2014-2015 NBA MVP Discussion

[rcontador]

I agree with all this, It really wasn't what i was debating. Anyway....

Then what exactly are you debating? You're saying that Lebron is playing better than Curry based on 15 games after he took a two week vacation?

Curry is doing historic things this season. So far the Warriors have played like one of the best teams ever. The only historic thing Lebron is doing, is historically underperforming expectations.

[CnG]

Would GS fall off a cliff without Curry? I doubt it. LeBron already has that going for him.

Fall off a cliff? No, but completely irrelevant. Find me a team that‘s winning 83% of its games that would "fall off a cliff" if you removed one player. Would they be winning at the historic rate and point differential we‘ve only seen a couple of times ever? Nope.

You people are stretching so much trying to justify Lebron being MVP that your main argument is a period of less than 20 games. We completely dismissing the time when he wasn‘t even trying and his team were getting smacked around by teams deliberately trying to lose? Such short memories. The Warriors just went through their worst stretch, playing like absolute trash against NY, Philly etc. and Curry has still gone for 25+ points in the last 8 consecutive games.

Incredible people still trying to wiggle a way for the whole "team mate" argument. You are the same people who put the Warriors 1st in your predictions right? No? What about top 3, with HOF talent like Klay Thompson and Draymond Green finishing in the top 3 had to be a lock right? Mhmm...

What to expect from someone that has their account named after him and more than likely watches basketball and follows the Cavs because of him. Open your mind, broaden your horizons. ‘Ignorance is Bliss‘ has, and will never, be true.

I actually have Harden as the MVP right now, with LeBron 3rd. I'm just saying that the Cavs being absolutely garbage when he took his little vacay can be used in his favor if he keeps playing like this and the Cavs finish 2nd, or even first (doubt they will catch Atlanta though).

P.S. I hate Harden more than anyone in the league so I'm not anti-Curry or anything. Also, I've been watching ball since the mid 90's thank you very much.

Harden definitely has a case for MVP, so long as the Rockets finish in the top 3.

It can be, but look at those teams they faced when Lebron was out. They got destroyed by good/great teams. You can make the case but they were playing so bad even with James at the time that I don‘t think he would‘ve made *that* much difference. Maybe if they were losing to NY/Philly/Orlando without him but it was a Western Conference road trip.

The problem I have with the whole "yeah but Harden/Lebron solely carry their team" is that if that the Warriors have been SO MUCH better than other MVP candidates‘ teams. If they were even close record-wise I wouldn‘t be trumping Curry over Harden. Obviously Curry‘s teammates are playing better than Lebron/Harden‘s but that doesn‘t mean Curry has less of an impact on the game than those two, and the advanced statistics and eye test will prove that.

There‘s also this misconception that Curry‘s stats aren‘t even that good. Compare his per36 minute stats to Lebron and Harden‘s and Curry‘s are just as impressive. Worth remembering he‘s a PG too.

[rcontador]

You said 'having garbage teammates doesn't help you in the MVP race'

Ah okay. Sorry, my response was pretty confusing. Your original post implied that Lebron has a chance in the MVP race because his team would suck without him.

What I should have said was: Yeah, Lebron's supporting cast isn't that good (arguably). But his team with him isn't that good either, compared to the Warriors, so what am I supposed to be impressed by?

[INKtastic]

I agree with all this, It really wasn't what i was debating. Anyway....

Then what exactly are you debating? You're saying that Lebron is playing better than Curry based on 15 games after he took a two week vacation?

Curry is doing historic things this season. So far the Warriors have played like one of the best teams ever. The only historic thing Lebron is doing, is historically underperforming expectations.

LeBron went to a team who didn't make the playoffs in 4 years, had absolutely no continuity, had a new system on both offense and defense, a first time NBA coach, a first time NBA GM and has turned them into the best team in the NBA. It didn't start on day 1, there was too much change for that. But it has happened.

Since his return from injury, the cavs have the best ORtg, best net +/-, best record and are dominating the league



It's ridiculous to expect an instant day one turnaround with all of the changes. LeBron is the reason they have been able to get as good as they have so quickly. He's especially done wonders for Kyrie Irving.

The two teams play each other Thursday.

[CnG]

I agree with all this, It really wasn't what i was debating. Anyway....

Then what exactly are you debating? You're saying that Lebron is playing better than Curry based on 15 games after he took a two week vacation?

Curry is doing historic things this season. So far the Warriors have played like one of the best teams ever. The only historic thing Lebron is doing, is historically underperforming expectations.

LeBron went to a team who didn't make the playoffs in 4 years, had absolutely no continuity, had a new system on both offense and defense, a first time NBA coach, a first time NBA GM and has turned them into the best team in the NBA. It didn't start on day 1, there was too much change for that. But it has happened.

Since his return from injury, the cavs have the best ORtg, best net +/-, best record and are dominating the league



It's ridiculous to expect an instant day one turnaround with all of the changes. LeBron is the reason they have been able to get as good as they have so quickly. He's especially done wonders for Kyrie Irving.

The two teams play each other Thursday.

There is so much that angers me in this, it‘s tough to respond respectfully when with so many sweeping statements.

I don‘t even call the Warriors "the best team in the NBA" and you‘re throwing it out there for the Cavs on the basis of a 15 game stretch where their record has been marginally better than the Warriors who have just had their worst stretch of the season.

The sob story about the adversity the Cavs and Lebron have had to face was entertaining though.

[Hero]

Is AD injury prone? Could be something to watch going forward and will surely hurt his chances at getting multiple MVPs if this continues.

[bondom34]

I know he won't win it, but Westbrook really deserves to be in the discussion. OKC is 4-10 w/o him, 26-15 w/ him. He has the most 30/10 games in the league and missed 14 games. No, he's not as efficient as Harden or Curry, but he's as effective as them IMO. I get he won't win it, but he deserves some votes.

[kingkirk]

I know he won't win it, but Westbrook really deserves to be in the discussion. OKC is 4-10 w/o him, 26-15 w/ him. He has the most 30/10 games in the league and missed 14 games. No, he's not as efficient as Harden or Curry, but he's as effective as them IMO. I get he won't win it, but he deserves some votes.

By Russell Westbrook, do you mean the overgrown Allen Iverson?

[bondom34]

I know he won't win it, but Westbrook really deserves to be in the discussion. OKC is 4-10 w/o him, 26-15 w/ him. He has the most 30/10 games in the league and missed 14 games. No, he's not as efficient as Harden or Curry, but he's as effective as them IMO. I get he won't win it, but he deserves some votes.

By Russell Westbrook, do you mean the overgrown Allen Iverson?

GOATbrook. Please, though credit for the name to PaulieWal.

[juju14]

Then what exactly are you debating? You're saying that Lebron is playing better than Curry based on 15 games after he took a two week vacation?

Curry is doing historic things this season. So far the Warriors have played like one of the best teams ever. The only historic thing Lebron is doing, is historically underperforming expectations.

LeBron went to a team who didn't make the playoffs in 4 years, had absolutely no continuity, had a new system on both offense and defense, a first time NBA coach, a first time NBA GM and has turned them into the best team in the NBA. It didn't start on day 1, there was too much change for that. But it has happened.

Since his return from injury, the cavs have the best ORtg, best net +/-, best record and are dominating the league



It's ridiculous to expect an instant day one turnaround with all of the changes. LeBron is the reason they have been able to get as good as they have so quickly. He's especially done wonders for Kyrie Irving.

The two teams play each other Thursday.

There is so much that angers me in this, it‘s tough to respond respectfully when with so many sweeping statements.

I don‘t even call the Warriors "the best team in the NBA" and you‘re throwing it out there for the Cavs on the basis of a 15 game stretch where their record has been marginally better than the Warriors who have just had their worst stretch of the season.

The sob story about the adversity the Cavs and Lebron have had to face was entertaining though.

I think Curry should win Mvp, but to act like the Cavs after the trades and getting accustomed to each other is the same is ridiculous. Jr. Smith,OmanShumpert, and Mosgov completely changed the team offensively and most importantly defensivly. Son story? Was the Heat a son story in 11 because they started off bad?

[kingkirk]

GOATbrook. Please, though credit for the name to PaulieWal.

His USG% is Michael Jordan 87 and Kobe Bryant 06 levels, whilst having KD on his team. VOLUMEbrook.

Payback for that silly Indiana comment, guy!

[bondom34]

GOATbrook. Please, though credit for the name to PaulieWal.

His USG% is Michael Jordan 87 and Kobe Bryant 06 levels, whilst having KD on his team. VOLUMEbrook.

Payback for that silly Indiana comment, guy!

Actually, he hasn't had KD on his team a lot of the time .

And really I've always been a Pacers guy, but I've grown to like the Bulls too, partially b/c I think you guys have a lot of good fans on here (not saying you're one of em ), partially b/c I like Jimmy Butler.

[bondom34]

I know he won't win it, but Westbrook really deserves to be in the discussion. OKC is 4-10 w/o him, 26-15 w/ him. He has the most 30/10 games in the league and missed 14 games. No, he's not as efficient as Harden or Curry, but he's as effective as them IMO. I get he won't win it, but he deserves some votes.

4 and 10 without him...

...and the MVP.

???

[kaiballz]

lebron might have a slim shot, but harden probably has no chance. the head to head counts too much against him.

steph and his warriors flat-out spanked harden and his rockets. it wasn't even a normal win, it was flat out schooled, spanked, taught a lesson. thats too big a hurdle to overcome. can't be the mvp when u got bitchslapped by the other contender.

[bondom34]

4 and 10 without him...

...and the MVP.

???

I'm commenting on the fact that you omitted the fact that they were also missing the current MVP? ...

OK....that doesn't diminish the numbers...per the PC board:

Also, don't know if he's reading, but if so...SideshowBob, do you have the SRS numbers w/ and w/o Russ and KD?

OKC In/Out (HCA/SOS adjusted)

Spoiler:

*Westbrook and Durant's injured games have been removed (@LAC and @GSW) for all samples other than full season

-------------------------------------------------------

OKC Season (55 G)

+2.84 SRS, +0.6 Offense, -2.0 Defense

-------------------------------------------------------

Westbrook, Durant OUT (14 G)

-3.52 SRS, -5.8 Offense, -2.2 Defense

-------------------------------------------------------

Westbrook, Durant IN (26 G)

+5.98 SRS, +3.4 Offense, -2.3 Defense

-------------------------------------------------------

Westbrook IN, Durant OUT (13 G)

+2.74 SRS, +1.5 Offense, -1.0 Defense

-------------------------------------------------------

So Westbrook In/Out shift is +6.25 SRS, and +6.1 shift in adjusted net rating. Durant's presence is coinciding with an SRS shift of +3.25. If I account for portability and the base level they are improving (Westbrook added to -3.5 team, Durant added to +2.75 team), Westbrook comes out as a +5.5 SRS player (which jives with my personal evaluation) and Durant a +3.5. Considering Durant has been A.) playing inconsistent, great at times and hobbled at times due to injury and B.) lower minutes, this does not seem wild. Healthy Durant at ~38 MPG is still a +6ish guy IMO.

Disclaimer: These are observations, not conclusions.

[bondom34]

Westbrook's been great, but they're an 8 seed and he's missed more than a quarter of the season. He's not going to be in the MVP discussion, and mentioning that they were "4-14 without him'' while simultaneously ignoring that they were also without KD isn't helping.

Not saying he should win. Just be in the convo. His numbers are right there with the other guys, his impact is there too.

Edit: Also, see:
viewtopic.php?p=42778313#p42778313

[Dupp]

Westbrook is a top candidate but not a legit candidate to win. Like Lebron he's cost his team wins by not playing. His team is also gonna have a worse record and seeding than the cavs so i wouldnt put him over lebron either who is behind the 2 leaders.

Personally i have

1) Curry

2) Harden


3) & 4) Lebron and Davis

Then i'd put GoatBrook in the mix for 5th.

[TaylorMonkey]

I agree with all this, It really wasn't what i was debating. Anyway....

Then what exactly are you debating? You're saying that Lebron is playing better than Curry based on 15 games after he took a two week vacation?

Curry is doing historic things this season. So far the Warriors have played like one of the best teams ever. The only historic thing Lebron is doing, is historically underperforming expectations.

LeBron went to a team who didn't make the playoffs in 4 years, had absolutely no continuity, had a new system on both offense and defense, a first time NBA coach, a first time NBA GM and has turned them into the best team in the NBA. It didn't start on day 1, there was too much change for that. But it has happened.

Since his return from injury, the cavs have the best ORtg, best net +/-, best record and are dominating the league



It's ridiculous to expect an instant day one turnaround with all of the changes. LeBron is the reason they have been able to get as good as they have so quickly. He's especially done wonders for Kyrie Irving.

The two teams play each other Thursday.

Lebron didn't go to the team that missed playoffs for four years.

He went to the team with a new Big Three and a respected coach he didn't want to listen to. It would be a team which he could barely keep above .500. Then he took a vacation.

The Cavs streak that every Lebron homer wants to pin on Lebron just happened to coincide with massive roster changes the Cavs made to shore up their pathetic defense in games where Lebron also played-- and coasted.

Yes those games count for and against Lebron too. So do his games missed. You don't get to hit the reset button because of your little field trip to Miami as much as Lebron stans want to frame the narrative nonsensically that way.

I mean don't you even follow your own team?

Meanwhile Curry has been doing his thing day in and day out from the start of the season, ALSO with a new (rookie!) coach and an entirely new offensive system. Curry bought in from day one even though his beloved coach was fired against his wishes, and now leads the team with the best record in the league holding the best individual advanced metrics and playing every game this season so far in a much tougher conference. It's also arguable if Klay and GSW's next best player--Green?-- are even as talented as Love and Irving.

So who is the more valuable player?

[Madhouse]

So who is the more valuable player?

Lebron.

Cavs went 1-7 when Lebron was injured. Lebron comes back Cavs go on to a 12 game winning streak. Easily Lebron.

[olive_triangurl]

^ Imagine if Harden or Curry missed 8 games.
Do you think LeBron should get credit for missing 8 games? Really?
If that were true then in a tight MVP race (for example the current MVP race between Curry and Harden) one of them could go on a 2 week holiday and come back and win the MVP because they missed 8 games to show their value Funny stuff!