OT: Kobe to Retire After Next Season

[JeremyB0001]

In the post MJ era, here's how I'd rank the players:

1. Shaq
2. Lebron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe

I think at least.

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Kobe

[kingkirk]

I never cared much about him. After watching MJ, it was like watching a cheap imitation. Got way too much hype because of being in LA. He didn't win anything without dominant big men unlike MJ or Lebron.

Obviously, a great player for his era and a HOFer but overhyped in the overall greats list.

Neither did Magic or Bird. Shaq never won a title without a HOF wing.

As a Kobe homer, these threads make me mad.

[kingkirk]

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Kobe

What are the arguments for having him behind KG and Dirk?

[League Circles]

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Kobe

What are the arguments for having him behind KG and Dirk?

Yeah seriously. He was a FAR bigger scoring threat from day 1 than KG has ever been, and a FAR better defender for nearly his whole career than Dirk has ever been.

Then he won 4 more titles than either guy.

[JeremyB0001]

Yeah seriously. He was a FAR bigger scoring threat from day 1 than KG has ever been, and a FAR better defender for nearly his whole career than Dirk has ever been.

Then he won 4 more titles than either guy.

I guess I wonder what the arguments are for having Kobe ahead of them. Just that he's a huge volume scorer/shot creator whose teams won some titles? Championships are a pretty dubious measure of a player's ability. As LeBron likes to point out, Jud Buechler has a lot of rings. In Kobe's best season, the Lakers won 48 games and were bounced in the first round of the playoffs, so like all other players, he's clearly not capable of taking a team to great heights on his own. He would have won zero championships if he didn't have great supporting casts and one of the best coaches ever. Kobe scored a lot of points, but points per game are the most overrated part of basketball, and he didn't really have other elite skills. His defensive contributions have been grossly overrated - the Lakers have been hiding him on the worst opposing wing for at least a decade. In comparison, KG was not only a big time scorer, he was an elite rebounder and defender. Dirk not only scored at a great clip, he had elite efficiency and strong rebounding. When it's all said and done, there are additional players like Durrant, Chris Paul, and Wade who may also surpass Kobe in my book.

[ChosunX]

We get competitors, it's just top talent won't have that much attitude openly because of the unique media situation that we have right now.

[kingkirk]

I guess I wonder what the arguments are for having Kobe ahead of them. Just that he's a huge volume scorer/shot creator whose teams won some titles? Championships are a pretty dubious measure of a player's ability. As LeBron likes to point out, Jud Buechler has a lot of rings. In Kobe's best season, the Lakers won 48 games and were bounced in the first round of the playoffs, so like all other players, he's clearly not capable of taking a team to great heights on his own. He would have won zero championships if he didn't have great supporting casts and one of the best coaches ever. Kobe scored a lot of points, but points per game are the most overrated part of basketball, and he didn't really have other elite skills. His defensive contributions have been grossly overrated - the Lakers have been hiding him on the worst opposing wing for at least a decade. In comparison, KG was not only a big time scorer, he was an elite rebounder and defender. Dirk not only scored at a great clip, he had elite efficiency and strong rebounding. When it's all said and done, there are additional players like Durrant, Chris Paul, and Wade who may also surpass Kobe in my book.

There is probably not one word in this post i agree with, namely the part about, "He would have won zero championships if he didn't have great supporting casts and one of the best coaches ever".

You can make the exact same argument for virtually every player that has won a title. You could say the exact same thing about Michael Jordan.

It's just wrong to note Kobe as simply some volume scorer that was in the right place, right time.

[JeremyB0001]

There is probably not one word in this post i agree with, namely the part about, "He would have won zero championships if he didn't have great supporting casts and one of the best coaches ever".

You can make the exact same argument for virtually every player that has won a title. You could say the exact same thing about Michael Jordan.

That's the entire point. Hence, the reason that I referred to him as being "like all other players" in this regard.

It's just wrong to note Kobe as simply some volume scorer that was in the right place, right time.

I do think it helped him to play for perhaps the most popular team in NBA history with great supporting casts and perhaps the best coach in NBA history. Don't you? But I'm not trying to denigrate the guys. He's one of the 50 or so best NBA players of all-time. He's just been hugely overrated, in my opinion. And I'm not convinced that he had multiple elite skills. I think that he had one - volume scoring/shot creating - and fortunately for him, that skill is by far the most popular one with NBA fans.

[dougthonus]

When measuring rings in terms of impact on your legacy, only the rings where you were the best player count.

In that sense Kobe has two rings.

It'd be like arguing Scottie Pippen over Bryant because Pippen has six rings.

I don't believe the ring argument has tons of merit, but it does have some. However, the merit it does have is when seeing how many you earned as the primary force, now how many you have total.

[Wont PerDont]

Wait...Kobe is still playing?

I thought he and Nash were in jail, no? They should be. I mean, seriously...Have you ever seen 2 guys steal more money from a business out in the open the way they have the past couple years and NOT be charged with a crime.

[Tenchi Ryu]

When measuring rings in terms of impact on your legacy, only the rings where you were the best player count.

In that sense Kobe has two rings.

I never agree when people bring this up. The only time Kobe truly rode Shaq was the first ring. Rings 2 and 3 Kobe was just as much the team leader as Shaq was, a true 1a 1b situation. A second option doesn't average 30 points in a playoff series.

I'm on a Bulls forum though, so its not exactly uncommon to find negative opinions of Kobe from Jordan fans such as ourselves.

[JeremyB0001]

I never agree when people bring this up. The only time Kobe truly rode Shaq was the first ring. Rings 2 and 3 Kobe was just as much the team leader as Shaq was, a true 1a 1b situation. A second option doesn't average 30 points in a playoff series.

I'm on a Bulls forum though, so its not exactly uncommon to find negative opinions of Kobe from Jordan fans such as ourselves.

If you feel like opinions of Kobe are fatally subjective, why not look at the stats, which are completely objective:

Win Shares

Duncan - 197.26
Dirk - 190.26
KG - 190.05
Shaq - 181.71
LeBron - 175.04
Kobe - 173.11

PER

LeBron - 27.69
Shaq - 26.43
Chris Paul - 25.48
Wade - 25.14
Durrant - 24.67
Dirk - 23.36
Kobe - 23.22
KG - 22.78