Los Angeles Clippers (38-21) @ Chicago Bulls 37-22)

[og15]

Did Pau not kick that?

[Ranma]

I dunno. you give any of the guys you mentioned and give the teams Phil had, most will come close and Im certain Pop would have a couple more than Jackson. MJ, Scottie, Worm, Kobe, Shaq, they are all not only HOFers, but greatests of their era. only the last two rings were won with just one top five super star in Kobe, of that time and one may argue that the peak Pau was.

I totally concur that Popovich is probably the best coach out of the whole bunch and could have done more with Phil's roster. While Doc could probably squeeze a few wins with MJ & Scottie and Shaq & Kobe, I have my doubts he would have won just as many as Phil did. Phil was able to utilize the likes of Longley, Paxson, Hodges, and Armstrong in key support roles in his Triangle offense while Doc is struggling to get Hawes going or even playing Redick in more situations over Crawford. Spoelstra took over for Riley in Miami and won championships in short order. Carlisle did it with Dirk and a supporting cast.

Doc needed Thibodeau's defense and Ainge's acquisitions of KG, Allen, and Rondo to go along with Pierce to get his lone ring. Doc loses Gentry and the Clippers immediately fall behind the rival Golden State Warriors in the standings and perceived status. Yeah, we're still the most efficient offense in the league, but defense continues to be an inconsistent trouble spot.

[Quake Griffin]

Jamal defense man.

Bulls just gonna keep feeding Snell and it's gonna work.

[Ranma]

Did I just hear the ESPN telecast say that Crawford was 2-12 (now 3-13)? Geez.

[og15]

Did I just hear the ESPN telecast say that Crawford was 2-12 (now 3-13)? Geez.

He did isolate a lot, but he's also missed some good open shots, just a tough time today for him

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/572120994145546241[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

I dunno. you give any of the guys you mentioned and give the teams Phil had, most will come close and Im certain Pop would have a couple more than Jackson. MJ, Scottie, Worm, Kobe, Shaq, they are all not only HOFers, but greatests of their era. only the last two rings were won with just one top five super star in Kobe, of that time and one may argue that the peak Pau was.

I totally concur that Popovich is probably the best coach out of the whole bunch and could have done more with Phil's roster. While Doc could probably squeeze a few wins with MJ & Scottie and Shaq & Kobe, I have my doubts he would have won just as many as Phil did. Phil was able to utilize the likes of Longley, Paxson, Hodges, and Armstrong in key support roles in his Triangle offense while Doc is struggling to get Hawes going or even playing Redick in more situations over Crawford. Spoelstra took over for Riley in Miami and won championships in short order. Carlisle did it with Dirk and a supporting cast.

Doc needed Thibodeau's defense and Ainge's acquisitions of KG, Allen, and Rondo to go along with Pierce to get his lone ring. Doc loses Gentry and the Clippers immediately fall behind the rival Golden State Warriors in the standings and perceived status. Yeah, we're still the most efficient offense in the league, but defense continues to be an inconsistent trouble spot.

Well Thibodeau left after 2010 and he still coached a top defense in Boston.
Just like Gentry left this offseason and he's still coaching a top offense.


Put Celtics' Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG on our team and let's see if Doc still needs Thibs to coach up a good defense.

[Quake Griffin]

well, thats one JC at the United Center who knows how to close out.

[Ranma]

Well Thibodeau left after 2010 and he still coached a top defense in Boston.
Just like Gentry left this offseason and he's still coaching a top offense.


Put Celtics' Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG on our team and let's see if Doc still needs Thibs to coach up a good defense.

Yet Doc wasn't able to win another ring with that cast of players. Give that team to Pop, Phil, Carlisle, Brown, or Spoelstra and I'm sure most (3 out of 5) would have done better than Doc. So Doc was able to maintain a top defense or a top offense but was not able to put it all together outside of his one championship season. Relatively speaking, I'm not that impressed, as it can certainly be argued that Doc has disappointed with what he's been given both in Boston and with the LAC.

[og15]

Well Thibodeau left after 2010 and he still coached a top defense in Boston.
Just like Gentry left this offseason and he's still coaching a top offense.


Put Celtics' Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG on our team and let's see if Doc still needs Thibs to coach up a good defense.

Yet Doc wasn't able to win another ring with that cast of players. Give that team to Pop, Phil, Carlisle, Brown, or Spoelstra and I'm sure most (3 out of 5) would have done better than Doc. So Doc was able to maintain a top defense or a top offense but was not able to put it together outside of his one championship season. Relatively speaking, I'm not that impressed, as I can certainly argue that Doc has disappointed with what he's been given both in Boston and with the LAC.

Their best chance might have been 08-09 when KG got injured and Orlando made it to the finals instead. Perkins injury didn't help in 09-10 when we consider matchups also.

Their best window was that 3 year span, but a big injury killed it one season, and considering they lost in 7 games and every little thing makes a difference, the Perkins hurt in 09-10. Can't really say he did poorly.

[Ranma]

Their best chance might have been 08-09 when KG got injured and Orlando made it to the finals instead. Perkins injury didn't help in 09-10 when we consider matchups also.

Their best window was that 3 year span, but a big injury killed it one season, and considering they lost in 7 games and every little thing makes a difference, the Perkins hurt in 09-10. Can't really say he did poorly.

That's fair but the point I'm making is that Doc's success as a coach seems so dependent on circumstances to be just right. Popovich has won with an aging roster for years while incorporating youth. Spoelstra was able to carry over Riley's success with Miami's Big 3 in short order. Carlisle won with one superstar on his roster. Brown won with a team concept without a superstar. Phil surpassed the immortal Red Auerbach.

Take any of those coach's and put them in Doc's situations in Boston and with the Clippers and, more often than not, they will have likely had more success. Take Doc and put them in their respective situations and I doubt he would be as successful as the guy he's replacing.

[Quake Griffin]

Well Thibodeau left after 2010 and he still coached a top defense in Boston.
Just like Gentry left this offseason and he's still coaching a top offense.


Put Celtics' Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and KG on our team and let's see if Doc still needs Thibs to coach up a good defense.

Yet Doc wasn't able to win another ring with that cast of players. Give that team to Pop, Phil, Carlisle, Brown, or Spoelstra and I'm sure most (3 out of 5) would have done better than Doc. So Doc was able to maintain a top defense or a top offense but was not able to put it all together outside of his one championship season. Relatively speaking, I'm not that impressed, as it can certainly be argued that Doc has disappointed with what he's been given both in Boston and with the LAC.

That's unfair…well as far as the Celtics are concerned. I can vibe with you on the Clipper-front. You and i had our own bouts over whether we should beat OKC last season before the playoffs.

2009 Garnett missed the playoffs.
2010 He loses Perk in Game 6…Kobe grabs 15 boards, Pau grabs 18. The Lakers out rebound the Celtics 53-40 in Game 7 and win by 4.

Then here comes Miami's Big 3 that summer.
34 year old Garnett
33 year old Pierce
35 year old Allen

To hold Doc accountable at a Pop level for not beating 3 top 10 players during those years is to ignore how long it took for Pop and RC Buford to find the right mix to make that old team work and neglect 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013.

[nickhx2]

not that this should be a thread for doc's shortcomings or what have you

but i've never seen ray allen miss so many open 3 pointers in my life the way he did in game 7. he even hits a couple and that's their second championship, end of story.

[Quake Griffin]

Oh I'd say having David Robinson and Sean Elliot get hurt in the 1997 season is having the circumstance just right.

[og15]

Mirotic has been great for the Bulls

[og15]

not that this should be a thread for doc's shortcomings or what have you

but i've never seen ray allen miss so many open 3 pointers in my life the way he did in game 7. he even hits a couple and that's their second championship, end of story.

Yup, that too. Coaching can only do so much, the players play the biggest part in the end. I don't think Doc did anything specifically wrong coaching wise for Boston that limited their success those three seasons

[Ranma]

That's unfair.

2009 Garnett missed the playoffs.
2010 He loses Perk in Game 6…Kobe grabs 15 boards, Pau grabs 18. The Lakers out rebound the Celtics 53-40 in Game 7 and win by 4.

Then here comes Miami's Big 3 that summer.
34 year old Garnett
33 year old Pierce
35 year old Allen

To hold Doc accountable at a Pop level for not beating 3 top 10 players during those years is to ignore how long it took for Pop and RC Buford to find the right mix to make that old team work and neglect 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013.

I acknowledge that my criticism of Doc's one championship in Boston may be unfair, however, I still maintain that Doc's success seems to be highly dependent on narrow circumstances of his own choosing (e.g. established superstar veterans). His time with the Clips, albeit limited, seems to support that. Yeah, his role as head of basketball operations is undermining his coaching but he's doing that to himself by putting together a roster he prefers, so he's entirely responsible for the circumstances and situation he is currently in.

It's not like I'm saying Doc is not a good coach. What I am saying is that he's proven to be overrated thus far in that he's not versatile enough to adjust to the circumstances he himself dealt for while the other championship coaches have shown more of that in overcoming tougher situations.

[Quake Griffin]

not that this should be a thread for doc's shortcomings or what have you

but i've never seen ray allen miss so many open 3 pointers in my life the way he did in game 7. he even hits a couple and that's their second championship, end of story.

Yup, that too. Coaching can only do so much, the players play the biggest part in the end. I don't think Doc did anything specifically wrong coaching wise for Boston that limited their success those three seasons

who knows what would have happened in 09? All speculation.

But the way they played in 2010…and even 2011 (pushing Miami to 7) leads me to believe a healthy KG in 2009 would have meant back to backs.

It's the league and injuries are just another variable in how hard it is to win.
Kobe, Duncan, Michael, Magic stayed healthy for almost all of their playoff runs.
nothing you can do and nothing you can predict.

In 2010 if someone asked you about Rose or Paul long term, it would have been smart logic to say Rose because Paul had part of his meniscus removed and Rose was younger.

You just can't predict these things.
sorry bout the tangent/ rant/ semi-going off course.

[Dynamix]

Very good effort tonight on the defensive end. Also nice to see DJ make some FT.

[thanumba2clippersfan]

Good to see that we're closing out this game. I was a little nervous earlier in the half, but CP3 and DJ restored order. Plus Butler being out for Chicago doesn't hurt us either.