Jimmy Butler could miss 3-6 wks

[musiqsoulchild]

Thats where I fault Thibs. He has openly decried the "science" behind minutes restrictions for injured players. That is so 1980's.

Agree with everything you said except this

That is not what he said or implied.. Go watch that presser again. He even says that if guys are hurt they should not be playing. He openly decries the notion that playing less minutes ,when you're healthy enough to play leads to less injuries. He's right about that.

In fact, regarding injured players, Thibs has always said we need to be patient. I think Thibs just gets frustrated when a player is cleared to play, healthy enough to play, and are skipping practice with notes from Jen and put on minutes restrictions.

This is my issue with Thibs.

If you rationally work this all the way back upto its real origins, he is directly questioning Jen Swanson's expertise on the matter of minutes management of high-risk players.

And by default, that is a direct attack on Gar Forman - his boss.

If I was Thibs, I would have left this issue completely out of the media. I would have praised the new approach that Jen is bringing and talk about all the benefits its bringing to the team.

And then have my fight on the conference call or board room with Gar and Jen. Thats how adults should figure things out --- a sit down. Anyone who has seen Soprano's knows this

Thibs hasnt handled this one component well. Everything else about him is brilliant. This one issue has made him so defensive and so sensitive that he feels the need to represent his case in public/media. Thats a mis-step in my opinion.

[johnnyvann840]

This is my issue with Thibs.

If you rationally work this all the way back upto its real origins, he is directly questioning Jen Swanson's expertise on the matter of minutes management of high-risk players.

And by default, that is a direct attack on Gar Forman - his boss.

If I was Thibs, I would have left this issue completely out of the media. I would have praised the new approach that Jen is bringing and talk about all the benefits its bringing to the team.

And then have my fight on the conference call or board room with Gar and Jen. Thats how adults should figure things out --- a sit down. Anyone who has seen Soprano's knows this

Thibs hasnt handled this one component well. Everything else about him is brilliant. This one issue has made him so defensive and so sensitive that he feels the need to represent his case in public/media. Thats a mis-step in my opinion.

Completely agree with the premise of what you're saying. However, I think the whole Thibs criticizing the minutes restrictions thing earlier in the season was kind of taken out of context in the media and ran with. Meaning there was just one single post game presser where he even uttered the words "minutes restrictions" .. It came after he was asked about the rotations. I think Thibs was more or less just frustrated at the team losing games, throwing his hands in the air and saying... "Look, we're not going to be great until everybody can practice and play, FULLY". His words were something like "Look, there are no shortcuts, buys have to play, they have to practice".. "I've got guys not practicing with notes and guys on minutes restrictions"... "To do something really special, there are no shortcuts and guys have to play"

[Rerisen]

BTW, according to Friedell it was *Gar and Pax*, not Jen, that first went to Thibs in the summer and told him, "You are not to play Jo and Derrick over 30 minutes to start the season."

And that is where they cross the line into doing Thibs job for him. They might have later codified it with Jen under the rubric of training staff opinion, but that leaves little doubt where the primary thrust is coming from.

[musiqsoulchild]

This is my issue with Thibs.

If you rationally work this all the way back upto its real origins, he is directly questioning Jen Swanson's expertise on the matter of minutes management of high-risk players.

And by default, that is a direct attack on Gar Forman - his boss.

If I was Thibs, I would have left this issue completely out of the media. I would have praised the new approach that Jen is bringing and talk about all the benefits its bringing to the team.

And then have my fight on the conference call or board room with Gar and Jen. Thats how adults should figure things out --- a sit down. Anyone who has seen Soprano's knows this

Thibs hasnt handled this one component well. Everything else about him is brilliant. This one issue has made him so defensive and so sensitive that he feels the need to represent his case in public/media. Thats a mis-step in my opinion.

Completely agree with the premise of what you're saying. However, I think the whole Thibs criticizing the minutes restrictions thing earlier in the season was kind of taken out of context in the media and ran with. Meaning there was just one single post game presser where he even uttered the words "minutes restrictions" .. It came after he was asked about the rotations. I think Thibs was more or less just frustrated at the team losing games, throwing his hands in the air and saying... "Look, we're not going to be great until everybody can practice and play, FULLY". His words were something like "Look, there are no shortcuts, buys have to play, they have to practice".. "I've got guys not practicing with notes and guys on minutes restrictions"... "To do something really special, there are no shortcuts and guys have to play"

And if that is the extent of it, then Gar will see it that way and the relationship will stand through the off-season.

Results in the playoffs, being the big variable of course.

The JVG thing is what really added a lot of sulphur into the situation. Other than that, I think the number of head-turning comments from Thibs or Gar have been few and far in between.

[musiqsoulchild]

BTW, according to Friedell it was *Gar and Pax*, not Jen, that first went to Thibs in the summer and told him, "You are not to play Jo and Derrick over 30 minutes to start the season."

And that is where they cross the line into doing Thibs job for him. They might have later codified it with Jen under the rubric of training staff opinion, but that leaves little doubt where the primary thrust is coming from.

Jen Swanson vs. Tom Thibodeau. That is not a fair fight. One is a newcomer to the NBA world and the other is an NBA old-timer.

I can see why Gar + Pax carried the message on Jen's behalf.

Gar has a meeting with Jen and gets the minutes data and presentation from her. Passes on the message to Thibs in a different meeting.

Maybe that is the issue...that this wasnt done by consensus, but rather by organizational will. If that is the case, not a good look for John or Gar.

[Rerisen]

BTW, according to Friedell it was *Gar and Pax*, not Jen, that first went to Thibs in the summer and told him, "You are not to play Jo and Derrick over 30 minutes to start the season."

And that is where they cross the line into doing Thibs job for him. They might have later codified it with Jen under the rubric of training staff opinion, but that leaves little doubt where the primary thrust is coming from.

Jen Swanson vs. Tom Thibodeau.

I can see why Gar + Pax carried the message on Jen's behalf.

Gar has a meeting with Jen and gets the minutes data and presentation from her. Passes on the message to Thibs in a different meeting.

Maybe that is the issue...that this wasnt done by consensus, but rather by organizational will. If that is the case, not a good look for John or Gar.

I don't think its Jen vs Tom, I think its clearly the FO vs Tom.

Tanaka was the head trainer and he had no problem with Thibs minutes. So a figure was hired above him more in tune with Gar and Pax.

Jen agrees with the FO and that is no doubt part of the reason she was brought in, but it was their wish before Jen got here that Tom ease up on player minutes. And that is no new thing, it goes back to Pax threatening Vinny for playing Noah longer than they wanted him to.

It really looks like FO is antsy to blame the coach for the roster's injury problems, when there is no one to blame, but random chance, bad luck, and also, they aren't making it any better by signing and bringing back older players like Kirk and Gasol.

It was very clear on the radio Pax was advocating *his own* opinions about Kirk Hinrich not playing too much when he was talking about Kirk's minute limit. The POV was not, "This is what Jen or the staff thinks, so we should follow it." It was what Paxson thought should happen.

Maybe when Hoiberg gets here, they think the perfect championship roster they've built will start fulfilling its potential with Tom out of the way and no longer ruining their genius with his minute allocations. Then hubris will likely meet reality.

[musiqsoulchild]

BTW, according to Friedell it was *Gar and Pax*, not Jen, that first went to Thibs in the summer and told him, "You are not to play Jo and Derrick over 30 minutes to start the season."

And that is where they cross the line into doing Thibs job for him. They might have later codified it with Jen under the rubric of training staff opinion, but that leaves little doubt where the primary thrust is coming from.

Jen Swanson vs. Tom Thibodeau.

I can see why Gar + Pax carried the message on Jen's behalf.

Gar has a meeting with Jen and gets the minutes data and presentation from her. Passes on the message to Thibs in a different meeting.

Maybe that is the issue...that this wasnt done by consensus, but rather by organizational will. If that is the case, not a good look for John or Gar.

I don't think its Jen vs Tom, I think its clearly the FO vs Tom.

Tanaka was the head trainer and he had no problem with Thibs minutes. So a figure was hired above him more in tune with Gar and Pax.

Jen agrees with the FO and that is no doubt part of the reason she was brought in, but it was their wish before Jen got here that Tom ease up on player minutes. And that is no new thing, it goes back to Pax threatening Vinny for playing Noah longer than they wanted him to.

It really looks like FO is antsy to blame the coach for the roster's injury problems, when there is no one to blame, but random chance, bad luck, and also, they aren't making it any better by signing and bringing back older players like Kirk and Gasol.

It was very clear on the radio Pax was advocating *his own* opinions about Kirk Hinrich not playing too much when he was talking about Kirk's minute limit. The POV was not, "This is what Jen or the staff thinks, so we should follow it." It was what Paxson thought should happen.

Maybe when Hoiberg gets here, they think the perfect championship roster they've built will start fulfilling its potential with Tom out of the way and no longer ruining their genius with his minute allocations. Then hubris will likely meet reality.

Sorry Re...my post was incomplete. I just made an edit.

Agree with most things you said by the way.

[Mech Engineer]

Pax will be running a factory operation with his new coach. Players play 20 minutes max with 5 minute shifts and they will all be healthy.

There is no wonder they don't believe in analytics or have no tax payments because they are busy developing the next generation minute management coaching robot which magically gives minutes to rookies and pulls out the player after 5 minutes.

[BullsInBuffalo]

Jimmy Butler, age 25
Nikola Mirotic, age 24
Derrick Rose, age 26
Tony Snell, age 23
Doug McDermott, age 23
Taj Gibson, age 29
Joakim Noah, age 30

How is the contending window just about closed?

The Bulls can't count on Rose anymore, unfortunately. Seriously- its been 4 years in a row now.
Taj and Niko play the same position, I'm guessing Taj will be traded this offseason.
Noah is not playing at an elite level.

That leaves-
Niko- 24
Snell- 23
Butler- 25
McDermott- 23

We don't even know what McDermott can do, he's getting DNP'd. At any rate, you need multiple super stars to win a title. While I hope the Bulls can parlay Taj, Pau, or Noah and picks into the center of the future (i.e. Cauley-Stein) that squad isn't a contender- at least not yet. They should be a solid playoff team and hopefully trending upward. But they're at least a few years away from being a legit contender.

The contending window is closed. It may reopen with a bunch of guys currently on the roster but FFS- Niko, Snell, and McDermott aren't leading a team to a title this year or next.

You can't count on Rose anymore?

Is that Stephen A "jump the gun" Smith talking?

Rose is going to miss a month, its not a huge injury.

I absolutely think this core can win a title in the future.

[Ctownbulls]

^ Lol - count on Rose. Come on man. How can you realistically count on this guy. I want him to succeed as much as anyone but no way you can go into the offseason and build a team with the notion that Rose will be healthy or close to what he use to be.

[ingvald]

You can't count on Rose anymore?

I'm still hopeful that Rose will be back and as good as ever. But for the sake of this discussion, I think the Bulls can't count on him long-term. I really hope I'm wrong and I may have a more pessimistic outlook than others. I understand the nature of this injury in comparison to the others. But for me, right now, I don't think you can count on him to be part of that championship core.

[Ralphb07]

Paxson had restrictions on two players coming back from KNEE SURGERY. It's not like he said no player could go over 30.

Rose had an unfortunate setback that was from the surgery, so we can't know the end results.

Noah on the other hand didn't have a failure in surgery and we're now seeing him in March when he usually breaks down, looking extremely healthy and playing his best. If Noah doesn't get hurt and is playing great April and May basketball, it shows it was the right call.

Gibson has been injured every season and this year is no surprise. He's been playing on a bum ankle all year and Thibs calls him a warrior. But what good is that warrior if come playoffs he is ran to the ground.

Butler has had nagging injures all year and hasn't gotten a break. A true warrior as well. Why don't you reward these warriors with recovery time on off days and dip into the bench during the regular season. I want to be nba Champs blot regular season champs.

This is the problem. The Bulls built a bench to stop this but Thibs keeps it going. We see from Nikola who might be better than Gibson, but when Gibson plays gets all the backup minutes while Thibs plays Nikola out of position. How is that smart?

[BullsInBuffalo]

^ Lol - count on Rose. Come on man. How can you realistically count on this guy. I want him to succeed as much as anyone but no way you can go into the offseason and build a team with the notion that Rose will be healthy or close to what he use to be.

^ Lol

When did I say build the team around him? I'm just saying that this injury should have nothing to do with if you can, or cannot count on Rose short term.

Hell no I wouldn't count on Derrick long term.

[BullsInBuffalo]

You can't count on Rose anymore?

I'm still hopeful that Rose will be back and as good as ever. But for the sake of this discussion, I think the Bulls can't count on him long-term. I really hope I'm wrong and I may have a more pessimistic outlook than others. I understand the nature of this injury in comparison to the others. But for me, right now, I don't think you can count on him to be part of that championship core.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that you can't count on him, but i don't agree with your championship core comment. If he's on the floor, he can go off any night.

He has to get his mind right though, and find a way to stay healthy, and this is why I wouldn't count on him long term.

[ingvald]

You can't count on Rose anymore?

I'm still hopeful that Rose will be back and as good as ever. But for the sake of this discussion, I think the Bulls can't count on him long-term. I really hope I'm wrong and I may have a more pessimistic outlook than others. I understand the nature of this injury in comparison to the others. But for me, right now, I don't think you can count on him to be part of that championship core.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that you can't count on him, but i don't agree with your championship core comment. If he's on the floor, he can go off any night.

He has to get his mind right though, and find a way to stay healthy, and this is why I wouldn't count on him long term.

So you agree with my statement but questioned why I made it?