hugely significant for a team like us that will be expected to be operating with significant cap space. If his bird rights would be attached, our cap space would be even further reduced prior to signing him due to a larger cap hit.

We would not have the advantage of being able to offer an additional year and a higher annual raise, compared to other teams, but that would also be the case if we didn't trade for him and pursued him as an unrestricted free agent.

It is his UFA status that is the biggest deterrent for me as far as being comfortable giving up significant value in a trade to acquire him

How much cap space did you anticipate us having prior to the Sanders buy out?

Ah, gotcha. Looks like I glossed over when you made that post while I was trying to catch up on things today.

Certainly lack of full bird rights to Monroe without the Bucks clearing salary cap space (which they've since virtually achieved with the Sanders buyout) would have been very significant, as was your implication.

Sorry about not taking into account when that post was made

No need to apologize. Mine was an earnest question. Just thought you knew something I didn't, as you often do. Your comments on what the Monroe situation would look like now with the new reality are useful.