Shocked We Haven't Done Anything to the Bullpen

[Waylon Mercy]

Russell Martin an MVP caliber player? and we didn't over spend for him?

He had WAR's of 5.3 and 4.1 the last two seasons, and that doesn't include pitch framing where he's averaged ~2 wins per season over the last three years. Last season in particular he was ranked 21st in all of baseball in WAR (again not including framing), which put him at the same level as Jose Abreu, and a shade behind Miguel Cabrera. Is he an MVP candidate? Unless he repeats his 2014 season again, probably not, but he is an elite player at his position.

He's not going to hit like he did in 2014 again in all likelyhood. Let's get that out of the way as I'm sure people like you will be harping on it all season. His offense will go down in 2015-beyond, but he's enough of a game changer on defense, combined with a good enough bat, to hold a very high amount of value on the field. In free agency, you overpay in years and dollars to get the short-term reward. Very rarely will you find free agent deals that are team friendly towards the back end of it. That's why developing talent is so vital. It would have been nice if AA had the foresight to use Gomes at catcher, which would have saved the Jays from having to acquire Martin, but you can't turn back time. Martin is a very good player, and should make a huge difference in the team's overall performance if he stays healthy.

I like Martin...

Take contract and age out of the equation and talking about right now and the 2015 season and everything you
are saying is bang on I completely agree.

But we have people throwing the letters M-V-P around its just silly

[Waylon Mercy]

Russell Martin an MVP caliber player? and we didn't over spend for him?

I'm starting to wonder if there is a special hot dog vendor outside of Skydome that sells magic hot dogs
that makes people high on optimism that I'm not aware of.

I don't live in Toronto but yes he is an MVP calibre player still and has been the last 2 seasons.

I'm guessing you're from Ottawa with that Senators logo on your profile don't tell me they're more delusional than
Toronto fans?...Martin will be in the MVP discussion when you learn how to spell "calibre" right.

[BigLeagueChew]

I'm guessing you're from Ottawa with that Senators logo on your profile don't tell me they're more delusional than
Toronto fans?...Martin will be in the MVP discussion when you learn how to spell "calibre" right.

Ok troll, I can scroll up to where you called Norris..Morris. Or you can realize the word has different spellings depending on language of origin you ****.

Martin finished 13th in NL MVP votes last year sir and projects to be 4th best catcher in the entire MLB this year. All I'm saying.Bautista is certaintly top 5 RF. Donaldson top 5 3rd baseman, Encarnacion can be top 5. You get me or are you going to keep being a major Blue Jays buzzkill?

[Lateral Quicks]

What has AA done that would make him a valuable commodity for other teams to make thier GM? What does he hang his hat on?

For starters:

- getting a decent return for Halladay under trying circumstances (d'Arnaud + Travis + Drabek)
- fleecing the Angels on Vernon Wells
- building up a weak farm system post-Ricciardi, and keeping it built up
- having a crop of high upside starting pitchers in the minors as far as the eye can see
- signing two of the best sluggers in the game to far below market AAVs
- adding an MVP-calibre player with 4 years of control without destroying the payroll or farm system
- signing one of the best defensive catchers in the game - and one of this year's best free agents - to work with our young pitching staff

I'm by no means an AA apologist though (before his moves this off-season I was ready to run him out of town). That Dickey deal was monumentally stupid at the time it was made, and remains stupid now. d'Arnaud put up a .787 OPS in the second half of last year, and Steamer is projecting 2.9 WAR out of him this year. We had to put up with Dickey/Thole/Navarro/Kratz/others because of this move. It's going to be painful watching d'Arnaud make all-star games in future years. If Syndergaard ever fronts a rotation, this trade will probably go down as one of the worst in baseball history.

The Marlins trade was solid. AA swung and missed, but you can't really fault him for how it turned out. He couldn't have known Josh Johnson would turn useless (as he should have known re: Dickey) and Reyes would get injured. Losing the prospects hurt, no doubt.

His strength is clearly in stocking a farm system, and we're starting to see the fruits of his efforts there. That skill has a lot of value around the league. We have extra incentive to make the playoffs this year, because as others have said I have little confidence Rogers would bring in a skilled baseball guy to rebuild the team.

And exactly how many playoff appearances has that led to in 5 years? We haven't even come close. Teams look at the bottom line and we haven't accomplished much with a higher than average payroll especially when there are GM's out there who have done more with less money available. The Marlins trade was not good, you can't be an apologist and say that we didn't know Johnson would be a stiff and Reyes is a black hole at SS (getting injured shouldn;t have been a suprise considering his injury history and that he was on the shelf a good amount of time his last year in Miami). You knew what you were getting with Reyes and that Buehrle was a grossly overpaid .500 pitcher. It was blind fan euphoria that thought these 2 were something more and were even worth half of what it was eating in our budget.

Jose Reyes had 603, 586, and 716 (a league high) plate appearances in the three years preceding the trade. He was one year removed from finishing 11th in the MVP voting. Buerhle put up over 10 WAR in the three years preceding the trade.

No one is disputing they're overpaid, but you can't dispute the fact they were very good players when the Jays acquired them.

As for not winning, first of all Ricciardi didn't exactly leave AA in a good place. The first 2-3 years making the playoffs was very unrealistic. The 4th year, pretty much all of major league baseball thought the Jays were favourites to make the world series. Unfortunately JJ turned into a lemon, Reyes got injured, and Bonifacio forgot how to play baseball. You can blame AA for that, but surely bad luck also deserves some of the blame.

I agree he deserved to be fired after this past season, but given what he's done to reload for this upcoming year he's earned another shot.

[Schad]

Was it really though? The guy hit in the minors and in 111 PAs with us he at least showed some pop. Of course it was hard to predict him becoming one of the better Cs in baseball but could you have predicted he'd be useful at some point? I think so.

And it was just so needless. We included him with Aviles for Esmil Rogers. Why? Just so pointless. Meanwhile, you have JPA behind the plate spinning like a windmill offensively and defensively, you'd think you might wanna hang on to someone like Gomes just in case.

It was just a huge swing and a miss on AA's part. He must have thought Gomes literally had no talent.

Opinions were mixed, to say the least, concerning his ability to remain behind the plate long-term from the time he was drafted on, and he'd been a decent-but-not-great hitter prior to 2012, where he exploded in AAA...but in Las Vegas, a venue known for crazy numbers. Came up and showed a bit of power with us, but also struck out 29% of the time, and from what I remember didn't look terribly comfortable blocking pitches and the like. He looked, basically, like a somewhat-better version of Arencibia.

AA et al definitely missed, but at an earlier stage than the trade. The fact that he was catching only sporadically, partially because of the depth we had at catcher (he was playing on the same team as d'Arnaud each year from 2010 - 2012, so there were only so many games to go around) may well have resulted in him looking worse behind the plate for lack of reps, which reinforced the belief that he'd be a 1B in the future.

[s e n s i]

Russell Martin an MVP caliber player? and we didn't over spend for him?

I'm starting to wonder if there is a special hot dog vendor outside of Skydome that sells magic hot dogs
that makes people high on optimism that I'm not aware of.

I don't live in Toronto but yes he is an MVP calibre player still and has been the last 2 seasons.

I'm guessing you're from Ottawa with that Senators logo on your profile don't tell me they're more delusional than
Toronto fans?...Martin will be in the MVP discussion when you learn how to spell "calibre" right.

First of all, I don't think you're in any position to call anyone delusional after claiming AA hasn't drafted "anyone worth a grain of salt" (despite admitting Stroman is a #2/3 starter and conveniently ignoring the several prospects parlayed into actual MLB regulars) and subsequently rattling off a list players drafted by JP RICCIARDI in your sloppy anti-AA rant.

Secondly, that is how you spell calibre, if you're Canadian or live in Canada. Like centre. Or metre. Or dozens of other words that are spelled differently in Canada than they are in America.

[Schad]

Oh man I missed that particular zinger on my first pass through the thread.

[Waylon Mercy]

I don't live in Toronto but yes he is an MVP calibre player still and has been the last 2 seasons.

I'm guessing you're from Ottawa with that Senators logo on your profile don't tell me they're more delusional than
Toronto fans?...Martin will be in the MVP discussion when you learn how to spell "calibre" right.

First of all, I don't think you're in any position to call anyone delusional after claiming AA hasn't drafted "anyone worth a grain of salt" (despite admitting Stroman is a #2/3 starter and conveniently ignoring the several prospects parlayed into actual MLB regulars) and subsequently rattling off a list players drafted by JP RICCIARDI in your sloppy anti-AA rant.

Secondly, that is how you spell calibre, if you're Canadian or live in Canada. Like centre. Or metre. Or dozens of other words that are spelled differently in Canada than they are in America.

Speaking of delusional weren't you the same guy claiming Mike Santorelli was a good player the other day?

Since you are one of the captain Kool-Aid drinkers historically on the Jays and Leafs discussions I'm not surprised
and already know you're gonna take the opposite stance.

Did I mention in that post that all of those failed prospects are all AA draft picks?

No the conversation took a turn in a different direction and we started talking about how people over
rate prospects on this board.

It's groundhog day here year after year after year...

You guys like sheep and good Rogers customers buy into this false hope that's presented to you year after year
after year. You actually have the nerve to insult and question anybody who criticizes the management or
any role player or scrub you blindly fall in love with.

Am I the bad guy?

Am I being a buzz kill or a "troll" because I haven't been a sucker and see what everybody else outside of this market sees?

Most of you guys are cantankerous individuals that want to debate if the sun comes up in the morning...

I'm so sorry that I'm so out of my mind that I'm sick of a team with the longest playoff drought in sports and
I haven't seen anything from a GM that hasn't done anything here in several years to extend him.

Go back to drinking your blue kool-aid and living in Fantasy land with unicorns and clowns with balloons and
snap at anyone who lives in reality about the Jays and Leafs.

The reality of the situation is AA is on the endangered species list and people in reality know that's fair.

Some of you guys on here have major balls some of you have been consistently wrong on almost everything Jays
related. I remember what posters snapped at anyone who didn't like Snider, Morrow etc. Yet you guys talk the
most smack and insult and attack anyone who thinks different instead of owning up to your mistakes.

Do me a favor and dig up this thread if/when AA turns this team around or gets an extension because I'll gladly
eat crow and not go in hiding or hope people forget about it and talk smack if I'm wrong.

[satyr9]

Satyr you are the stereotypical Toronto fan that's been along part of the problem...

Why are you getting mad at me? I can tell by your snarky posts questioning AA is bothering you and that
to me is absurd. It's like someone being a jerk to someone for advocating firing Colangelo in year 5.

I'm sure you're one of the posters that was captain of the Brandon Morrow and Travis Snider fan clubs around
here that sulked when anyone suggested they sucked and never admitted it or apologized after.

Instead of posting corny Youtube videos and attacking the poster instead of the post why don't you bring something
to the debate instead of trolling?

I can only imagine how terrifying it must've been, all that unbearable snark. It must be so hard and require so much indomitable will and fortitude, being such a lonesome truth teller like you instead of one of the sheeple like me. I'm just not strong enough to join you. I only hope you can forgive me someday.

[Waylon Mercy]

Satyr you are the stereotypical Toronto fan that's been along part of the problem...

Why are you getting mad at me? I can tell by your snarky posts questioning AA is bothering you and that
to me is absurd. It's like someone being a jerk to someone for advocating firing Colangelo in year 5.

I'm sure you're one of the posters that was captain of the Brandon Morrow and Travis Snider fan clubs around
here that sulked when anyone suggested they sucked and never admitted it or apologized after.

Instead of posting corny Youtube videos and attacking the poster instead of the post why don't you bring something
to the debate instead of trolling?

I can only imagine how terrifying it must've been, all that unbearable snark. It must be so hard and require so much indomitable will and fortitude, being such a lonesome truth teller like you instead of one of the sheeple like me. I'm just not strong enough to join you. I only hope you can forgive me someday.

You have nothing don't you? What is this your 3rd post in a row of drivel?

Can you bring anything to this debate or formulate reasons why AA should be kept with a new President?

Or you gonna continue to derail this discussion with bad comedy directed at me because you don't like
that I don't think like you awwwwe

[s e n s i]

Speaking of delusional weren't you the same guy claiming Mike Santorelli was a good player the other day?

he is a good player. which is why a STANLEY CUP CALIBRE TEAM traded for him (in exchange for either a decent prospect or a 1st round pick, whichever way you want to look at it), presumably to shore up their lines and make a push for a title. in what world does the best team in a league trade for a bad player prior to a trade deadline? in this fantasy world i live in with unicorns and clowns and balloons apparently!

[Santoki]

Ah, the annual Waylon vs the Board debates. That means we're getting close, guys!

[Waylon Mercy]

Speaking of delusional weren't you the same guy claiming Mike Santorelli was a good player the other day?

he is a good player. which is why a STANLEY CUP CALIBRE TEAM traded for him (in exchange for either a decent prospect or a 1st round pick, whichever way you want to look at it), presumably to shore up their lines and make a push for a title. in what world does the best team in a league trade for a bad player prior to a trade deadline? in this fantasy world i live in with unicorns and clowns and balloons apparently!

Ah yes a 29 year old journeymen who's been on 5 teams in 7 years who can't hack it on the Leafs. Apparently
these types of rare players are such a hot commodity in the NHL. The fact that Nashville had a major injury
to their D-Core and needed Franson has nothing to do with it? or that Nashville had him as a rookie and might over
value him or feel comfortable with him has nothing to do with it? Nobody in the media or NHL critics were saying
wow what a great trade by Nashville it was wow can't believe the Leafs actually got a 1st rounder for those guys.

Just out of curiosity do you wear an Andrea Bargnani jersey when you make these claims?

Ah, the annual Waylon vs the Board debates. That means we're getting close, guys!

lol yup it's not the same without Randal McMurphy even he wasn't this defensive about anybody who was critical
of Colby Rasmus or John Gibbons.

[s e n s i]

Nobody in the media or NHL critics were saying
wow what a great trade by Nashville it was wow can't believe the Leafs actually got a 1st rounder for those guys.

because they are both UFA this offseason and everyone except you knows the leafs can't afford to re-sign either player (due to other horrible contracts languishing in the press box or on the ice). give it up, santorelli isn't a "scrub", just like how marcus stroman isn't worth less than "a grain of salt"

Just out of curiosity do you wear an Andrea Bargnani jersey when you make these claims?

yes

[Waylon Mercy]

Nobody in the media or NHL critics were saying
wow what a great trade by Nashville it was wow can't believe the Leafs actually got a 1st rounder for those guys.

because they are both UFA this offseason and everyone except you knows the leafs can't afford to re-sign either player (due to other horrible contracts languishing in the press box or on the ice). give it up, santorelli isn't a "scrub", just like how marcus stroman isn't worth less than "a grain of salt"

Just out of curiosity do you wear an Andrea Bargnani jersey when you make these claims?

yes

So now we are going backwards and you're putting words in my mouth...I never said Stroman wasn't worth a grain of
salt at all. I'm actually optimistic about him but the point was don't count your chickens before they hatch we can't
jump to conclusions over half a season. Time will tell if Stroman was a great pick or bad pick.

Aren't you the same guy who used to bash Cito and claim he was overrated? I know it was you because Cito was
actually successful

[s e n s i]

Nobody in the media or NHL critics were saying
wow what a great trade by Nashville it was wow can't believe the Leafs actually got a 1st rounder for those guys.

because they are both UFA this offseason and everyone except you knows the leafs can't afford to re-sign either player (due to other horrible contracts languishing in the press box or on the ice). give it up, santorelli isn't a "scrub", just like how marcus stroman isn't worth less than "a grain of salt"

Just out of curiosity do you wear an Andrea Bargnani jersey when you make these claims?

yes

So now we are going backwards and you're putting words in my mouth...I never said Stroman wasn't worth a grain of
salt at all. I'm actually optimistic about him but the point was don't count your chickens before they hatch we can't
jump to conclusions over half a season. Time will tell if Stroman was a great pick or bad pick.

Aren't you the same guy who used to bash Cito and claim he was overrated? I know it was you because Cito was
actually successful

re: alex anthopoulos (two pages ago)

He hasn't drafted anybody worth a grain of salt.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1372854&start=20#p42706782

and were going backwards now because twice in as many "rebuttals", you bring up completely unrelated topics. like mike santorelli, who's name has no business being in this thread, and my previous (un)educated opinion on cito gaston which i'm not sure has anything to do with this thread either?

please go if you're sick of the sheep. maybe learn to spell "calibre" too and next time you won't make a fool of yourself trying to correct someone else. incredible

[Waylon Mercy]

because they are both UFA this offseason and everyone except you knows the leafs can't afford to re-sign either player (due to other horrible contracts languishing in the press box or on the ice). give it up, santorelli isn't a "scrub", just like how marcus stroman isn't worth less than "a grain of salt"



yes

So now we are going backwards and you're putting words in my mouth...I never said Stroman wasn't worth a grain of
salt at all. I'm actually optimistic about him but the point was don't count your chickens before they hatch we can't
jump to conclusions over half a season. Time will tell if Stroman was a great pick or bad pick.

Aren't you the same guy who used to bash Cito and claim he was overrated? I know it was you because Cito was
actually successful

re: alex anthopoulos (two pages ago)

He hasn't drafted anybody worth a grain of salt.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1372854&start=20#p42706782

and were going backwards now because twice in as many "rebuttals", you bring up completely unrelated topics. like mike santorelli, who's name has no business being in this thread, and my previous (un)educated opinion on cito gaston which i'm not sure has anything to do with this thread either?


please go if you're sick of the sheep. maybe learn to spell "calibre" too and next time you won't make a fool of yourself trying to correct someone else. incredible

The whole point of bringing up Gaston and Santorelli is because you want to go around pointing fingers at me
when you've said some foolish outlandish things to me over the years. Why don't you have a taste of
your own medicine?

I'm not surprised the guy who needs the Stroman comment explained to him 5 times doesn't understand the
sarcastic joke of calibre in relation to an Martin MVP comment.

[satyr9]

You have nothing don't you? What is this your 3rd post in a row of drivel?

Can you bring anything to this debate or formulate reasons why AA should be kept with a new President?

Or you gonna continue to derail this discussion with bad comedy directed at me because you don't like
that I don't think like you awwwwe

I'm sorry Waylon, you would like me to bring something serious to this debate? Will that help you finish?

Whether you like it or not, you agree with me, which is why I'm just being lame. You're too fragile to admit it, hence the back up against the wall everyone's out to get me attitude.

I think it's pretty funny, but if you want me to engage your rhetorical stylings in the manner to which you've become accustomed, I'm gonna need some extra motivation, 'cause if I'm gonna help you jerk off, I'm gonna get paid for it at least. You throw some bitcoin in the mix and I'll reconsider. Until then, I'm sorry honey, but I have a headache.

[Schad]

And on that note...