Thibs just doesn't get it

[unknownnewbie]

19.8 points per 36
.567 TS%
.442 3P%

Yeah, Aaron Brooks is not that good on offense. Look at the splits I posted. Brooks has been consistent all season.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Hinrich has been pretty bad, and the hope is that Snell can keep stepping it up and Dunleavy stays healthy so that Hinrich isn't playing so much.

But offense is about more than individual scoring. Particularly for a point guard.

Brooks is averaging 4.9 ast per 36 to Kirk's 3.3. Neither number is impressive, especially given Brooks turnovers. However, Brooks isn't a facilitating guard, nor does he need to be for effectiveness. He's playing a traditional 6th man scoring role off the bench for dirt cheap and doing it efficiently. Brooks offensive spark and hot shooting is a noticeable part of why the Bulls offense is better.

No one is going to argue that Brooks hasn't been very effective as a scorer and occasionally as a playmaker. My question is, is he giving up as many points per 36 on a high TS% to the guys that he is defending?

According to 82games.com, he has an offensive PER of 15.7 and a defensive PER of 15.6. That's a +0.1 differential. Which is much better than Hinrich, definitely, but still nothing to get very excited about. Is there a way to find out his defensive equivalents of the offensive numbers you have for him in your post?

[Concept Coop]

This place is a trip. 11 pages on the 4th guard and 3rd wing playing too many minutes--in a season in which the team has dealt with major injuries at those spots. Some calling for a great coach to be fired over it.

We all hope Snell is the answer, but he clearly wasn't for most of the season. Thibs trusts Kirks and offense hasn't been our issue. Let's hope Snell jumps Kirk like Brooks did at the PG spot. In the meantime, calm down.

We're just like every other fan base: PLAY THE YOUNG GUYZZZ!!!!!

[BuffaloBull]

19.8 points per 36
.567 TS%
.442 3P%

Yeah, Aaron Brooks is not that good on offense. Look at the splits I posted. Brooks has been consistent all season.

I don't have a dog in this fight. Hinrich has been pretty bad, and the hope is that Snell can keep stepping it up and Dunleavy stays healthy so that Hinrich isn't playing so much.

But offense is about more than individual scoring. Particularly for a point guard.

And really, for any low usage player. Because regardless of what your own stats look like, you are getting them in the context of a 5 man team.

A guy who is low usage (anything below 20%, which would be average if usage was divided equally among all 5 guys), especially below 15%, is giving up possessions to others,so their contribution has to take that into account.

Kirk, Tony, and Mike are all at 13.5% usage right now. They are all taking turns as the 5th guy and last priority on offense.

[kyrv]

This place is a trip. 11 pages on the 4th guard and 3rd wing playing too many minutes--in a season in which the team has dealt with major injuries at those spots. Some calling for a great coach to be fired over it.

We all hope Snell is the answer, but he clearly wasn't for most of the season. Thibs trusts Kirks and offense hasn't been our issue. Let's hope Snell jumps Kirk like Brooks did at the PG spot. In the meantime, calm down.

We're just like every other fan base: PLAY THE YOUNG GUYZZZ!!!!!

And...you want to play Kirk and Nazr more?

[musiqsoulchild]

I don't think Brooks or Hinrich are really good enough to be playing much over 15 mpg, unless they are really killing it one night, and especially not to be finishing games, as both present lineup inadequacies.

I'm not sure why Thibs doesn't like Mike late too often - maybe because the starting 5 unit differential is pretty meh - but if Dunleavy is too critical to upgrade from, then Thibs better start putting him out there to close, because he ends up our best bet.

Dunleavy is CRITICAL for our offense and he is passable on defense. He plays system defense and his rebounding fundamentals are spot on.

In clutch time though, you need Kirk (we've had these conversations before)...because he fills in 4 buckets to anywhere from a below-average to an above average level:

1) Ball handling pressure release if trap on Derrick
2) Defense. Especially critical defensive possessions/stops in the clutch. Even if his defense results in a basket, if he is able to force the opponent to run 18 seconds of clock, thats a plus when we have the lead.
3) 3 point shooting
4) Effective size for either guard position

Brooks, Dunleavy and Snell cannot fill in all 4 of the above buckets....though they may be able to fill in 2 or more buckets better than Hinrich can. Those 4 buckets are ESSENTIAL for Thibs....he doesnt want to weight them in the clutch. He wants presence of all 4 variables.

The one other player who can do all 4 to some degree of competency --- Etwaun Moore.

To me its no conicidence that he has been given a 2 year contract (non-guaranteed). I think Gar-Thibs see him as a potential Kirk replacement when Kirk's contract ends and he takes a vet min.

Jimmy can also do some of all 4--- it was especially heartening to see him and Derrick alternate on clutch possessions in bringing the ball up the court. Obviously, THAT would be the BEST alternative. But I dont think Jimmy is ready yet on the ball-handling part. But he's not as far as a Snell or a Dunleavy are either.

[Jax Teller]

This place is a trip. 11 pages on the 4th guard and 3rd wing playing too many minutes--in a season in which the team has dealt with major injuries at those spots. Some calling for a great coach to be fired over it.

We all hope Snell is the answer, but he clearly wasn't for most of the season. Thibs trusts Kirks and offense hasn't been our issue. Let's hope Snell jumps Kirk like Brooks did at the PG spot. In the meantime, calm down.

We're just like every other fan base: PLAY THE YOUNG GUYZZZ!!!!!

No, we don't know if Snell was an answer for most of the season because he never got a chance. What we do know 1000% is Kirk wasn't the answer for heavy minutes based on his performance in those minutes. A blind man could see this, but clearly Thibs can't. I am not calling for Thibs to get fired, but there is no logical reasoning based on performances in games why he would play Hinrich the way he does. He is so set in his ways, and in the playoffs he is so predictable and easy to coach against because of it.

[Mech Engineer]

I don't think Brooks or Hinrich are really good enough to be playing much over 15 mpg, unless they are really killing it one night, and especially not to be finishing games, as both present lineup inadequacies.

I'm not sure why Thibs doesn't like Mike late too often - maybe because the starting 5 unit differential is pretty meh - but if Dunleavy is too critical to upgrade from, then Thibs better start putting him out there to close, because he ends up our best bet.

Dunleavy is CRITICAL for our offense and he is passable on defense. He plays system defense and his rebounding fundamentals are spot on.

In clutch time though, you need Kirk (we've had these conversations before)...because he fills in 4 buckets to anywhere from a below-average to an above average level:

1) Ball handling pressure release if trap on Derrick
2) Defense. Especially critical defensive possessions/stops in the clutch. Even if his defense results in a basket, if he is able to force the opponent to run 18 seconds of clock, thats a plus when we have the lead.
3) 3 point shooting
4) Effective size for either guard position

Brooks, Dunleavy and Snell cannot fill in all 4 of the above buckets....though they may be able to fill in 2 or more buckets better than Hinrich can. Those 4 buckets are ESSENTIAL for Thibs....he doesnt want to weight them in the clutch. He wants presence of all 4 variables.

The one other player who can do all 4 to some degree of competency --- Etwaun Moore.

To me its no conicidence that he has been given a 2 year contract (non-guaranteed). I think Gar-Thibs see him as a potential Kirk replacement when Kirk's contract ends and he takes a vet min.

Jimmy can also do some of all 4--- it was especially heartening to see him and Derrick alternate on clutch possessions in bringing the ball up the court. Obviously, THAT would be the BEST alternative. But I dont think Jimmy is ready yet on the ball-handling part. But he's not as far as a Snell or a Dunleavy are either.

Thibs is looking at defense when switching happens. If you see end of games, if there is a switch because of screens....that's where most good ball handlers take advantage.

Snell pretty much can do all 4 you listed. But, it might take a playoff proof performance for Thibs to trust him. Until then, it is Kirk whether anyone likes it or not.

[musiqsoulchild]

I don't think Brooks or Hinrich are really good enough to be playing much over 15 mpg, unless they are really killing it one night, and especially not to be finishing games, as both present lineup inadequacies.

I'm not sure why Thibs doesn't like Mike late too often - maybe because the starting 5 unit differential is pretty meh - but if Dunleavy is too critical to upgrade from, then Thibs better start putting him out there to close, because he ends up our best bet.

Dunleavy is CRITICAL for our offense and he is passable on defense. He plays system defense and his rebounding fundamentals are spot on.

In clutch time though, you need Kirk (we've had these conversations before)...because he fills in 4 buckets to anywhere from a below-average to an above average level:

1) Ball handling pressure release if trap on Derrick
2) Defense. Especially critical defensive possessions/stops in the clutch. Even if his defense results in a basket, if he is able to force the opponent to run 18 seconds of clock, thats a plus when we have the lead.
3) 3 point shooting
4) Effective size for either guard position

Brooks, Dunleavy and Snell cannot fill in all 4 of the above buckets....though they may be able to fill in 2 or more buckets better than Hinrich can. Those 4 buckets are ESSENTIAL for Thibs....he doesnt want to weight them in the clutch. He wants presence of all 4 variables.

The one other player who can do all 4 to some degree of competency --- Etwaun Moore.

To me its no conicidence that he has been given a 2 year contract (non-guaranteed). I think Gar-Thibs see him as a potential Kirk replacement when Kirk's contract ends and he takes a vet min.

Jimmy can also do some of all 4--- it was especially heartening to see him and Derrick alternate on clutch possessions in bringing the ball up the court. Obviously, THAT would be the BEST alternative. But I dont think Jimmy is ready yet on the ball-handling part. But he's not as far as a Snell or a Dunleavy are either.

Thibs is looking at defense when switching happens. If you see end of games, if there is a switch because of screens....that's where most good ball handlers take advantage.

Snell pretty much can do all 4 you listed. But, it might take a playoff proof performance for Thibs to trust him. Until then, it is Kirk whether anyone likes it or not.

Can Snell bring the ball up and run clock under pressure though? Or relieve Rose if Rose is trapped?

I havent seen an instance of that in Snell's nearly 2,500 NBA minutes. Nor does any skill he has at present, inform me that he can.

I am not talking about ball-handling...Snell can do that well. I am talking being the ball-handler. You need a different threshold of comfort with the ball to be that.

[Mech Engineer]

Dunleavy is CRITICAL for our offense and he is passable on defense. He plays system defense and his rebounding fundamentals are spot on.

In clutch time though, you need Kirk (we've had these conversations before)...because he fills in 4 buckets to anywhere from a below-average to an above average level:

1) Ball handling pressure release if trap on Derrick
2) Defense. Especially critical defensive possessions/stops in the clutch. Even if his defense results in a basket, if he is able to force the opponent to run 18 seconds of clock, thats a plus when we have the lead.
3) 3 point shooting
4) Effective size for either guard position

Brooks, Dunleavy and Snell cannot fill in all 4 of the above buckets....though they may be able to fill in 2 or more buckets better than Hinrich can. Those 4 buckets are ESSENTIAL for Thibs....he doesnt want to weight them in the clutch. He wants presence of all 4 variables.

The one other player who can do all 4 to some degree of competency --- Etwaun Moore.

To me its no conicidence that he has been given a 2 year contract (non-guaranteed). I think Gar-Thibs see him as a potential Kirk replacement when Kirk's contract ends and he takes a vet min.

Jimmy can also do some of all 4--- it was especially heartening to see him and Derrick alternate on clutch possessions in bringing the ball up the court. Obviously, THAT would be the BEST alternative. But I dont think Jimmy is ready yet on the ball-handling part. But he's not as far as a Snell or a Dunleavy are either.

Thibs is looking at defense when switching happens. If you see end of games, if there is a switch because of screens....that's where most good ball handlers take advantage.

Snell pretty much can do all 4 you listed. But, it might take a playoff proof performance for Thibs to trust him. Until then, it is Kirk whether anyone likes it or not.

Can Snell bring the ball up and run clock under pressure though? Or relieve Rose if Rose is trapped?

I havent seen an instance of that in Snell's nearly 2,500 NBA minutes. Nor does any skill he has at present, inform me that he can.

I am not talking about ball-handling...Snell can do that well. I am talking being the ball-handler. You need a different threshold of comfort with the ball to be that.

Snell has brought the ball up many times especially when he gets a rebound or close to one. Is he a PG level ball-handler? Probably not but he obviously is not proficient in running a PG set which Kirk would do. But, is Kirk really doing that or is he just waiting for Rose to get free?

[dice]

At the very least Thibs should understand that playing Kirk 30+ minutes is something that his body just cant handle at this stage of his career. That is what pisses me off the most.

he's actually played marginally better with big minutes

> 27 minutes (per 36): 9.2p 2.7r 4.3a/1.6to 47.0ts
< 27 minutes (per 36): 7.8p 2.3r 2.2a/1.5to 45.8ts

he's simply not been good regardless of playing time

[musiqsoulchild]

At the very least Thibs should understand that playing Kirk 30+ minutes is something that his body just cant handle at this stage of his career. That is what pisses me off the most.

he's actually played marginally better with big minutes

> 27 minutes (per 36): 9.2p 2.7r 4.3a/1.6to 47.0ts
< 27 minutes (per 36): 7.8p 2.3r 2.2a/1.5to 45.8ts

he's simply not been good regardless of playing time

Kirk playing large minutes is not the problem. Its the SYMPTOM of the problem

I am of the opinion that the problem is injuries (Rose and minutes restriction, Butler missed a few games and then Dunleavy + Doug out for 19 games)....that is the problem.

The other alternative, according to a lot of us, is that the the problem stems from Thibs' man crush on Kirk that is non-basketball related.

I mean, if you look at this rationally, there can only be one option right?

[transplant]

First off, Hinrich is the Bulls 7th or 8th man. Second, if Hinrich can make his career average of 37-38% on 3s and Thibodeau likes him, I'm fine with it. Let's hope his healed big toe makes a difference.

[Mr Funk]

Overreaction, much?

http://www.csnchicago.com/video_content ... rting-five

Thank you.

It's incredible how easily and quickly so many can be wound up by taking a Thibs quote or two out of context.

[unknownnewbie]

Nick Friedell tweeted this today. Thibs doesn't seem interested in burying Tony, as some people claim he will.

@nickfriedell

#Thibs on Snell: "If you're playing well, you're going to play. It's really that simple ... the question is: Can he be consistent?"

#Thibs on Snell cont. "Hopefully he's turned the corner on that, so we like the way he's playing. He'll have the opportunity to continue on"

[kyrv]

This place is a trip. 11 pages on the 4th guard and 3rd wing playing too many minutes--in a season in which the team has dealt with major injuries at those spots. Some calling for a great coach to be fired over it.

We all hope Snell is the answer, but he clearly wasn't for most of the season. Thibs trusts Kirks and offense hasn't been our issue. Let's hope Snell jumps Kirk like Brooks did at the PG spot. In the meantime, calm down.

We're just like every other fan base: PLAY THE YOUNG GUYZZZ!!!!!

No, we don't know if Snell was an answer for most of the season because he never got a chance. What we do know 1000% is Kirk wasn't the answer for heavy minutes based on his performance in those minutes. A blind man could see this, but clearly Thibs can't. I am not calling for Thibs to get fired, but there is no logical reasoning based on performances in games why he would play Hinrich the way he does. He is so set in his ways, and in the playoffs he is so predictable and easy to coach against because of it.

Bingo.

And people don't want Thibs fired just because he won't play Dougie. There are many questions about Thibs and him getting a team to Point C.

[Red Larrivee]

No one is going to argue that Brooks hasn't been very effective as a scorer and occasionally as a playmaker. My question is, is he giving up as many points per 36 on a high TS% to the guys that he is defending?

According to 82games.com, he has an offensive PER of 15.7 and a defensive PER of 15.6. That's a +0.1 differential. Which is much better than Hinrich, definitely, but still nothing to get very excited about. Is there a way to find out his defensive equivalents of the offensive numbers you have for him in your post?

Brooks has a 16.3 PER to his opponent PER of 16.2.
Hinrich's has a 7.3 PER to his opponent PER of 16.3.

I'm not going to be one to blame any individual player for team defense, but in the overall scheme of things Brooks is just flat out producing more this season and has been more valuable. Hinrich's is currently one of the worst offensive players who qualifies for PER right now. He's 339th out of 348. You have to be playing some insanely elite defense to justify keeping that on the floor. He just isn't doing that.

The vision of what people want Hinrich to be (or what he used to be a long, long time ago) would be a more valuable player than Brooks, but that hasn't been a reality in quite some time.

[jc23]

At the very least Thibs should understand that playing Kirk 30+ minutes is something that his body just cant handle at this stage of his career. That is what pisses me off the most.

he's actually played marginally better with big minutes

> 27 minutes (per 36): 9.2p 2.7r 4.3a/1.6to 47.0ts
< 27 minutes (per 36): 7.8p 2.3r 2.2a/1.5to 45.8ts

he's simply not been good regardless of playing time

my point was he cant handle the wear and tear of being a 30+ min guy, it has become beyond obvious. I think those numbers would be better if he was put on a pop like schedule. Being hurt then having to play through it skews things, just look at Jimmy and his toe last season.

But i also feel he shoudnt be playing those high minutes with the roster we have.

[TheJordanRule]

No one is going to argue that Brooks hasn't been very effective as a scorer and occasionally as a playmaker. My question is, is he giving up as many points per 36 on a high TS% to the guys that he is defending?

According to 82games.com, he has an offensive PER of 15.7 and a defensive PER of 15.6. That's a +0.1 differential. Which is much better than Hinrich, definitely, but still nothing to get very excited about. Is there a way to find out his defensive equivalents of the offensive numbers you have for him in your post?

Brooks has a 16.3 PER to his opponent PER of 16.2.
Hinrich's has a 7.3 PER to his opponent PER of 16.3.

I'm not going to be one to blame any individual player for team defense, but in the overall scheme of things Brooks is just flat out producing more this season and has been more valuable. Hinrich's is currently one of the worst offensive players who qualifies for PER right now. He's 339th out of 348. You have to be playing some insanely elite defense to justify keeping that on the floor. He just isn't doing that.

The vision of what people want Hinrich to be (or what he used to be a long, long time ago) would be a more valuable player than Brooks, but that hasn't been a reality in quite some time.

Brilliant point about opponent PER, Red. Your point about Kirk's defense not overcoming his offensive deficiencies is another nail in a long line of nails in his coffin. More hard evidence that the Kirk Brigade promotes a philosophy that decreases our chances at winning, all for the chance to suck the toes of their golden boy, Thibs. The "nobody else gets why Kirk is playing except me so I'm sorta on Thibs' level" act. I am glad the Kirk Brigade got exactly what they wanted this year, as Thibs foolishly tried to play Kirk 30 mpg only to produce cringe-inducing laughably bad results. This year's putrid performance from Kirk has basically settled the argument.

Red, please allow me to revise an earlier statement I made-- Brooks is nothing special but he is A LOT better than Kirk. Saying Brooks is good is tough for a guy who was a huge fan DJ's production last season. As unfair as it seems, I'm still pissed at both Kirk and Brooks over the fact that our FO didn't bring DJ back. DJ was a rich man's version of Brooks, so the fact that we have to settle for the scraps now offered by Brooks when we used to feast on the meals offered by DJ makes me a bit disgruntled.