K. Pelton: Lakers non believers in advanced stats

[DEEP3CL]

Sedale, bear with me here, man, I'm not disagreeing with you about the value of analytics. In fact I +1'd one of your first posts on it here.

My point was pretty simple: ESPN is very, very agenda driven. It's not even a conspiracy as much as they have talking points like any other network and they try to hit them hard.

An obvious talking point of theirs is the narrative that the Lakers are a fading franchise, their star, Kobe's body has failed him after years of overuse (read: chucking), their golden king owner had passed succeeding power to his underserving, incompetent son and his business savvy daughter. Throw in a love triangle (see what I did there? and technically it can be familial love or obligation) for Shakespearean drama and you're there.

So that was their premise. And as far as the talking points:

The Lakers are old, irrelevant, misguided, and stuck in their ways.

To say these talking point aren’t pervasive and haven't reached critical mass this season is wrong. You see it from their national/local radio programming, flagship show, and spearheaded with particular zeal by their affiliate blogs.

So I'd that's true then you have to ask yourself why? Why can't the Lakers simply rebuild? Why are they trashing us nonstop more then they are simply praising the winning teams?

At a certain point it seems personal. And it is for these analysts--these guys are Laker haters. They loathe Kobe Bryant and the team he's kept in relevance. We're at a tipping point and they're going for blood with potshots about analytics and hit pieces that are in no way journalism.

The video I posted is to illustrate just who we are dealing with here. And yes you can say the True Hoop guys are a small vocal minority and be absolutely correct.

However, to say they don't have an agenda as you inferred in the post I was responding to I think it’s fair to look at the evidence of these “journalists” and take a look at their motives. They don’t seem to be benevolent to me. They’re not trying to help the Lakers find their way. They’re trying to take them down. Slava suggested they have something to gain, beyond simple Laker hate, which to me makes sense because the Lakers are such a popular franchise, that I bet as a whole it isn’t good for business (ESPN or NBA) that so many people around the country who don’t even live in Los Angeles, their favorite team is the Lakers, rather than the team a half state away, because when the Lakers are this bad, it doesn’t bode well.

Maybe that’s off-base, and really it’s not on me to know. I pointed out, though, something that was admittedly off-topic (you know what OT stands for, right?). I said it was human behavior to be tribal.

You and I don’t disagree on analytics. I do think there are different issues here. ESPN’s affiliated analysts dislike the Lakers so they use any means necessary to delegitimize them. It has a personal flavor to it, which is why I brought up that I agree with Barkley: some of the most vocal proponents of analytics just happen to be these wesley guys who have a zeal in ragging on the old guard. Barkley is being defensive, but I actually agree the way guys like in the video and specifically ESPN act are like high school kids who were bullied and now turning the tables. There’s something very distasteful about it all.

Again, this was a post replying to the fact that it’s not a conspiracy. I said it doesn’t have to be a conspiracy, it can simply be human nature, and the unfortunate direction sports journalism and journalism in general is going.

(Note: With ernest respect--I didn’t read any of your post about Charles Barkley.

I brought him in to suggest the one aspect of his quote on analytics: a lot of the messengers here with advanced stats are guys who seem desperate to have power, and now they have the numbers (in amounts of people.)

It’s a mob mentality. TBH, I don’t care about Barkley, he’s a craggily old blowhard who occasionally hits the nail on the head. Regardless, he used to be funnier.

My point was never about analytics, or their value. I totally agree that we should invest heavily in them and that they are a tool and not an end all, and that very few proponents of them seem to think they are an end all—it is a sort of straw man argument, however I can also see that some of the sports writer advanced stats guys seem to be so overzealous about selling them, they act like they are the end all.

These are separate issues, man. I get that. As I said, slightly OT. And still not a conspiracy theory. I don’t usually take to those. I do take to simple observations to human behavior, which I think Barkley attempted.)

Yo Crazyeights this is an absolutely excellent post. Well thought out and I love the fact that you brought up how the media has been on some "Let's Lynch the Lakers" while they're down mantra they've been on all season and last for that matter.

They've used every avenue possible to discredit and take shots at the Lakers, like this analytics piece this Pelton guy wrote. More of the same agenda driven venom is in it.


I was gonna make a thread pointing out such articles and quotes and pot shots. Bottom line is this and it's what my elders always told me....The people that praise you when you're on top are the ones that ALWAYS respected you. The ones that talk about you when you're down are the ones that NEVER respected you, never liked you and could only wait until you're down to say and act how they really feel.

Great post thought.

[Mamba Venom]

Advanced stats are a must for role players and completing a team. When we are talking about a max signing we need to make the right one and surround that/those players with great complimentary pieces.

[Mamba Venom]

Sedale, bear with me here, man, I'm not disagreeing with you about the value of analytics. In fact I +1'd one of your first posts on it here.

My point was pretty simple: ESPN is very, very agenda driven. It's not even a conspiracy as much as they have talking points like any other network and they try to hit them hard.

An obvious talking point of theirs is the narrative that the Lakers are a fading franchise, their star, Kobe's body has failed him after years of overuse (read: chucking), their golden king owner had passed succeeding power to his underserving, incompetent son and his business savvy daughter. Throw in a love triangle (see what I did there? and technically it can be familial love or obligation) for Shakespearean drama and you're there.

So that was their premise. And as far as the talking points:

The Lakers are old, irrelevant, misguided, and stuck in their ways.

To say these talking point aren’t pervasive and haven't reached critical mass this season is wrong. You see it from their national/local radio programming, flagship show, and spearheaded with particular zeal by their affiliate blogs.

So I'd that's true then you have to ask yourself why? Why can't the Lakers simply rebuild? Why are they trashing us nonstop more then they are simply praising the winning teams?

At a certain point it seems personal. And it is for these analysts--these guys are Laker haters. They loathe Kobe Bryant and the team he's kept in relevance. We're at a tipping point and they're going for blood with potshots about analytics and hit pieces that are in no way journalism.

The video I posted is to illustrate just who we are dealing with here. And yes you can say the True Hoop guys are a small vocal minority and be absolutely correct.

However, to say they don't have an agenda as you inferred in the post I was responding to I think it’s fair to look at the evidence of these “journalists” and take a look at their motives. They don’t seem to be benevolent to me. They’re not trying to help the Lakers find their way. They’re trying to take them down. Slava suggested they have something to gain, beyond simple Laker hate, which to me makes sense because the Lakers are such a popular franchise, that I bet as a whole it isn’t good for business (ESPN or NBA) that so many people around the country who don’t even live in Los Angeles, their favorite team is the Lakers, rather than the team a half state away, because when the Lakers are this bad, it doesn’t bode well.

Maybe that’s off-base, and really it’s not on me to know. I pointed out, though, something that was admittedly off-topic (you know what OT stands for, right?). I said it was human behavior to be tribal.

You and I don’t disagree on analytics. I do think there are different issues here. ESPN’s affiliated analysts dislike the Lakers so they use any means necessary to delegitimize them. It has a personal flavor to it, which is why I brought up that I agree with Barkley: some of the most vocal proponents of analytics just happen to be these wesley guys who have a zeal in ragging on the old guard. Barkley is being defensive, but I actually agree the way guys like in the video and specifically ESPN act are like high school kids who were bullied and now turning the tables. There’s something very distasteful about it all.

Again, this was a post replying to the fact that it’s not a conspiracy. I said it doesn’t have to be a conspiracy, it can simply be human nature, and the unfortunate direction sports journalism and journalism in general is going.

(Note: With ernest respect--I didn’t read any of your post about Charles Barkley.

I brought him in to suggest the one aspect of his quote on analytics: a lot of the messengers here with advanced stats are guys who seem desperate to have power, and now they have the numbers (in amounts of people.)

It’s a mob mentality. TBH, I don’t care about Barkley, he’s a craggily old blowhard who occasionally hits the nail on the head. Regardless, he used to be funnier.

My point was never about analytics, or their value. I totally agree that we should invest heavily in them and that they are a tool and not an end all, and that very few proponents of them seem to think they are an end all—it is a sort of straw man argument, however I can also see that some of the sports writer advanced stats guys seem to be so overzealous about selling them, they act like they are the end all.

These are separate issues, man. I get that. As I said, slightly OT. And still not a conspiracy theory. I don’t usually take to those. I do take to simple observations to human behavior, which I think Barkley attempted.)

Yo Crazyeights this is an absolutely excellent post. Well thought out and I love the fact that you brought up how the media has been on some "Let's Lynch the Lakers" while they're down mantra they've been on all season and last for that matter.

They've used every avenue possible to discredit and take shots at the Lakers, like this analytics piece this Pelton guy wrote. More of the same agenda driven venom is in it.


I was gonna make a thread pointing out such articles and quotes and pot shots. Bottom line is this and it's what my elders always told me....The people that praise you when you're on top are the ones that ALWAYS respected you. The ones that talk about you when you're down are the ones that NEVER respected you, never liked you and could only wait until you're down to say and act how they really feel.

Great post thought.

The media is taking jabs while they can. This opportunity only comes around every so often. The real issue is that free agents might believe this garbage. Remember the KD and Paul George don't want to play w/ Kobe article that was complete BS. This is in the same spirit. The only way to stop these kinds of articles is to make that free agent splash and win. It is a process. I for one think Oak/top 5 pick-Randle-Kobe-max FA signing-max trade can be a great team and hope it happens soon.

I would love to see
Rondo (max FA)
Kobe
Melo (max trade)
Randle
Oak or Embid

[Sedale Threatt]

xxx

Appreciate the post, and I have a lot of respect for you as a poster in general. But to be frank, I don't really have much interest in most of your issues, especially when wedged into this particular thread. Personally, I don't take anything the media does personally. People are taking pot shots at us -- big deal. We're one of the worst teams in the league. We deserve it. We're not immune. The Knicks, for example, get absolutely lambasted. And they deserve it, too.

It's pretty simple -- you win, you get praised. Lose, you get ripped. We're in a major transition period, and there are very legitimate questions about what direction we're headed. Maybe we'll answer them positively, maybe we won't. Otherwise, it comes off to me as spoiled children, given all the success and all the praise we've enjoyed over the years, to complain about unfair treatment. Man up.

[ALL HAIL]

xxx

Appreciate the post, and I have a lot of respect for you as a poster in general. But to be frank, I don't really have much interest in most of your issues, especially when wedged into this particular thread. Personally, I don't take anything the media does personally. People are taking pot shots at us -- big deal. We're one of the worst teams in the league. We deserve it. We're not immune. The Knicks, for example, get absolutely lambasted. And they deserve it, too.

It's pretty simple -- you win, you get praised. Lose, you get ripped. We're in a major transition period, and there are very legitimate questions about what direction we're headed. Maybe we'll answer them positively, maybe we won't. Otherwise, it comes off to me as spoiled children, given all the success and all the praise we've enjoyed over the years, to complain about unfair treatment. Man up.

I was thinking the same thing dude. Who cares about the clouds swirling around the organization? When you're a high profile team that loses you get roasted. The Yankees were really, really bad years ago and were killed in the media. The Cowboys, Steelers, and Raiders all the same.

There is some truth to what you're saying about articles that fit into a narrative, but I'm pretty sure, as history has shown us, that's par for the course.

Arguing this isht looks weak as hell and hella emotional.

[Sedale Threatt]

Here's a good article on a possible use of advanced analytics other than finding that diamond in the rough or avoiding the mid range shot which some people seem to think is all that the information you can get.

This piece talks about how the dodgers are hoping to use advanced analytics to better help them with injury prevention.

http://m.ocregister.com/articles/dodgers-652520-pitchers-john.html

While the Dodgers won’t go into specific details, it seems they’re intent on extending the sport's analytics revolution to a new branch. They’re trying to gain an edge on other teams by using enhanced data both to better gauge the risk of signing an oft-injured player and to increase the efficacy of preventative steps taken to decrease the frequency of injuries.

“As we are going through available players, we find requisite upside, and we dig into their medical histories to see if it’s a fool’s errand or not,” Friedman said this week. “We appreciate the risk and appreciate the upside.”

“I would contend,” Friedman said, “that any kind of advantage in injury prevention is significant.”

That’s where they’ll turn to biomechanics – physics, as it relates to how humans move.

Friedman brought in biomechanics consultant Brent Pourciau this spring to analyze video of Dodger pitchers and suggest small optimizations to their deliveries.

Pourciau gained popularity as an Internet-based coach for amateur pitchers, then grew his Top Velocity brand to work with recent draft choices, and, this last offseason, Aardsma and Barry Zito. He even consulted for an MLB team last season – Friedman’s Tampa Bay Rays.

In the original article by Pelton he mentioned how the Spurs also use advanced analytics for the purpouse of injury prevention.

This is probably going to be the next frontier. Sports Illustrated ran an article some months back about biomechanics and injury prevention and all that. They focused on one firm that, among others, Kyle Korver has been working with. And oh look, he's having a career year. The Spurs just hired a couple of sports scientist types who are in charge of establishing physical baselines for the players and then monitoring their condition as the season wears on. NFL teams have been adding people like that for a couple of years now. Game tactics, player projection, injury prevention, salary negotiations -- this stuff runs the full gamut.

[crazyeights]

xxx

Appreciate the post, and I have a lot of respect for you as a poster in general. But to be frank, I don't really have much interest in most of your issues, especially when wedged into this particular thread. Personally, I don't take anything the media does personally. People are taking pot shots at us -- big deal. We're one of the worst teams in the league. We deserve it. We're not immune. The Knicks, for example, get absolutely lambasted. And they deserve it, too.

It's pretty simple -- you win, you get praised. Lose, you get ripped. We're in a major transition period, and there are very legitimate questions about what direction we're headed. Maybe we'll answer them positively, maybe we won't. Otherwise, it comes off to me as spoiled children, given all the success and all the praise we've enjoyed over the years, to complain about unfair treatment. Man up.

I was thinking the same thing dude. Who cares about the clouds swirling around the organization? When you're a high profile team that loses you get roasted. The Yankees were really, really bad years ago and were killed in the media. The Cowboys, Steelers, and Raiders all the same.

There is some truth to what you're saying about articles that fit into a narrative, but I'm pretty sure, as history has shown us, that's par for the course.

Arguing this isht looks weak as hell and hella emotional.

I'm not arguing about anything. I'm pointing out that Slava's post isn't a conspiracy theory and that ESPN is a large part in creating a false message about our team that as Mamba pointed out is hurting our standing with FAs and in general. I think most of it is totally overblown, and while I'm not crazy with Jim I think our problems were bound to happen. We're in a transitional state, as Sedale said, and I agree.

Slava pointed out there may be greater forces at play here and I simply find that to make more sense. As Sedale said in his reply to him, he takes things at face value, which can also be a way of saying the simplest answer is best: ESPN might have an easy explanation as to why they seem to devote so much of their time taking shots, rather than simply talking ****. Power and money.

I love a dude who is worried about looking weak but uses the word hella. I hope you're from the Bay.

[Slava]

But the resentment will continue to percolate against quants like Hinkie for as long as guys like him seem to be graded on a separate curve from ex-players like Mitch Kupchak.

The Lakers investing in Kobe Bryant while they rebuild for two years actually isn’t much different from the Sixers investing in Noel and Embiid. Both teams are asking fans to believe in something that’s not really there. But one team is praised for being at the top of this list and one team is mocked for being at the bottom. If the Lakers are in better shape than the Sixers next summer, will anyone issue an apology?

Grantland

[LLcoleJ]

So last week I was sitting in traffic listening to ESPNLA ( Mason and Ireland) and they had Mitch on.

They were grilling him about the stats issue and he said a few things.

1) His first point was the writer of this article was apparently not the same guy that Mitch sat down with. He was disappointed, as the person he interviewed about the Lakers advanced stats situation was not the same guy who wrote the article. So essentially it was more or a less a second hand interview.

2) When SportsVU came out it was not that they were against using it. He said, the only way for it to be effective is if all teams are using and sharing the information. And that the Lakers were one of the teams that petitioned the league for this to happen. They certainly are not afraid of a monetary commitment.

3) They use stats have a team and are planning on expanding on that team moving forward. However, were not going to announce to the world their approach to using advanced stats.

Made a couple statements that Pat Riley and Billy Bertka were the pioneers of the +/- stats back in the 80's and certainly are not shying away from statistical uses. blah blah..

Now, I realize that the Lakers are behind in the advanced stats arms race , but based on that Mitch interview the don't seem to be " non-believers"

[Kilroy]

Maybe they aren't behind, maybe they just have a more advanced skunk works.