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Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#81 » by LyricalRico » Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:37 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.


IIRC the problem with signing Beal to even a sub-max extension in 2015 is that number will still be higher than his scheduled 2016 cap hold - which then eats into our available space to sign Durant. My understanding is that "KD to DC" only works if we don't re-sign Beal until after we sign Durant.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#82 » by rockymac52 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 10:42 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.


IIRC the problem with signing Beal to even a sub-max extension in 2015 is that number will still be higher than his scheduled 2016 cap hold - which then eats into our available space to sign Durant. My understanding is that "KD to DC" only works if we don't re-sign Beal until after we sign Durant.


Can't really say that KD to DC wouldn't work if we extended Beal ahead of time, because there's always a way to make the numbers work, and for a guy like KD, we will absolutely do that if needed. However, I get what you're saying.

Extending Beal ahead of time makes no sense. Like you said, his cap hold is roughly $11.5M. It would likely be worth locking him into a bargain deal ($11-12M/yr) even if that decreases our 2016 cap space by a couple million, since that deal is likely a great value (if you have faith in Beal still developing into a legit max contract star). Essentially that's Steph Curry's current deal. That would prove to be invaluable going forward if he develops. And especially considering that even if he doesn't develop into a star, we're certainly going to match any offers he gets as a RFA, which will be the max, so we'd still be saving us a few million a year even if he doesn't pan out.

But his agent would never sign that extension. He knows that same deal will be available in the summer, from the Wizards or almost any other team. Furthermore, he realistically knows there will be AT LEAST one max offer available that summer, regardless of if the Wizards match. Young two-way SGs who can shoot lights out are going to get paid, even if it's still just on potential. Beal would have to suffer serious injuries (more serious than any of his minor stress injuries so far) for him to not be able to get a max deal.

Beal also won't have the added benefit of a 5th year by extending, since Wall is already our team's ONE AND ONLY ALLOWED designated player. All Beal gets by extending is serious injury insurance, in which case he'd probably still get decently sized offers following the injury in the cap spike year. AND he gets 7.5% raises instead of 4.5% raises, which is significant, but not a HUGE difference.

That's why it makes sense for us to wait until he's a RFA that summer. His cap hold is likely lower than his eventual max salary. And even if he signs an offer sheet with another team before we can sign KD, at least then he's only getting 4.5% raises instead of 7.5%. Again, not a huge difference, but still a significant one.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#83 » by stevemcqueen1 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 10:44 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.


IIRC the problem with signing Beal to even a sub-max extension in 2015 is that number will still be higher than his scheduled 2016 cap hold - which then eats into our available space to sign Durant. My understanding is that "KD to DC" only works if we don't re-sign Beal until after we sign Durant.


Under the calculations of our cap commitments for '16 and with a projected cap of 91 million that summer, I came up with about 5 million in extra cap space if we waive Webster and Blair. That's a 30% max contract + 5 million in space. I could be wrong about some of the cap hold numbers, it'd be helpful if somebody else could check over some of my assumptions. I assumed .4 million per min contract hold. And I assumed 1.3 million per draft pick hold. And I couldn't find much information about Humphries's contract, so I used a 4.6 million number I found on basketball-reference. I'm also not totally clear on the process of renouncing exceptions like the MLE.

My thinking was we should use some of that 5 million to pay Beal a year early. His cap hold is 11.4, so we should be able to afford to sign him early. Based on the way they've played this season, I can't really think of any reason we wouldn't waive Webster and Blair, even if we weren't trying to cut salary for Durant.

Another way we could save money is by drafting Euro stashes, which in my projections would save an extra 2.6 million.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#84 » by rockymac52 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 11:16 pm

Where are you getting this 91 million number? I have yet to see that...
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#85 » by nate33 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 11:36 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.

If Beal projects to cost anywhere near $14M or higher, then we should immediately look to trade him now. Trade Beal for Noel and then try and sign a guy like Danny Green or Aaron Afflalo this summer for $8M a year.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#86 » by Ruzious » Tue Mar 3, 2015 11:56 pm

nate33 wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.

If Beal projects to cost anywhere near $14M or higher, then we should immediately look to trade him now. Trade Beal for Noel and then try and sign a guy like Danny Green or Aaron Afflalo this summer for $8M a year.

Now you're talking. And Philly has Miami's 1st rounder - which should be right around mid 1st. Expand the trade to include that. Drafting about 15 and 20 in this quality draft, adding Noel, and adding a Danny Green - I'd be excited.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#87 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 5:22 am

nate33 wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.

If Beal projects to cost anywhere near $14M or higher, then we should immediately look to trade him now. Trade Beal for Noel and then try and sign a guy like Danny Green or Aaron Afflalo this summer for $8M a year.


If Beal ends up being a perennial AS, that move is a franchise killer.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#88 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 5:35 am

Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.

If Beal projects to cost anywhere near $14M or higher, then we should immediately look to trade him now. Trade Beal for Noel and then try and sign a guy like Danny Green or Aaron Afflalo this summer for $8M a year.

Now you're talking. And Philly has Miami's 1st rounder - which should be right around mid 1st. Expand the trade to include that. Drafting about 15 and 20 in this quality draft, adding Noel, and adding a Danny Green - I'd be excited.


I wouldn't be. Depends on what you project Beal to be I guess. I think he's an AS and one of the best shooters in the league at age 23 and I think the league as a whole would probably agree with that projection. You never trade paper for coins if you don't have to. Trading a foundation player for forty cents on the dollar just to avoid paying him what would eventually be a way below market deal would be a disaster.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#89 » by Ruzious » Wed Mar 4, 2015 2:45 pm

Steve, you know by now I think you (and I'm hoping opposing GM's agree with you) are putting way to many eggs in the Beal basket. He simply hasn't done enough to make assumptions that he's going to be what you assume he will be.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#90 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:34 pm

nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:Isaiah Thomas

Player of the week

-_-


:banghead:

If the cap really jumps to $90-95M rather than the $80M that was originally estimated, then Thomas' contract looks better and better. Heck, the MLE will probably jump to about $8M a year, so Thomas is being paid well less than an MLE contract.

I'm starting to think that the best move might be to trade for guys already under contract rather than gear up for 2016 free agency. There's going to be a TON of money chasing after a limited pool of players.

Yup -- and IT in particular was an incredible bargain, as many of us pointed out. Would have been a *great* pick up.

Now... it may be that he wouldn't have been able to work w/ the @15 minutes no more that would have been available behind Wall. At 5'10" he wasn't finding any minutes at the 2. So his agent may have put together the deal for him.

In general, however, you bet -- any good young (or even young-ish) player under a multi-year contract is going to look like an incredible bargain in a year or so. Too bad we don't have any of those, huh? :roll:
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#91 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:37 pm

AFM wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:From the update I'm HOPING to get up today.

Andre Miller's PPA so far in Sacramento: 91.

Ramon Sessions' PPA so far with Wizards: 14.

Miller with the Wizards: 80.

Sessions with the Kings: 16.


You know, no one could have predicted this

Not to mention that statistics are meaningless. Sessions helps us "try harder." You know... the way a dull knife makes you have to push down harder to slice the onion (the one that makes you cry if you're a Wizards fan I mean)?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#92 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:41 pm

Ruzious wrote:Steve, you know by now I think you (and I'm hoping opposing GM's agree with you) are putting way to many eggs in the Beal basket. He simply hasn't done enough to make assumptions that he's going to be what you assume he will be.

I love Beal, but I have to agree.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#93 » by TGW » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:45 pm

Beal for Noel is a tough one. Beal is frustrating to watch...putting him and "All-Star" in the same sentence...c'mon son. He's not close.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#94 » by Dat2U » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:50 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:That's the good news. The bad news is that Beal is going to be so much more expensive if we have to sign him next summer instead of this summer. Beal is really the 4th RFA in that class after Davis, Lillard, and Drummond, and I bet all of them negotiate max deals early. There is going to be way too much cap space floating around that summer. Someone is going to force us to match a max or near max contract offer for him.

We need to use his injury history as leverage to sign him for a sub max deal this summer. I'd sign him without hesitation if I could get him at 11 or 12 million, but I'd go as high as 14 million to make sure the deal got done. Beal at 14 million a year hurts to think about now, but it's a lot better than Beal at 20 - 22 million a year plus annual raises if we wait until 2016. Under a 91 million dollar cap, we'll have about 5 million in extra space in 2016 if we waive Webster and Blair. We should use that money to pay for Beal's early extension.

If Beal projects to cost anywhere near $14M or higher, then we should immediately look to trade him now. Trade Beal for Noel and then try and sign a guy like Danny Green or Aaron Afflalo this summer for $8M a year.


If Beal ends up being a perennial AS, that move is a franchise killer.


Actually drafting Porter over Noel may turn out to be our true franchise killer. But regarding Beal... I'm confident he's not getting to elite player status unless there's a different coach & different system....AND until he cleans up his form off the dribble which he has done yet in his 2+ years thus far.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#95 » by nate33 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:52 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:I wouldn't be. Depends on what you project Beal to be I guess. I think he's an AS and one of the best shooters in the league at age 23 and I think the league as a whole would probably agree with that projection. You never trade paper for coins if you don't have to. Trading a foundation player for forty cents on the dollar just to avoid paying him what would eventually be a way below market deal would be a disaster.

He is not one of the best shooters in the league. He is one of the better three point shooters in the league if he has the spacing to get his shot off, but it's not like he has a deadly quick release that scares defenses a la Korver, Curry or Thompson. He does nothing else at a better than an average level. His ball handling is below average. It would be horrible if he got paid $14M a year unless he improves dramatically. Right now he is no better than an average starter at his position.

I recognize that he is only 21 and is likely to improve somewhat, but I'm growing more and more dubious that he will be anything more than a 17ppg .560 TS% type of player - equivalent to maybe Hersey Hawkins. Honestly, is he really any better than a guy like Jodie Meeks? Do you pay Jodie Meeks $14M?

I'm not trying to bash Beal. I think he's a solid player and a legit starter in this league. That's a good thing. I just question the conventional wisdom that he is some kind of budding star. Other than the incredible 2nd half of his rookie season (of only about 20 games before injuries set in), I've seen little indication that he'll be anything more than an average starter. If his trade value is still sky high, we need to seriously consider cashing in on that value now.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#96 » by TheSecretWeapon » Wed Mar 4, 2015 4:56 pm

payitforward wrote:
AFM wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:From the update I'm HOPING to get up today.

Andre Miller's PPA so far in Sacramento: 91.

Ramon Sessions' PPA so far with Wizards: 14.

Miller with the Wizards: 80.

Sessions with the Kings: 16.


You know, no one could have predicted this

Not to mention that statistics are meaningless. Sessions helps us "try harder." You know... the way a dull knife makes you have to push down harder to slice the onion (the one that makes you cry if you're a Wizards fan I mean)?


When I heard Grunfeld talking about Sessions being faster and able to provide some "pop" to the second unit, I wanted to throw my coffee mug through the Internet so that it would smash on Grunfeld's desk.

Pace is meaningless. It doesn't matter how fast a team plays, it matters how efficiently they use possessions.

And, oh yeah by the way, the Kings with Andre Miller on the floor are playing at a blazing fast 98.2 possessions per 48 minutes -- 6.4 possessions per 48 faster than they did when Sessions was on the floor, 11.9 possessions per 48 than the Wizards played with Miller, and 4.4 possessions faster than the Wizards have played with Sessions on the floor.

If only the trade deadline hadn't passed, maybe they could trade Sessions for Miller so they could play at a faster pace and get some "pop" for the second unit.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#97 » by nate33 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 5:01 pm

There is no question that Miller has been and will continue to put up better individual numbers than Sessions. But I'm not quite so convinced that it follows that Miller was better for the Wizards' 2nd unit than Sessions will be once he gets his bearings. Miller was great with post ups early in the season, but he didn't do much else to make things easier on his teammates. By the middle of the season, he stopped posting up so he really did nothing to make life easier on his teammates and it showed.

Sessions has been horrible too, but at least his ability to get into the lane could theoretically help his teammates. We'll have to see if they (and Wittman) adjust to his skill set.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#98 » by rockymac52 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 6:28 pm

Trading Beal for anything other than an established star would be a huge mistake. It's only his third season, and while he's not nearly as efficient overall as you would like him to be, you can see how much talent he has, and I'd expect him to break out similar to Butler and Klay this year in the next 2 years or so. Beal's going to be a top 5 SG for years to come.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#99 » by Ruzious » Wed Mar 4, 2015 7:34 pm

rockymac52 wrote:Trading Beal for anything other than an established star would be a huge mistake. It's only his third season, and while he's not nearly as efficient overall as you would like him to be, you can see how much talent he has, and I'd expect him to break out similar to Butler and Klay this year in the next 2 years or so. Beal's going to be a top 5 SG for years to come.

Even if he does develop into an all-star, why not get someone who is essentially the Beal of bigs?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX 

Post#100 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Mar 4, 2015 7:38 pm

Ruzious wrote:Steve, you know by now I think you (and I'm hoping opposing GM's agree with you) are putting way to many eggs in the Beal basket. He simply hasn't done enough to make assumptions that he's going to be what you assume he will be.


I think jumping ship on Beal is being very short sighted. Golden State made a lot of people doubt them when they gave Steph Curry his extension despite his ankle issues. When they refused to trade Klay Thompson for Love and then gave him a 70 million dollar extension, people killed them. Said he wasn't worth it and they weren't going to be able to get over the hump to contention. Well, now he's an All Star and they're one of the best teams in the league. GS chased Dwight Howard and struck out. But they're an elite team, even better than Houston for that matter, because they had drafted a foundational back court and they committed to building around them. And it worked.

Our foundation is Wall and Beal, you all do realize that right? There really is no better alternative to committing to building around those two and waiting for them to fully develop.

Anyway I had rock solid confidence in Wall from day one and he's rewarded that. I'm similarly confident in Beal. He's going to be an All Star by 23, 24 at the latest. Wings not named LeBron James and Kevin Durant take time. And the nature of the position and NBA offense has changed and Beal is a prototype.

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