Lopez for Reggie Jackson falls apart; Nets acquire Thad Young for KG (UPDATE: Page 58)

[Prokorov]

You are right. So you see Prok...it wasnt an issue at the time.

not that day of the trade... but thats because that info wasnt available. once VC4P pointed it out, it did become a big deal with many. It isnt like people were only getting mad a year or 2 after the deal. we were mad like a month after the trade, before the season even started....

either way, its in levels

Wallace Deal - everyone was mad at the time, it was a terrible deal then and it was obvious

JJ Deal - split some mad some not at the time, majority not mad. a month later when the pick swap came out majority were mad. For me i loved the player, was ok with the deal but still felt it was a wild overpay. but even then if we didnt make the wallace move it would have been whatever. I was actually good with that trade the whole time, but if we are being accurate most AT THE TIME we found out about the pick swap were not ok with the deal.

for me the blazers should have gotten the 1st we gave to atlanta for joe and the joe trade we should have only given the pick swap.

[Prokorov]

He(THAD) is better than Lance though.

This is true. and if he was a SG id feel better about it.Then we would have filled the SG issue.

I dont view Thad from KG as much of an upgrade, certainly not enough to get us from where we are to the playoffs.

The thad level SG is a major upgrade from the bogs/karasev/AA/morris mess we have going though. If we had gotten kevin martin isntead i think id be more excited. gives you 2 excellent 3 point shooters on the wing and another at PG when dwill is in. throw plums at PG and let brook start again and roll with that. or sign blatche and make him PF.

Right now best option is move JJ to SG, Thad to SF, and go with Brook/Plums in the front court or bring blatche to play PF. Go big, punt on 3 point shooting and hope its enough to smack bad teams around to get to 35+ wins.

Im a fan of lance. this has been stated often and id love him here. but i think what you are missing because of that is that i want to upgrade SG moreso then get lance. If we traded brook for anyone who upgraded SG id be happy with it. because i think that gives us a better chance to make the playoffs.

[enetric]

I am not going to do the advanced metrics thing with you. That only goes so far with me. And in reverse there is only so much I can say pro Lopez before your hair would literally burst into flames!

I don't need you to and it wasnt ym intent to argue over advanced stats. i only pointed it out to illustrate this isnt a 20/10 guys v.s a 5/5 guy. Maybe it was just a bit of a hyperbole on your part, but at least statistically from a birds eye view one guys insnt a "massive masssive massive upgrade" over the other.

But I will say this. I do think the all star version of Lopez was better...much better than you were giving him credit for in years past. I dont have a high opinion of Hollins. I do think that he has a lot to do with what is going on this season.

As for saying 4 coaches 3 rosters...you are glazing over the times he was playing well and injury seasons, lumping it all in there.

He probably was better then I was giving hm credit for, but i dont think it was by much. I dont think he is a guy you put on a mediocure team that automatically makes him a good team. I dont think he has that kind of impact. I say that mostly because he isnt a 2 way player, and because scoring bigs arent really what wins today. He isnt someone like shaq or dwight where you fear it anytime he touches it within 5 feet because its a dunk. or where your backside wings need to always be sneaking in incase of a lab. or your wings impededing him on the roll because if he catches it your toast. in that regard, he isnt opening up that wing/corner 3 for your offense, and he isnt generating doubles/attention when he DOESNT have the ball(which is what seperates scoring bigs from dominant bigs).

either way, we can argue that forever. as far as the coaches, i guess you can throw away last year due to small sample. and just go on this year vs the first year in brooklyn. i guess you i can see you pointing to coaching if you were high on his year in brooklyn 2 years ago. we both know i am not, but that is debateable.

I am by no means saying he is great. But I think from day one so much has been ignored as to what his role might have looked like had Dwill been who he was supposed to be. That's important. An extreme example...I am much more impressed with what LMA is with Damian Lillard than what he was exaggerated to be before him. I hope you know what I mean.

Having said all of that...I do not have a crystal ball. I do not know if the best of Lopez is behind him or if Kanter will get better.

But...from what I have observed I have been far more impressed with the best of 26 year old Lopez vs. the best of 23 year old Kanter. And given a fresh start for both...if I were drafting them right now....yes....I like Lopez much more.

Yea, like i had assumed earlier, it seems like you think that:

a) lopez is probably capable of getting back to his numbers from his allstar season
b) that form is good enough to get us back into the playoffs

and what im not sure on

c) you think lopez should be extended and kept around

for me a is irrelevant because i dont think b is true

but more importantly is C. if you think C is true, then yeah it would make alot of sense why these other deals whose purpose is make the playoffs now and let them expire after next season dont make sense. im operating under the assumption there is no way we extend lopez and if he isnt moved he is let to expire and we use that cap space in free agency in '16.

but can you see it from my view? if you dont think C is true, and dont think B is true... then it makes a TON of sense to move lopez for a Gaurd/Wing upgrade who is on a deal as long or shorter then lopez to see if that is enough to salvage playoffs this year.

basically, what is your view ondo you think lopez should be kept long term?

Really excellent post. I enjoyed reading that. And yes I do see your view completely.

Quick replies.

On a stats based argument for this specific season yeah..of course not much of a difference to Kanter. But that would be like comparing Vince Carter scoring 16ppg down the stretch of his final Raps season and being surprised when he starts dropping 30 nightly. I just think its fair to say that Brook has been put out of the mix with this coach and its to everyone's detriment. I think that if we could simply commit back to this guy...that we would play more like 3 seasons ago and be back to a .500 type team. I dont know if this coach can win him back or restore his confidence for this year...but I have such a low opinion of what I have seen of Stephenson that I would react to him much like you did before Blatche got here. I see him as a minus. But one that costs us a 26 year old center who was an all star 5 seconds ago that seems to be healthy for a change I dont see the value in that.

Now, sure I think its a very reasonable argument to say...if you think he is gone in a year...why not make a deal? My point is the deal I wanted was future asset value. Picks. Tradeable assets for down the road. Restock the cupboard left bare by BK through all these other deal. I wanted the Dragic type deal. If you cant make that deal...then the sum gain of not trading for a guy I view as a minus for the short term over a guy I think is vastly better but not helping is zero. I wouldnt have lost my mind over the trade but I wouldnt have been excited either. I saw no upside in that trade short or long term. I saw absolutely nothing of merit for our team talent wise.

Now if the argument were 100% cap driven...that's different. I would have said OK...no BS-ing ourselves here. Lance is not good...not going to help us now but here is the cap argument. OK fine, do it.


Here's another scenario. Now that the trade deadline has passed. I fire Hollins. I try to refocus Lopez and get on his back the rest of the way. I do believe that refocusing a more talented Lopez is more viable the rest of this season that the hot mess that is Lance this season. Have you seen him? I mean...Travis Outlaw is saying..and you guys hated me????!

[Trader_Joe]

I agree. He's made dumb trades but has an eye for certain talent. The Gerald Wallace trade pretty much ruined the positive future this team could have had.

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

[enetric]

He(THAD) is better than Lance though.

This is true. and if he was a SG id feel better about it.Then we would have filled the SG issue.

I dont view Thad from KG as much of an upgrade, certainly not enough to get us from where we are to the playoffs.

The thad level SG is a major upgrade from the bogs/karasev/AA/morris mess we have going though. If we had gotten kevin martin isntead i think id be more excited. gives you 2 excellent 3 point shooters on the wing and another at PG when dwill is in. throw plums at PG and let brook start again and roll with that. or sign blatche and make him PF.

Right now best option is move JJ to SG, Thad to SF, and go with Brook/Plums in the front court or bring blatche to play PF. Go big, punt on 3 point shooting and hope its enough to smack bad teams around to get to 35+ wins.

Im a fan of lance. this has been stated often and id love him here. but i think what you are missing because of that is that i want to upgrade SG moreso then get lance. If we traded brook for anyone who upgraded SG id be happy with it. because i think that gives us a better chance to make the playoffs.

I agree with the Kevin Martin point. That would have made a lot more sense. I just meant it like this. I rank these 4 players right now like this:

Lopez
Young
KG
Lance

I prefer to deal #3 for #2 than #1 for #4 is all.

And as I said in the last post...I have more faith (slim as it is) on refocusing Lopez over Lance this year. I really dont like what I have seen with Lance. And the way he shoots you might as well play Lopez at the 2 or find Hassan Addams.

I agree the best option is to move JJ to 2 and Thad to 3. And that is what I would do and start Lopez. And Thad can give us some three pointers. His stat profile is more SF than PF even though yes he is more of an undersized stretch 4.

[Mkdaman1818]

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

I can actually see the pick swap being a request from Billy instead of from Ferry. It was irresponsible sure, but no one could have imagined this playing out as it has. Billy rolled the dice, and it looks like we we got snake eyes.

[MGrand15]

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

Just to add. Normally bad contracts like Joe get traded for equally bad contracts w/ less time. It'll be 4 years of awful money being traded for 2-3 years of awful money. That's normally considered market-value return for a terrible contract. Normally to completely unload a contract the deal would be something like BAD CONTRACT + future 1st for immediate CAP RELIEF.

We gave them IMMEDIATE salary cap relief. Plus we sent out a bunch of picks without receiving any picks in return. All because BK wanted to do Ferry a favor and assumed we'd be better than Atlanta for the next 6 years. Completely unnecessary.

[Trader_Joe]

IMO Kanter is going to dissapoint them and then look for a max from them. He's a pretty bad defender who's game hasn't evolved much since coming into the league. Defensively he's not going to help against Duncan , Gasol, etc. (Perkins did) and offensively he's not good enough to make much of an impact against those guys either.

that same paragraph describes lopez.... a bad defender whose game hasnt evolved much(and has declined massively this year). and defensively he doesnt help against those you mentioned and offensively he has numbers but low impact

Which is why I said I didn't think Lopez was the ideal fit either in another post, but I didn't even bring him up here.

But ..

-Lopez blocks shots, Kanter doesn'tt (1.7 vs. 0.3)

-Kanter allows opponents to shoot 58% at the rim, Lopez 50% which is a large difference. In fact Kanter allows the highest percentage of any big man playing over 25 mpg, only guards are ahead of him. Lopez is 1.5 percentage points within the likes of Hordford, Drummond, Gortat, Davis, Gasol, Jordan Chandler. Kanter is on par with Kyle Korver

-Lopez has a better defensive rating by about 3 points.

Pretty much every defensive stat favors Lopez significantly. Lopez is a significantly better defender than Kanter

Meanwhile:
Gasol - 24 pts
Duncan - 17 pts
vs. Kanter

Gasol - 16 pts
Duncan 10 pts on 35%
vs Lopez

I love how I have to take a 3 month break from here and see nothing has changed. I don't even have to say the word Lopez and yet you feel a need to reply to every single post of mine and usually bring him up. I see you finally even said you you admittedly underrate him but think I really care to hear the same anti-Lopez agenda you will carry on as long as he's on the team? I really don't, so I'm not sure why you waste your time preaching it to me every chance you can. Sure I appreciated your feedback on Young as it was new and original, but I get your stance on Lopez 8000 posts later.

[Trader_Joe]

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

I can actually see the pick swap being a request from Billy instead of from Ferry. It was irresponsible sure, but no one could have imagined this playing out as it has. Billy rolled the dice, and it looks like we we got snake eyes.

If it was a request by King, it would have been so we can swap picks with them, not vice versa.

[enetric]

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

JJ was universally regarded as one of, if not the worst contract in the NBA. I never heard anyone else rumored trading for him and the fact that we can't get anything for him now, despite his contract being shorter is telling. The pick swaps seemed unnecessary and weren't even mentioned originally as though King was trying to hide the fact he yet again overpaid. They got major financial relief and a lotto protected first as well as a 2nd IIRC. There was no need to swap picks as you never know what the future holds.

I am not disputing that we shouldnt have done the pick swap. I am saying at the time I can see how BK might have had pressure on him to get another big name in the door year one Brooklyn and if the sticking point was right to pick swap for picks you never expected to pick swap...I can see how that happened. Easy to cry later.

As for your comment I highlighted I dont think there is anything telling about that. Bad contracts do not get better until the final season if you can use it as a large expiring. Until then...the annual cap hit keeps climbing as the veteran player declines. if anything it is less tradeable.

Now, had JJ NOT been on a bad contract he was worth much more than one mediocre 1st and right to swap two others that seemed unlikely to swap. So lets acknowledge that. And just because no one coveted taking on his contract didnt mean King was a lock to get him one way or the other. King wanted to make use of our expiring contracts as assets and at the time we had a pick cash. His direction was moving up as the Hawks were moving down.

I dont want to get confused here that I am defending King or the trade. I am simply pointing out the penchant for media and fans to play after the fact analysis. I can see what he was trying to do there even though I would have not have done it. But you know what? People only complain when they can attach their version of the unknown. for example. We gave up two #3 overall picks for D.Will who has been MUCH worse than JJ. What if those #3 pick had yet to be made instead of becoming Favors who isnt special and Kanter who isnt very good?ell people would lose their minds!!! WE GAVE UP LOTTERY PICKS FOR THIS GUY!!!! Oh my god!!!

Which is what people are doing here. Things fell a certain way and we want to cry about. Its the foolish game of shoulda coulda woulda. This isnt the same thing as Wallace for that reason. You could see it.

So sure rip the overpay because it was. But lets have perspective.

[Trader_Joe]

I'm not sure how ANYONE with a sane mind can look at that chart and try to spin things in a positive light, but the one thing I've learned is that Net fans are **** ing DELUSIONAL.

Yes we are!
And you are one too.
You just happen to be the angriest out of all of us and still delusional.

No sir, I am not delusional. I tell it like it is.

OTOH....clearly, I am a sadomasochist to emotionally invest in this team

You:
-that Net fans are **** ing DELUSIONAL
-You are a Nets fan.
-Thus you are delusional as well.

Guess my point is, I don't get why you feel a need to generalize the fan base and disparage them as much as possible, while putting yourself on a pedestal separate from the rest of us delusional folk. Not sure the need to create such derision towards your fellow Nets fans. All I know is I haven't been able to be online for some time, I come back on and scroll through the threads and every thread contains you putting down everyone and everything (from posters to players to the FO, etc), name calling, swearing at people, using caps to express anger at us, etc. I don't know man, the last couple months have been some of the toughest times I've been through, but the last thing I feel a need to do is take out any anger or frustrations I have inside on those around me, especially those I'd rather consider my Nets family as opposed to enemies. If we have differences of opinion and see things differently, isn't that a good thing? Isn't that why we're here? Why try to insinuate you are the voice of reason, why those that disagree with you are delusional and berate them?

Sorry, rant over.

[enetric]

No wait you are right. We just should have gone to the mall and said, "I would like to exchange these players please". Doesn't matter for what. Just give me whatever you have back there.

You are trying to simplify something and talk yourself into false hope over absolute garbage. There was no need to trade Lopez at all costs. If there is a good trade you make it. If not...too bad.

I hear you but i think you are exagerating the situation. It isnt like we would have had to pay philyl a first and karasev to take on lopez. there were some deals out there. and none of those deals changed our cap situation or plans for the future... all the contracts ran in line with or shorter then lopez.

I know Lance is overhyped here, but is it really out of the question that if we had lance/zeller instead of lopez that we could make the playoffs?

I guess the question i have for you in particular with is, what is your best case plan for lopez? are you signing him to an extension to stay here. because unless you are, then i really dont see the benefit of keeping him around. He isnt helping us win, whether its on him or not that is the reality. why not make a change and fill SG and see what happens this year. we dont chagne future plans doing so.

Maybe im reading this wrong, but i feel like you expect that lopez if used right by hollins should be an impact 20/7 type big good enough to help us make the playoffs. and i guess i really dont see that.

Yes, I see no reason Lopez cant in theory be the guy he was a couple of seasons ago. I dont know if Hollins is the guy to do that at this point but yes. I dont see a loss of talent. I see a player who doesnt click with his coach. He hasnt declined physically.

As for Lance/Zeller? This is where we part ways. I see it as completely impossible that it would have helped this year. Perhaps if Zeller pops in a couple of years I will say...yeah should have done that FOR ZELLER.

But I expect Lance to go the way of Austin Croshere. As in...hey remember that one good year that dude had, got paid and then he disappeared?

I feel he had a perfect niche in Indy that he wouldn't have had here. I feel he needs to be with a superstar. Where he is the guy you ignore on D and he burns you. Where the coach gives him little things and he gives you something. I think he is such a low level role guy with a 5 cent head that I would liken it to trading for JR Smith without a great shot.

[enetric]

You're right, glad we did nothing else. This team was a lot better standing pat. We will also make the playoffs.

No wait you are right. We just should have gone to the mall and said, "I would like to exchange these players please". Doesn't matter for what. Just give me whatever you have back there.

You are trying to simplify something and talk yourself into false hope over absolute garbage. There was no need to trade Lopez at all costs. If there is a good trade you make it. If not...too bad.

The only person who was on board with trade Lopez for "whatever other teams have" was Prokorov. He wanted McGee for Lopez straight up. I don't think we should have traded him at any cost. Come on. All I'm saying is that he should have explored more options. He publicly says he's shopping his core 3, then later says he's not making any calls... WTF kind of GM do we have?

I'm hoping to hope that Lopez does good for us. But I've grown tired of his inconsistency and empty stats. I would rather take on a different set of players now and try again. And I believe 99% of the fan base agrees with this logic. They feel the same way about Deron. Joe is the only guy that can be defended b/c of what he's done in recent history.

I would never defend the players the coach or the GM. All should go.

I am saying that just because a deal wasnt made doesnt mean its obvious BK and his team didnt due their due diligence and see what was out there. What is said publicly and how negotiating is done are very different things. The fact that 3 deals were made public weeks ago and two others this week with one going down involving 3 different starters tells me something very different.
it tells me that if there was this much talk that we know about there was A LOT MORE that we didnt.

Most deals arent public until right before they go down yet we know from things GM's say they are all talking all the time. They just arent going to say yeah...I am looking to trade this guy and that one to the press and then run into the dude at lunch.

King is not a slow to trade guy. Its not his MO. If anything his history is to make deal all the time at all costs.

Thank your lucky stars he didnt make some of the deals I am sure he was offered. Would you have been happy if he threw Plumlee into a deal just to move Lopez?

I am just saying you have a mental picture built out of frustration not out of known facts. We dont know what was out there. But I think its unlikely he was binge watching old episodes of Scrubs all week.

[Trader_Joe]

No wait you are right. We just should have gone to the mall and said, "I would like to exchange these players please". Doesn't matter for what. Just give me whatever you have back there.

You are trying to simplify something and talk yourself into false hope over absolute garbage. There was no need to trade Lopez at all costs. If there is a good trade you make it. If not...too bad.

I hear you but i think you are exagerating the situation. It isnt like we would have had to pay philyl a first and karasev to take on lopez. there were some deals out there. and none of those deals changed our cap situation or plans for the future... all the contracts ran in line with or shorter then lopez.

I know Lance is overhyped here, but is it really out of the question that if we had lance/zeller instead of lopez that we could make the playoffs?

I guess the question i have for you in particular with is, what is your best case plan for lopez? are you signing him to an extension to stay here. because unless you are, then i really dont see the benefit of keeping him around. He isnt helping us win, whether its on him or not that is the reality. why not make a change and fill SG and see what happens this year. we dont chagne future plans doing so.

Maybe im reading this wrong, but i feel like you expect that lopez if used right by hollins should be an impact 20/7 type big good enough to help us make the playoffs. and i guess i really dont see that.

Yes, I see no reason Lopez cant in theory be the guy he was a couple of seasons ago. I dont know if Hollins is the guy to do that at this point but yes. I dont see a loss of talent. I see a player who doesnt click with his coach. He hasnt declined physically.

As for Lance/Zeller? This is where we part ways. I see it as completely impossible that it would have helped this year. Perhaps if Zeller pops in a couple of years I will say...yeah should have done that FOR ZELLER.

But I expect Lance to go the way of Austin Croshere. As in...hey remember that one good year that dude had, got paid and then he disappeared?

I feel he had a perfect niche in Indy that he wouldn't have had here. I feel he needs to be with a superstar. Where he is the guy you ignore on D and he burns you. Where the coach gives him little things and he gives you something. I think he is such a low level role guy with a 5 cent head that I would liken it to trading for JR Smith without a great shot.

Lopez has declined physically.
He's not near as strong as he was, and despite the weight loss, he looks like he's lost a step and doesn't dunk like he used. He used to be top 10 in dunks his first two seasons, and even as he got bigger he seemed to make it down the court quicker. But I don't think that explains the decline. If anything it's mental. He's not used to the tough approach from Hollins, but finally seems to be responding. Since he came back from the back injury he's been a better defender and rebounder and has been playing tougher. Offensively he's been better (not as good as he has been) but that's because Hollins finally figured out how to use him. He's not a back to the basket and isolate him post up player like Hollins thought, nor is he a mid range shooter which he was relegated to exclusively for some time. He's best facing up, running picks and roll, and moving towards the basket.

[Trader_Joe]

Good exchange here. Add in that OKC will always make the penny pinching moves.

I actually don't blame OKC for what they did. A far less price to pay for two serviceable pieces instead of giving us everything for Brook, whose foot will probably break next week.

Did they really pay a far less price? Reggie Jackson was the key piece and they dealt him. They chose the more financially sound move. Sure...you can argue Brook has more downside due the medical history than Kanter but he also has much much much more upside. Have you seen Kanter play? Meh!

I dont blame them however...They are not upside gamblers if they have to put their money on the line. Cap drives all for that team would be the best team in the NBA right now With James Harden still on the roster. Its a shame that organization is small market and runs on small thinking.

Far less for Kanter?

Didn't they pay more for him?

Our deal was supposedly and essentially:

Perkins, Jackson, PJ3
for
Brook (and probably Jordan or Brown)

Instead they did:

Perkins, Jackson, Rights to Pleiss, Jarrett and a #1
for
Singler - a scrub they didn't need
Augustin - an ok back up PG
Novak - a bad player and contract
Kanter

They gave up more IMO.

[enetric]

Lance represents the highest upside. Since our team has nothing to lose by bringing him in they should have took him for the pennies on the dollar he represents.

Well, see here is the thing. I feel pretty confident that Lance's upside was last year which doesnt touch the best we have seen of Lopez. And his reality is closer to what we are seeing THIS YEAR. And sadly...through the Lopez hate so many of you have ignored one simple fact. Lance has been far worse this season than Brook!

I disagree about Lance's upside but assuming he is only as good as last year then he is still better then Lopez. Lopez hasnt developed at all. He is still just a scorer and rim protector. He is a bad defender, cant pass out of a double team and still cant rebound. We have Plumlee to start if we traded Lopez, have the inside track on resigning Blatche because of his bird rights and Jerome Jordan is a perfectly functional backup big. Anderson has been our best SG which speaks to how bad we are at the position. Both Bogs and Karasev are SFs and Brown hasnt shown enough to trust he is the answer. We could have easily replaced Lopez's production while strengthing our biggest need.

With that said, Im glad we didnt trade Lopez for the trash that we were offered for him. Lance has All Star upside as Lopez does so that's why I would be OK with that trade. Reggie Jackson on the other hand is nothing more then a middle of the pack PG who will be grossly overpaid.

You think Lance last year is better than the best you have seen of Lopez? The hell you say! And 30 GM's would disagree with that.

But here is the thing I dont think last year is Lance's upside going forward. I think unless he find that situation again... playing next to an elite superstar and a 5 with fully defined roles where he can be the "other guy" his upside is THIS YEAR! I think you are looking at a guy who gets a mid level or gets cut and signs on with contender type team and he can shine in the extra role.

I think he would have been just as much of a fungus here as he is in Charlotte. I mean seriously. Right now he is in Marshon Brooks territory of bad. And I might be insulting Marshon.

[enetric]

Take away the pick swaps and the JJ deal would have been fine.

In other words...get the All star SG for nothing? Or do you mean...had the picks NOT been swapped as a result of record? Because...

At the time the Hawks were a perennial 7/8 team who was dumping JJ for 4 expiring guys 3 of which left the NBA and the dumped Josh Smith. We were the team that supposedly had top 10 NBA superstar Deron Williams, a 23 year old all star center and were adding 6 time all star Joe Johnson to a team owned by a guy who was prepared to spend even more to get a title.

No one expected those picks to ever be swapped. The thought was, they were rebuilding for the next few years and we would be a playoff team for the next few.

That a was a very reasonable gamble that unfortunately backfired. But it wasnt a high price to pay at the time. That's why its a mistake to attach actual pick value years after the fact to a trade. If it had gone the other way...and we had the better record we would have said...we stole him.

Get the all star PG for nothing? No one was trading for Johnson's contract at that time besides us for the Hawks had zero leverage especially when they were desperate to get rid of him...if I'm wrong, please name another team that was rumored to even remotely pick up the tab for Joe Johnson's god awful contract.

That wasnt my point at all but scroll back and read I replied to another post about this.

[enetric]

Here is a thought.

We need to get rid of DWill and the Kings have shown interest in him. If Rudy Gay isnt one of Karl's guys I would love to revist trading DWill to them for Gay and Stauskas. This of course would be contingent on resigning Blatche since he is the perfect Lopez insurance.

Gay / Stauskas

for

DWill / Plumlee


I think playing an undersized, quick PF like Young makes sense next to Lopez as it almost dares teams to post up which allows Lopez to play to his strengths. Gay is like Young in that he can play some small ball PF also and is a good wing defender. Slide JJ back to SG and now I think we have something. We can swith 1-4 on PnR. We would be sacrificing rebounds but the defense would be much more disruptive. The core would be:

Lopez - Blatche
Young
Gay - Bogs
JJ - Stauskas
Jack

Ok you have to explain this to me. You feel Lopez value is so low that that you actually covet Lance for him. Look up Lance this year. Pull some articles...watch a game or two.

But in reverse Dwill who is even worse in every aspect...play, contract etc. You think he is worth RUDY GAY?

[enetric]

enetric: I don't think anyone is crying over the Boston deal, we were all on board because we thought that

a)Lopez would be healthy
b)Deron would be worth a damn

Neither of that worked out, compounded with the fact that KG got traded here while on his last legs.

The Wallace trade and the Johnson pick swaps are inexcusable actions. The Hawks were in no position to even talk about having access to our picks. King clearly threw his buddy danny ferry a bone and it backfired horribly.

I wouldnt phrase that last part that way exactly but fair enough.

[enetric]

You seriously think that these two guys are going to play hard?

Williams is content on being a 2nd string PG making max dollars. Lopez will coast like he usually does and he'll walk in the summer for nothing.

There is nothing remotely good about the situation at hand. Nothing.

I am sorry but I think Hollins has to take a lot of the blame for how things have gone with Lopez this year. In past seasons while we may have questioned some things....when healthy this guys has for the most part impressed. This is the first time he has been healthy and it has been this frustrating. I think Hollins has wreaked havoc on this kid.

How many years are we going to continue to blame the coaches? The stuff that we're seeing from Brook is nothing new, the only difference is now he actually has a coach that doesn't tolerate his **** and another center on the roster that plays harder than him and puts up double doubles despite being while inferior offensively. Plumlee has outplayed Brook all year and goes 100%, Brook will have a monster game and then coast the next one. This has gone on for years....I don't think Hollins is perfect, but I refuse to blame him because Brook does not give max effort and cannot rise up to a coach rightfully challenging him to give his all for the team.

How come Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph love Lionel, but Brook has had "havoc" wreaked upon him?

I'll tell you why, because Gasol and Randolph aren't soft players who don't play hard.

You know that Plumlee hasnt been outplaying him all year right? You forgot that it was him that started the year heavily in the dog house.

And if you are going to cite players who you think loved this coach isnt it fair to also point out that after a great season he was canned?

At some point you might want to factor that into the scenario.