LeBron James vs. Dwight Howard (peak only)

[PaulieWal]

How does it reinforce your claim? They play 2 different positions and weren't guarded by each other. The Cavs didn't lose because LeBron underperformed, they lost because Howard played well and his 3 point shooters were even better (40% vs. 32%).

Really? After two games, the series was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

Go look at this complete box scores. This is incomplete information and a bad attempt at making your point.

[Jim Naismith]

How does it reinforce your claim? They play 2 different positions and weren't guarded by each other. The Cavs didn't lose because LeBron underperformed, they lost because Howard played well and his 3 point shooters were even better (40% vs. 32%).

Really? After two games, the series was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

Go look at this complete box scores. This is incomplete information and a bad attempt at making your point.

I looked further. In two of those games, LeBron was 1 of 8 and 2 of 8 from three.

The Cavs lost both games by double digits.

[te887848]

When Howard can prove to be 70% as good as 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014 LeBron, then this might be a more appropriate comparison. Until then, LeBron by a landslide.

What happened to 2011? So you admit 2011 Dwight > 2011 LeBron .

2011 LeBron is still prime LeBron, so this comparison is not as far-fetched as you make it out to be.

Let's look at RAPM for these two players:

2008 LeBron 8.2
2008 Dwight 7.4

2009 LeBron 11.3
2009 Dwight 8.1

2010 LeBron 11.9
2010 Dwight 9.5

2011 LeBron 8.1
2011 Dwight 9.7

2012 LeBron 9.5
2012 Dwight 8.8

LeBron is clearly better but to say there is a huge gap is an exaggeration.

Not at all. Just forgot to mention 2011. Any version of Dwight absolutely sucks compared to post-rookie LeBron.

Guys who are comparable to peak LeBron - Jordan imo is the only one who is at least as good. Dwight is just an ordinary all-star at best.

[PaulieWal]

Really? After two games, the series was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

Go look at this complete box scores. This is incomplete information and a bad attempt at making your point.

I looked further. In two of those games, LeBron was 1 of 8 and 2 of 8 from three.

The Cavs lost both games by double digits.

That's not looking at the complete box score, first of all. Secondly, two games of shooting poorly from the 3 still doesn't make Howard close to 09 LeBron since that's your main point but keep on trying.

[spearsy23]

Really? After two games, the series was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

Go look at this complete box scores. This is incomplete information and a bad attempt at making your point.

I looked further. In two of those games, LeBron was 1 of 8 and 2 of 8 from three.

The Cavs lost both games by double digits.

Dwight fouled out of three games. Wasn't even on the court for the game winner in game 1, missed the last two minutes of game 5 and missed 5 free-throws while shooting 3/8 in their one point loss in game 2. When you ignore every good thing a player did it's really easy to make it seem like they played poorly.

[Jim Naismith]

That's not looking at the complete box score, first of all. Secondly, two games of shooting poorly from the 3 still doesn't make Howard close to 09 LeBron since that's your main point but keep on trying.

So you already concede:

1) LeBron's poor shooting was in part to blame for Cleveland's playoff elimination

2) Dwight's good performance helped underdog Orlando defeat Cleveland.

These two points lead to my main point that the gap between the two is smaller than most people presume.

[PaulieWal]

That's not looking at the complete box score, first of all. Secondly, two games of shooting poorly from the 3 still doesn't make Howard close to 09 LeBron since that's your main point but keep on trying.

So you already concede:

1) LeBron's poor shooting was in part to blame for Cleveland's playoff elimination

2) Dwight's good performance helped underdog Orlando defeat Cleveland.

These two points lead to my main point that the gap between the two is smaller than most people presume.

I'll just leave this here:

Dwight fouled out of three games. Wasn't even on the court for the game winner in game 1, missed the last two minutes of game 5 and missed 5 free-throws while shooting 3/8 in their one point loss in game 2. When you ignore every good thing a player did it's really easy to make it seem like they played poorly.

Anyone that thinks that LeBron was partly to blame for Cleveland's playoff elimination in 09 views the game completely different than I do and you still have no leg to stand on, spearsy covered it beautifully.

[chrispak98]

We understand, you hate LeBron. Good for you

[Jim Naismith]

Anyone that thinks that LeBron was partly to blame for Cleveland's playoff elimination in 09 views the game completely different than I do

So you think LeBron is 100% blameless for the Cavs' elimination despite going 7-for-28 from three?

Especially when his two worst shooting games coincide with double-digit Cav losses.

[spearsy23]

This has just become absurd.

[Jim Naismith]

Dwight missed 5 free-throws while shooting 3/8 in their one point loss in game 2.

Dwight shot 70% (!) from the line in that series, so he minimized his worst flaw.

[JordansBulls]

Well in 2009 Dwight did beat peak Lebron all while Dwight had an inferior team and the worst backcourt all time in NBA history to start in the Conference finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee.

[Jim Naismith]

Well in 2009 Dwight did beat peak Lebron all while Dwight had an inferior team and the worst backcourt all time in NBA history to start in the Conference finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee.

It really needs to be pointed out that no one picked the Magic to win:
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

Orlando was unanimously considered the inferior team.

This series was probably Dwight's finest achievement.

[colts18]

Are we going to pretend that Howard playing like **** offensively against the Lakers? 1-6 FG in Game 1, 5-12 in Game 4? If you take out his 2 best games, he shot 39.8 FG%

[GYK]

of course you take Lebron but on one star teams I like my chances with Dwight.
Top defense that season and you need to find shooting.

[Greatness]

I think the better comparison is Lebron James vs. Rashard Lewis (peak only). Could go either way.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

This thread is like an exercise in logical fallacies, let it die!

[Jim Naismith]

Dwight had the worst backcourt all time in NBA history to start in the Conference finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee.

I forgot: Jameer Nelson was injured that series.