ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant

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ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#1 » by Nyphantom » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:17 pm

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12338 ... w%2F%22%7D

The below is an excerpt from the article, but really highlights the evolution of analytic and how data scientists are taking massive paycuts for the prestige of working in the NBA.

After our trip to the NBA Finals in 2012, the Thunder decided they needed their analytics leader in Oklahoma City full time, which was certainly a positive for the field. They didn't, however, want to pay anywhere near what I would be willing to accept to move my family from San Francisco to OKC. They had already successfully recruited my former intern, a Stanford student, to accept a 60-plus-hour-a-week job for a salary that was far below what he could have easily gotten at a big consulting firm or investment bank, so they believed they could do the same with my position. At the time, they were probably right. There were still skilled people willing to take salaries well below their market value to work in the NBA. I left with no hard feelings.

So, after five seasons with the Sonics and Thunder, I hooked on with the Cavaliers. The process of being trusted was much quicker in Cleveland. Several members of the team's front office were actually eager to hear what the analytics said.

But soon a new challenge emerged: Starting in the 2013-14 season, SportVU cameras were installed in every NBA arena. The amount of data available to teams suddenly grew from a pond to an ocean. Think about it: Those cameras capture the coordinates of 10 players plus the ball 25 times every second. That's a vast amount of data. As a result, the race to unlock the secrets of the SportVU requires a much higher level of skill than what was needed when I first started working for the Sonics. In the beginning, anyone with advanced spreadsheet skills could probably add value to a front office. Now, though, deep statistical programming skills, along with advanced computer science knowledge, are needed to create value. These are skills for which companies such as Google and Facebook pay quite handsomely.

But teams have been slow to recognize the sandbox they're now playing in. The analytics community worked hard to be accepted and learn the language of the NBA, but maybe we did too good a job fitting in. Entry-level analysts are viewed not much differently from entry-level video assistants: lucky to be in the NBA and worth a salary not much higher than $35,000. Teams are used to competing with high school and college athletic departments for staff, not with McKinsey and Bain. Realistically, aspiring NBA analysts must be willing to take at least a 50 percent pay cut from what they could earn elsewhere.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#2 » by GopherIt! » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:26 pm

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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#3 » by ccvle » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:32 pm

I dont understand what is so prestigious about working for the NBA. IF you want to do it because you love basketball, thats a different story. IF you want to do it because you want to do eventually move up to front office, thats a different story.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#4 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:59 pm

ccvle wrote:I dont understand what is so prestigious about working for the NBA. IF you want to do it because you love basketball, thats a different story. IF you want to do it because you want to do eventually move up to front office, thats a different story.


Well I don't think people would call it prestigious. To us basketball nuts sure, but even if you got the same money, you'd probably have more prestige with an average person by saying you work on Wall Street. The fact that Wall Street also pays way more means that for the most part those drawn to work in basketball analytics are just bizarrely obsessed with the game in that way.

(Says the guy with 30,000+ posts here who clearly isn't obsessed at all.)
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#5 » by Nyphantom » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:05 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ccvle wrote:I dont understand what is so prestigious about working for the NBA. IF you want to do it because you love basketball, thats a different story. IF you want to do it because you want to do eventually move up to front office, thats a different story.


Well I don't think people would call it prestigious. To us basketball nuts sure, but even if you got the same money, you'd probably have more prestige with an average person by saying you work on Wall Street. The fact that Wall Street also pays way more means that for the most part those drawn to work in basketball analytics are just bizarrely obsessed with the game in that way.

(Says the guy with 30,000+ posts here who clearly isn't obsessed at all.)


It's a simple matter of supply and demand. Investment banking or consulting analysts are a dime a dozen. There's a draw to working in pro sports because theres only a handful jobs available. NBA teams can easily poach quant guys making big bucks at a hedge fund, investment bank, or consulting firm. You saw in that article, that OKC hired an entry level Stanford PHD student on a crap salary.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#6 » by JonFromVA » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:07 pm

ccvle wrote:I dont understand what is so prestigious about working for the NBA. IF you want to do it because you love basketball, thats a different story. IF you want to do it because you want to do eventually move up to front office, thats a different story.


Oh, most sports fans would love to work for their favorite team in some capacity, and there's plenty of people who will take a job with a team without pay just to get a foot in the door. So certainly sports teams can exploit that, but then they can't match a 120K job offer to an intern who just graduated without messing up their salary structure.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#7 » by azuresou1 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:37 pm

Before I started my current job, I applied to a bunch of NBA analyst roles and landed some preliminary interviews.

Compensation was one topic that they consistently brought up, and unlike many other companies they pretty much demanded a firm salary expectation. Turns out sports analyst salaries are insultingly low when compared to general industry, at least until you become Director of Analytics.

When fresh-out-of-college hires can make $70-80K in industry and NBA teams are offering $50K to those analysts after 5 years of experience... it makes you really wonder what kind of people would be willing to take THAT type of discount just to work in sports.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#8 » by FirstInkTDot » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:49 pm

I would love being the equipment manager for the Raptors.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#9 » by Higga » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:51 pm

I interned with the Wizards when I was in college, but it wasn't some amazing job experience. It was okay I guess but basically standard intern stuff.

The truth is, unless you played the sport or have deep insiders, it's very hard to crack into a job in sports. But I guess the allure of working with pro athletes is enticing.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#10 » by Nyphantom » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:55 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Before I started my current job, I applied to a bunch of NBA analyst roles and landed some preliminary interviews.

Compensation was one topic that they consistently brought up, and unlike many other companies they pretty much demanded a firm salary expectation. Turns out sports analyst salaries are insultingly low when compared to general industry, at least until you become Director of Analytics.

When fresh-out-of-college hires can make $70-80K in industry and NBA teams are offering $50K to those analysts after 5 years of experience... it makes you really wonder what kind of people would be willing to take THAT type of discount just to work in sports.


There's definitely no shortage of analytics guys willing to take that paycut though. Seems like almost all analytics guys whether its entry or head level came from top programs.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#11 » by Kevin Johnson » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:59 pm

azuresou1 wrote:When fresh-out-of-college hires can make $70-80K in industry and NBA teams are offering $50K to those analysts after 5 years of experience... it makes you really wonder what kind of people would be willing to take THAT type of discount just to work in sports.


I make well into 6-figures. I applied for an analytics/developer role with the Hornets. I was willing to come down to 70K thinking the salary could be that low. I mean it's a dream job working for a NBA franchise doing something with stats which I spend hours and hours a week on anyway. But I didn't even get an interview. It turns out there were a ton of qualified applicants who'd leave money behind to do geeky stuff with a sports franchise.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#12 » by DByrne86 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:11 pm

How can you be an analytics consultant with only spreadsheet skills (even if advanced)? What kind of "analytics" are they talking about here. Are you telling me NBA teams have been competing based on the results of Excel formulas?
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#13 » by DByrne86 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:14 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
azuresou1 wrote:When fresh-out-of-college hires can make $70-80K in industry and NBA teams are offering $50K to those analysts after 5 years of experience... it makes you really wonder what kind of people would be willing to take THAT type of discount just to work in sports.


I make well into 6-figures. I applied for an analytics/developer role with the Hornets. I was willing to come down to 70K thinking the salary could be that low. I mean it's a dream job working for a NBA franchise doing something with stats which I spend hours and hours a week on anyway. But I didn't even get an interview. It turns out there were a ton of qualified applicants who'd leave money behind to do geeky stuff with a sports franchise.


That's so dumb. What do they think is going to happen, they're going to be partying with the NBA players, mingling with the wives courtside? Plus, the article mentions them working 60+ hours a week, so they are making an extremely low hourly rate for the opportunity to sit in the office of an NBA franchise.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#14 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:16 pm

Nyphantom wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
ccvle wrote:I dont understand what is so prestigious about working for the NBA. IF you want to do it because you love basketball, thats a different story. IF you want to do it because you want to do eventually move up to front office, thats a different story.


Well I don't think people would call it prestigious. To us basketball nuts sure, but even if you got the same money, you'd probably have more prestige with an average person by saying you work on Wall Street. The fact that Wall Street also pays way more means that for the most part those drawn to work in basketball analytics are just bizarrely obsessed with the game in that way.

(Says the guy with 30,000+ posts here who clearly isn't obsessed at all.)


It's a simple matter of supply and demand. Investment banking or consulting analysts are a dime a dozen. There's a draw to working in pro sports because theres only a handful jobs available. NBA teams can easily poach quant guys making big bucks at a hedge fund, investment bank, or consulting firm. You saw in that article, that OKC hired an entry level Stanford PHD student on a crap salary.


Your seriously think that guy on a crap salary carries more prestige than a guy making easy 6 figures on Wall Street? Take off your fan goggles, and imagine how this looks to anyone not utterly in love with basketball.

I want to be clear: I totally get why someone would rather take the basketball gig, because I love basketball, but it's like any other hobby. The dude with the biggest X collection is impressive to other X collectors for the quality of his collection, but to everyone else only the dollar value involved matters, and here we're talking about a choice that essentially has a large negative monetary value associated with it.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#15 » by ccvle » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:19 pm

=if(Parker = Derrick Rose
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#16 » by azuresou1 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:20 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
azuresou1 wrote:When fresh-out-of-college hires can make $70-80K in industry and NBA teams are offering $50K to those analysts after 5 years of experience... it makes you really wonder what kind of people would be willing to take THAT type of discount just to work in sports.


I make well into 6-figures. I applied for an analytics/developer role with the Hornets. I was willing to come down to 70K thinking the salary could be that low. I mean it's a dream job working for a NBA franchise doing something with stats which I spend hours and hours a week on anyway. But I didn't even get an interview. It turns out there were a ton of qualified applicants who'd leave money behind to do geeky stuff with a sports franchise.


Hah, $70K was about my 'acceptable' range as well.

It's also a good $25K more than what teams were offering.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#17 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:21 pm

DByrne86 wrote:How can you be an analytics consultant with only spreadsheet skills (even if advanced)? What kind of "analytics" are they talking about here. Are you telling me NBA teams have been competing based on the results of Excel formulas?


He said this was the case in the beginning, and that's totally believable. "spreadsheet skills" here really means "I don't even need to use special software or write custom code to do quant stuff far more advanced than these guys have imagined". That moment where a business gets its first quant guy oftentimes works just like that.

Once the industry understands the power of analytics though, things escalate quickly. Nowadays it's hard to imagine breaking into to an NBA front office like this unless you've got heavy academic background in statistics or you've been running circles around others in the basketball statistics community online, which again, is a lot harder than it used to be.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#18 » by Nyphantom » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:25 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Nyphantom wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Well I don't think people would call it prestigious. To us basketball nuts sure, but even if you got the same money, you'd probably have more prestige with an average person by saying you work on Wall Street. The fact that Wall Street also pays way more means that for the most part those drawn to work in basketball analytics are just bizarrely obsessed with the game in that way.

(Says the guy with 30,000+ posts here who clearly isn't obsessed at all.)


It's a simple matter of supply and demand. Investment banking or consulting analysts are a dime a dozen. There's a draw to working in pro sports because theres only a handful jobs available. NBA teams can easily poach quant guys making big bucks at a hedge fund, investment bank, or consulting firm. You saw in that article, that OKC hired an entry level Stanford PHD student on a crap salary.


Your seriously think that guy on a crap salary carries more prestige than a guy making easy 6 figures on Wall Street? Take off your fan goggles, and imagine how this looks to anyone not utterly in love with basketball.

I want to be clear: I totally get why someone would rather take the basketball gig, because I love basketball, but it's like any other hobby. The dude with the biggest X collection is impressive to other X collectors for the quality of his collection, but to everyone else only the dollar value involved matters, and here we're talking about a choice that essentially has a large negative monetary value associated with it.


There's prestige in it because there tends to be an ample supply of guys working on wall street that would be willing to transition into sports analytics for a major pro team at a paycut. That's from my own personal experience in the industry, I've known guys at big hedge funds and investment banks that applied for some role at an NBA team and get shot down. The major analytics guys are starting to come from wall street backgrounds now.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#19 » by reignfire » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:28 pm

This guy is trying to take credit for Sam Presti's success in the draft.

That's all it is.
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Re: ESPN: Life of an NBA analytics consultant 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:37 pm

Nyphantom wrote:There's prestige in it because there tends to be an ample supply of guys working on wall street that would be willing to transition into sports analytics for a major pro team at a paycut. That's from my own personal experience in the industry, I've known guys at big hedge funds and investment banks that applied for some role at an NBA team and get shot down. The major analytics guys are starting to come from wall street backgrounds now.


The essence of prestige is in impressing others.

The supply of willing basketball analytics people isn't because people are desperate to tell their father-in-law they took a major payout to go work for a company specializing in a children's game, it's because they personally love basketball.
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