Running offense through Rose vs Butler

whodey · Post #1 » by **whodey** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:55 pm

Prior to the all star break I started seeing the offense come alive through ball movement, players moving, and pick and roll.

My favorite offense is ran one of two ways.

1. Works better in the fourth quarter, but should still be used in spurts through the game is when Rose runs the pick and roll with Gasol, Butler, Noah, and even Taj. I think our guys are better at picking and popping. Even though Noah can't shoot, he can still create offense with his passing and driving to the basket if left open. Butler can pop and shoot or drive hard to the basket. Gasol has been a great mid range shooter. I thing the same for Gibson in comparison to the black hole post up moves. It also give Derrick more options.

2. When Rose brings the ball up and passes to Noah at the top of the circle and runs a back cut to the basket. All the other guys are moving around, setting screens, etc. The ball moves like a hot potato. I think Noah still makes great decisions with his passing for the most part.

What I don't like :

1. Butler isos. He's solid, but the offense becomes too stagnant and predictable. I rather use Butler in other ways to get his baskets.
2. Post ups. Gasol is ok, but Gibson is mind numbing.

Thoughts?

bullboy18 · Post #2 » by **bullboy18** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:32 pm

Id rather take Taj post ups over Pau, but Taj is a blackhole and doesnt kick on the double, and he gets doubled a lot. But the reason Id take him on post ups over Pau is because I hate that Pau holds the ball for 10 seconds before making any attempt at the hoop.

Even though we have some legit bigs, I think the only players that should be in the post are Rose and Butler. Butler on post ups and cuts, rose on driving. Then be a jump shooting team with every one else; Taj, Pau, etc. Noah at the top of the key passing but he needs to not hold the ball so long at the top too, though I know he is looking for cutters and all that.

pylb · Post #3 » by **pylb** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:52 pm

The ball always sticks for a second or two when it hits Butler. I hope he can improve on that in the future.

Post #4 » by **Rerisen** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:16 pm

I'm not sure Butler has to go iso to have offense ran at him. Early in the year (and pre-season) when Rose was out, Butler looked like a pretty darn effective closer actually. But he wasn't just going iso, he was cutting from the wing areas, posting up, coming off screens and getting a pass.

It might not come to mind easily, but Butler is way better at drawing fouls than Derrick Rose, and when we look to him for offense he is far more likely to get easy points.

whodey · Post #5 » by **whodey** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:38 pm

Rerisen wrote:I'm not sure Butler has to go iso to have offense ran at him. Early in the year (and pre-season) when Rose was out, Butler looked like a pretty darn effective closer actually. But he wasn't just going iso, he was cutting from the wing areas, posting up, coming off screens and getting a pass.

It might not come to mind easily, but Butler is way better at drawing fouls than Derrick Rose, and when we look to him for offense he is far more likely to get easy points.

I agree that Butler does not need to go ISO to produce offense and that he definitely can draw fouls better than Derrick.

But, games like Detroit happen when we play through Butler too much. Ball sticks, guys don't move, and the spacing is lost. We just don't make the opposing defense think enough when Butler goes one on one or plays the pick and roll.

I just think Derrick needs to get more repitions in the pick and roll because that's the offense that will take us deep in the playoffs, not Jimmy Butler isos.

WindyCityBorn · Post #6 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:39 pm

Rerisen wrote:I'm not sure Butler has to go iso to have offense ran at him. Early in the year (and pre-season) when Rose was out, Butler looked like a pretty darn effective closer actually. But he wasn't just going iso, he was cutting from the wing areas, posting up, coming off screens and getting a pass.

It might not come to mind easily, but Butler is way better at drawing fouls than Derrick Rose, and when we look to him for offense he is far more likely to get easy points.

It is very easy to see Butler is way better at drawing fouls. First he looks for contact and second the refs seems to respect him more than Rose.

That being said Rose at his best is still a level above Butler. Unfortunately we rarely see his best.

malcrk · Post #7 » by **malcrk** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:36 pm

bullboy18 wrote:Id rather take Taj post ups over Pau

go to bed thibs

bullsRlife · Post #8 » by **bullsRlife** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Rose causes more action on the opposing defense, and way more confusion. We really do need to run the Rose/Pau PnP more often, or even the Rose and whoever PnP, all game long.

RebuildaBulls · Post #9 » by **RebuildaBulls** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:26 am

Problem with Taj is he doesnt know when to pass the ball out, he runs into double teams often and becomes a black hole at times.

Butler is a work in progross at iso, hes been getting better though and his passing out from it is getting better.

whodey · Post #10 » by **whodey** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:03 am

bullsRlife wrote:Rose causes more action on the opposing defense, and way more confusion. We really do need to run the Rose/Pau PnP more often, or even the Rose and whoever PnP, all game long.

Exactly, it really doesn't matter who, I think every guy other than Snell and Dunleavy would work in the pick and pop/roll. Dunleavy and Snell provide the spacing, unlike Hinrich.

bullsRlife · Post #11 » by **bullsRlife** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:35 am

whodey wrote:
bullsRlife wrote:Rose causes more action on the opposing defense, and way more confusion. We really do need to run the Rose/Pau PnP more often, or even the Rose and whoever PnP, all game long.

Exactly, it really doesn't matter who, I think every guy other than Snell and Dunleavy would work in the pick and pop/roll. Dunleavy and Snell provide the spacing, unlike Hinrich.

Yep, even rusty Rose is too much for a lone defender, so defenses are forced to double or triple him, and leaving much more open shots.

Jimmy, while effective is still basic. You can at least trust a defender to force him to pick up his dribble, and pull up for a turn around mid range jumper, and if worst comes to worst, you double him as he's rushing to the rack, but even then, his speed isn't dramatic enough where he can always turn that corner, and find the most open man. Usually, he comes from the baseline, only leaving the smallest passing lanes, usually the corner 3 man.

Rose can turn the corner, and find multiple offensive players (more passing options). And just having better handles than Jimmy allows him to dribble into more desirable spots while being doubled to find 1-3 passing options, instead of just 1.

Basically, unless your shooting guard is James Harden, you'd prefer to run your offense through your PG or through an elite big man with a great post game (but then you need multiple 3 pt. threats, so for us, Rose is ideal).

vvgotgame19 · Post #12 » by **vvgotgame19** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:00 am

Yea Butler doesn't really have the ball handling to be an iso guy. For example, last night to end one of the quarters (2nd?), we cleared out for Butler and he put a cross on his man and it led to nothing. You can tell he's not all that comfortable trying to beat his man off the dribble. I like him posting up, coming off screens and cutting.

Rose is still pretty good when isolated. I feel pretty confident when I see him going one on one. I love the Rose & Gasol pick&pop and IMO should be our bread and butter.

As far as posting up, with the right matchup Gasol can really do some damage. Against good defenders and bigger stronger guys we should limit his post ups. I hate it when Taj will take on 2-3 guys or spin into traffic. He's a good post up guy, but because he's so predictable we need to limit his touches down there.