Let's talk about the 2011 Finals

[Dr Spaceman]

*Takes deep breath*

Okay, it's been almost 4 years. It might be a pipe dream, but I want to have an intelligent discussion on LeBron James in the 2011 Finals. I know I'm opening myself up to all kinds of issues, but if you're the type of person who's going to do that stuff please stay out of this thread. Further, if you are a regular here please ignore any baiting and just talk about basketball. And finally, please read the entire OP before you respond, so that we're all on the same page for this discussion.

And please, please please keep the discussion focused on what happened basketball wise, I'm not interested in discussing "choking" or any other narrative.

With that out of the way, I've been watching film on the 2011 Finals for a project I'm currently working on, and as a side task I've been collecting data on James' performance in these Finals. I think Miami had severe systemic issues in 2011, many of which had nothing to do with James, and I want to share some things I've been picking up. I want to make clear that he's not blameless, and certainly played very poorly by his standards, BUT I want to have a discourse on this, because it's always the elephant in the room in this discussion and I want to know where this board stands on the issues.

So, a few things I want to discuss:
1. What issues are directly related to LeBron? (I'm talking basketball things, not mental things)
2. What issues are directly related to Erik Spoelstra/team strategy?
3. What issues are a direct function of team construction and were not fixable? (ie. the decision to go to small ball may have changed their entire course of history in 2012)

(Right now, all notes and observations are from Game 2)

The first thing I want to say is LeBron straight away looks active and disruptive on defense. He's honestly kind of a force, and his ability to force turnovers was the direct catalyst for Miami's run to take a big lead in the 4th quarter. He did a very good job checking Marion, got caught sleeping at times but he was trying hard not to foul and his offensive responsibilities were pretty huge. And his defense on Terry was actually pretty reminiscent of the famous Rose series, totally shut him off in the possessions I kept track of. But the turnovers are a big deal, because it's the one fourth quarter Miami looked good in this series and it's directly because LeBron was wreaking havoc in the passing lanes and Wade was taking off sprinting down the floor when it happened. As soon as that dried up and Dallas got less careless, the Hat couldn't score in the half court and Dallas mounted their comeback.

So defensively the Mavericks tried some bizarre strategies in this series that totally flabbergasted all the Heat players. Their weird full-court pressure thing literally caused Jeff Van Gundy to ask "What is Terry doing??" to which Breen and Jackson laughed and said nothing. It was strange. Dallas would have their guards run hard at Miami's point guard, force James to bring the ball up, and then drop back into coverage. Look at this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfHycN4tRw&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

This is one of those things that was just crazy enough to work. It's clear from the jump that Miami's gameplan was to work LeBron off the ball and get him and Wade post touches galore. Wade still got into the post whenever he wanted, but the Mavs literally forced James to bring the ball up every possession he was on the floor and it totally disrupted Miami's sets. You could actually see them changing play calls and miscommunicating.

Here's an even more egregious example, where Kidd won't even let Bibby touch the ball:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oQO5JAr1gE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

By the time James gets it up court, there are 18 seconds on the shot clock and the ball is on the wrong side of the floor. Look where Bosh and a teammate are standing on the left block; they were setting a screen for someone to come around to the right half of the floor, and now that play is completely dead. I don't know what Carlisle was seeing on film that caused him to pull this strategy, but holy *** was it a stroke of genius. Miami made not adjustment to counter, and it continued to bother them all throughout the game. Sometimes I wonder if Miami even practiced in 2011.

Now more conventionally, Dallas became singularly fixated on preventing James from catching the ball where he wants. Marion was tremendous at this, using his strength to bump LeBron farther and farther from the basket until he would be in post up position almost near the 3 point line. Dallas also had a habit of swarming James pretty much anywhere inside the arc without regard for anyone else:

Spoiler:

And sometimes even outside the arc:

Spoiler:

Part of this is Miami's lack of creativity, but also part is Dallas being smart about switching and rotating, and sending decoys to stop penetration. Dallas had a wonderful ability to force James to go all the way out to half court to catch the ball:

Spoiler:

Now we all know the fundamental issues with Miami's roster; namely that it was unbalanced and top heavy. But it seems like nobody told Spoelstra the value of shooting because he often insisted on lineups with Haslem/Anthony even with the James/Wade pairing. Spot figured this out later in his career but this actually killed Miami during this series. Watch Dallas basically not bother to cover anyone one a Lebron iso and force him into a tough shot:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX0BLNfd_ck&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

This is exactly the type of play they killed the league with from 2012 on but in 2011 they didn't have anywhere near enough shooting to actually scare people.

Miami also had severe problems with a general lack of creativity/motion, and the offense really stagnated as a result. I honestly believe if they had but James in better positions he would have played much better. I counted exactly on play in the entire game where Miami sent more than one screener for James and this is what happened:

Spoiler:

Again, the only misdirection play they ran all game resulted in a wide open dunk for LeBron. Are you kidding me?

All of these issues compounded for a disastrous result come 4th quarter half-court possessions. This is one of the most brutal offensive sequences I think I've ever witnessed:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFXMw2iMgNE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

This play breaks all of the rules of offensive basketball. No screens, lazy movement, nobody who doesn't have the ball even moves. You have two "floor spacers" standing inside the arc. I mean, are you kidding me? How can you blame LeBron for forcing a bailout shot in this situation? Also note the hard show by terry and the awesome switch by Marion; Dallas was a really underrated defensive team.

Now I want to make clear I'm not absolving Bron for this series. He has to play better, and a lot of the ways Miami improved were directly related to James' own improvements. His passing was lazy and noncommittal in this series, nothing like the bullets that became Miami's staples in subsequent years. And he definitely lacked agrressiveness at times, whether due to Dallas' scheme or his own issues I don't know. He shot awfully, and was dreadful particularly from the line.

But all the same, there were bigger systemic issues going on hear and I don't know that LeBron deserves a fraction of the negativity he receives for this. As is clearly evident, it's not just talent that wins, you have to fit and work as a team, and Miami didn't so that. It also doesn't help that Carlisle completely undressed Spoelstra, and his wizardry gives Dallas something that nobody else really has.

Anyway, I hope to see some good discussion, and let me know what you all think.

[PaulieWal]

This is an incredible thread and firstly I wanna appreciate the amount of work you have clearly put into this post. I don't think I have seen many people here breakdown a game like that with plays and video and then write an analysis of the play.

Somethings I will say:

- It is clear that Spo did not show the same amount of concern for spacing as he did in 12, 13, and 14.
- Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby were getting minutes they had no business getting and that completely messed up Miami's offense as Dallas shifted their entire defense towards Wade and LeBron.
- I am still not exactly sure why LeBron became so passive and I won't go into Skip Baylessian analysis as you requested but I am trying to compare in my mind how the Celts played him in 10 and how Dallas played him. I remember Celts used to do the overload the strong side against him but I don't think he saw as many zones as he did against Dallas in 11. My point is that this was probably the first time of him seeing this many zone coverages at this level, I might be wrong but I will need to re-watch some of those games against Boston before 2011 at some point.
- You raised a great point about Dallas taking away the fast-break points from Miami and I think 11 LeBron was a poor off the ball player.
- One point you raised about "Heat even practice?"....the answer to that is that they mostly practiced defense only. Spo said that in 11 their only focus was on defense and they figured that the Big 3 would figure it out more on the offensive end.
- It also appreciates me what Wade did a bit more. One thing I hope people remember is that if you look at some of his highlights from that series the Mavs were also sending double and triple teams towards him after they would neutralize LeBron on the perimter.
- One thing that I am sure you looked into is that LeBron's 3 point shot deserted him in this series. Against the Bulls and Celts he was hitting the 3 at a 44% clip against the Celts, 39% against the Bulls and only 32% against Dallas which is why he struggled so much because he could not get to the rim.


These are my initial thoughts but I will look to add more as the thread progresses.

PS. Cuban has since talked about how much they relied on "analytics" to study the sweet spots of LeBron/Wade and drive them away from those spots. He said that was very instrumental in making LeBron uncomfortable FWIW.

[Dr Spaceman]

- One point you raised about "Heat even practice?"....the answer to that is that they mostly practiced defense only. Spo said that in 11 their only focus was on defense and they figured that the Big 3 would figure it out more on the offensive end.

This is absolutely crazy to me. And you can actually see it on the court. A lot of times these guys just look uncomfortable out there, and there's so little motion or communication. There were even a couple of times where passes were bobbled because guys just didn't know it was coming. If this is true, honestly it's hard to believe the team even made it that far in the first place.

- One thing that I am sure you looked into is that LeBron's 3 point shot deserted him in this series. Against the Bulls and Celts he was hitting the 3 at a 44% clip against the Celts, 39% against the Bulls and only 32% against Dallas which is why he struggled so much because he could not get to the rim.

I'll take a closer look at that. During game 2, most of the ones he took were just bailouts because the offense was so stagnant. to his credit, he hit on crazy one.

PS. Cuban has since talked about how much they relied on "analytics" to study the sweet spots of LeBron/Wade and drive them away from those spots. He said that was very instrumental in making LeBron uncomfortable FWIW.

And it definitely worked.

[Goudelock]

Using my memory, and some highlights (including the stagnant video), I remember just how isolation heavy that Miami offense was. It was just Wade and James going one on one with the occasional Bosh midrange. It was basically what OKC's been running for the last 5 years, except Spo is smarter than Brooks and actually decided to run a real offense.

And I don't think that the Dallas Mavs role players get enough credit. Jason Terry, Chandler, Stevenson, Marion, and Barea were great in those playoffs. They all hit shots and played decent defense.

And finally, I will never know why Lebron was so passive in those Finals? But I'm not one of those people that will base his entire legacy on that one series.

[Orin]

Hello RealGM, first post from a long time lurker here. Topics and posts like this is why I love this board, from which I learned A LOT about basketball, especially regarding older players and advanced stats. I'm French, so English is not my native language and thus, feel free to correct me, I will appreciate it (and sorry if I make it hard to understand my point).


First I want to say that I'm a Miami Heat fan, so I obviously know this playoff series very well. Lebron James is to blame for our loss, but, as you said, the team structure and the coaching were just as important if not more.

I think most of you have watched this video of Mark Cuban explaining to Skip Bayless what his team did to the Miami Heat and particularly to Lebron James. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkVnlA9CJo

Now, what is interesting is the way it relates to your OP, Dr Spaceman. I didn't re-watched it, but from what I remember, Cuban clearly says that their strategy was to make Lebron think, to make him decide what to do on offense. And it is absolutely confirmed by your point and your video of Jason Kidd denying Mike Bibby the ball. Which is strange, because Lebron has such a high BBIQ that forcing him to make all the decision should lead to great results for his team (and it did not).

Some of you might not remember, but from 5,6 years ago, a lot of great defenses, especially in the playoff, didn't focus on the opponent's best player. Their line of thinking was "We can't stop X. And if we try too hard, he will make play for his teammates and danger will come from everywhere. So let him do his things and let's stop the other players". I remember Paul Pierce and Rivers, in 2010 vs Miami for example, sayings things like "Wade can't be stopped, but all of their other players can". And that's part of why Wade had such a great scoring series versus them.

How does that relate to this thread? Well, the Heat had 2 players of this caliber. So Dallas decided to let Wade be the one to "do his things" and focused on stopping Lebron and Bosh. What is interesting from others situation (like the Heat vs Celtics in 10', or Magic vs Cavs in 09' for that matter), is that Lebron was the one who Dallas concluded they could negate the impact, not scrub players. But they didn't guard him "normally", they guarded him by using his IQ against him :
"- Force Lebron to make the decisions -> if we double, triple him, he will make the right play and pass the ball to one of his teammates. But they can't shoot so they are not that dangerous.
- Lebron knows how good of a player Wade is, and will rely a lot on him to score.
- Let Wade do his things. He will hurt us, a lot, but not as much as if we tried to stop the both oh them."

But Lebron and Wade were very similar players in 11, so the question is, why did they chose to execute this strategy on Lebron James and not Wade? I do have my take on it, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

This is absolutely crazy to me. And you can actually see it on the court. A lot of times these guys just look uncomfortable out there, and there's so little motion or communication. There were even a couple of times where passes were bobbled because guys just didn't know it was coming. If this is true, honestly it's hard to believe the team even made it that far in the first place.

Well, one thing that people tend to forget and underrate is the series Miami, and Lebron, had against the Bulls. It is easy now to say that Miami was the better and more talented team, but that was absolutely not the consensus at the time. In fact, up until the miraculous return of Haslem in game 2, the medias were already burying Miami.
For me, as much as it is heralded, it is the most underrated playoff series of Lebron and the Heat. It is one of his top3, at least top 5 series IMO. And maybe the only series in the whole Miami Heat Big 3 era were all the big 3 had the impact of a superstar.

[Brenice]

Sounds like Dallas instituted a game plan to make LeBron ineffective and Miami didn't make adjustments to counter that.

[Hornet Mania]

I think everyone is on the right track when they assume Carlisle and his staff were banking on Lebron making the right basketball play at all costs, even if that meant deferring to inferior players.

I think what the Mavs took advantage of was that Lebron, that year especially but it's true to some extent throughout his career, plays under control and rarely if ever forces the issue. They knew what to expect from him, how he wouldn't try to overextend himself, and they turned it against him spectacularly. Just one example is FGA, which were stunningly consistent for Lebron that series. He took almost exactly 15 FGA per game in all but two of the contests, Game 4 and 5. In Game 4, the infamous "choke" game where he scored 8 points, he took only 11 shots which was his series-low. In Game 5 he took 19 shots, and actually ended up with a worse +/- than in the "choke" game everyone remembers best. In Game 6 he went back to 15 FGA, his usual, but his turnovers spike and his +/- was -24, which is atrocious for a player of his caliber. The larger point is regardless of game circumstances Lebron never deviated more than 4 attempts above or below his usual FGA, I think the Mavs expected this and gave him the rope (open teammates when reading strange defensive configurations) to hang himself.

I do think there was a mental aspect to that series though, definitely. Not in the Baylessian "he's a choke artist, nothing like MJ" sense but more in the sense that an intelligent player in a high-pressure situation after spending a year wearing the black hat (a role he was unaccustomed to) knowing full-well the whole world wanted to see him fail sort of over-thought things a bit. The Mavs, of course, helped him along in that respect brilliantly with all sorts of well-timed and well-executed confusion. I felt like Lebron came into each of those contests with a pre-set strategy more and more as the series went along, probably in part because read and react wasn't working against the defensive sets he was seeing. In Game 2 Miami loses a hard-fought contest where Lebron shoots over 50% from the field but has few assists. In Game 3 Lebron dials back his scoring, dishes out 9 assists and the Heat win a similarly close game. In Game 4 Lebron comes out looking to defer (because it was a winning strategy, he's no dummy), doesn't press, only puts up 11 shot attempts and looks borderline useless. In Game 5 he shoots his series-high in FGA, coincidentally right after the game everyone trashes him for not scoring enough, but the Heat still lose. By Game 6 he's pressing, 5 3pt attempts, he goes 1/4 from the line which is generally understood to be the most mental part of basketball, and his turnovers spike.

In my opinion Lebron got progressively more desperate to solve the riddle as the series went along, he tried a variety of strategies, with the exception that he never was able to force himself to go full ball-hog mode because it went totally against his basketball instincts (which are usually what make him a generational talent). Even in the game where he tried to correct his "passive" Game 4 performance he only shot four more times than usual, or once more per quarter, a paltry amount. The Mavs banked on Lebron refusing to make the dumb basketball play and imposing his will on them instead of letting Bibby/Haslem/Anthony/etc. take open shots. They won that bet.

[PCProductions]

Wow, a lot of good stuff here. Before I go and rewatch this series--which I'm dreading considering that I'm a big fan of his--I want to post my thoughts based on my four-year-old memory of the series:

1) I remember Lebron generally making the "correct" play. He obviously didn't shoot them out of the series, but it wasn't an embarrassment of catastrophes like you would think just hearing about it.

2) I remember a lot of standing in the corner. This is probably a result of his helplessness against something Hornet Mania just described as the "unsolvable riddle"

3) I also thought that he looked physically tired compared the earlier rounds, so his ability to do things he's used to doing was slowed down.

I will get back with thoughts after rewatching a couple of the games. I appreciate the unbiased observations thus far since this is such an infamous series.

[RSCD3_]

I know there's individual player tracking but can we find out just how many of the plays of the 2011 were isolation like RS,PS, and Finals.

[lorak]

1. What issues are directly related to LeBron? (I'm talking basketball things, not mental things)

Mentality is part of basketball, so it's odd to ignore that.

Dallas also had a habit of swarming James pretty much anywhere inside the arc without regard for anyone else:

Spoiler:

And sometimes even outside the arc:

Spoiler:

That doesn't seem like anything special (hard to say more based on a couple of screens; video of full plays would be more telling), It's just typical defensive spacing and scheme most teams use against player with the ball.

[Brenice]

Are teams still deploying the "unsolvable riddle"?

[GYK]

I remember a lot of Shawn Marion guiding Lebron in an active Tyson.

[PaulieWal]

Are teams still deploying the "unsolvable riddle"?

From what I remember a lot of the teams in 2012 RS against the Heat would try to play zone but Spo was better prepared for it and LeBron's improvements also helped him as he wouldn't just stand around and the Heat as a team had much better ball movement + better shooters to counter the zones.

[QRich3]

Great thread. I don't have a lot more to add, other than I'm weirdly pleased that the 2011 Finals kind of proved how strategy can go a long way to overcome talent disadvantage, on paper at least.

And although Carlisle deserves all the praise in the world, Cuban has hinted a few times (at the Sloan conference a couple years ago and on that video linked by Orin upthread) that this strategy to force Lebron out of his spots and make him bring the ball up, receive it in uncomfortable spots etc. was a result of the collective thinking of their analytics department, not just the coaching staff. Let's not forget that Roland Beech, the director of that department for the Mavs at the time, was sitting in the bench then, which was a big novelty at the time. Just thought it was worth pointing out with all the talk about analytics in the media lately.

[Dr Spaceman]

1. What issues are directly related to LeBron? (I'm talking basketball things, not mental things)

Mentality is part of basketball, so it's odd to ignore that.

Not ignoring it, in fact I'd invite people to discuss it in neutral terms as many in this thread have done so far. I just don't want discussion to rehash the same things we've talked about over and over again about James being a "choker" and things like that. Productive discussion is fine with me if you want to comment.

Dallas also had a habit of swarming James pretty much anywhere inside the arc without regard for anyone else:

Spoiler:

And sometimes even outside the arc:

Spoiler:

That doesn't seem like anything special (hard to say more based on a couple of screens; video of full plays would be more telling), It's just typical defensive spacing and scheme most teams use against player with the ball.

The first screen grab bothered me because teams don't generally leave Mike Miller unguarded behind the arc. The fact that 3 Dallas defenders are forming a wall with Nowitzki freelancing behind them also stuck out to me, and this wall formation is something they do repeatedly. I personally don't see that tactic often, but feel free to correct me.

[tonyreyes123]

In hindsight the Mavs should've been favored this series. Their team boasted a stronger balanced starting 5/roster

[ronnymac2]

I remember at the time of the series, ElGee was tracking possessions and observed a sharp decrease in LeBron's defensive effectiveness over the whole of the six-game Finals series relative to the defensive dominance he had displayed against Chicago and Boston in the East Playoffs. IIRC, more mistakes, less effective closeouts on shooters, less penetrations stopped. It jibed with what myself and others saw via an admittedly less studious eyetest, e.i., his defensive effort waned in the Finals. It didn't seem consistent with his work against Chicago and Boston (arguably his two best series ever, particularly the CHI series), so it added to the shock of LBJ playing so poorly. I wish I could find that post.

I want to thank Dr Spaceman for finding examples of what Dallas was doing and explaining why LeBron James wasn't at his best on offense. Coach Carlisle developed a great plan, and they had the pieces to orchestrate the attack on LeBron. Kidd/Marion/Stevenson had the size, strength, length to constantly have a solid initial defender on LBJ, and Chandler/Nowitzki were space eaters in the middle, especially Chandler with his mobility.

As has been noted often on this board, 2011 LBJ had gained muscle mass and lost some live dribble explosiveness in the halfcourt. So when things got bad and LBJ was forced to play 1 vs. 1 from the perimeter, he couldn't pull a 2009 LBJ and just drive to the basket and do anything he By Gawd wanted. He had to take a more measured approach, and as noted in the OP, perhaps Dallas saw that and used LBJ's best basketball personality trait to contribute to his own demise.

There's also MPG. LBJ took on an enormous load on both sides of the ball in the East playoffs and played like 43 MPG or something. May have been drained. I doubt this was a major factor, however. He was 26. It was 2011, not 2014.

Dallas disallowing him from favorable post positions was huge. Dallas' greatest Four Factors advantage in the series was FT/FGA. (Miami actually won rebounds and TOV%.) LeBron took less than 4 FTAs per game, while Bosh and Wade were both over 7 FTAs per game. If LeBron had gotten superior post position and/or was able to constantly slash into the paint no matter what a la '09 LBJ, he'd probably be in that range as well, and considering the series was so damn close, we're probably looking at a Miami victory even if LBJ had gone cold from the perimeter.

At the time, what pissed me off was the FTAs. It showed passivity. Not sure if it was mental or if he physically was unable to break through a space-eating defense like he was a year or 2 earlier, but it made it seem like he wasn't aggressive enough. Maybe I was wrong for attributing the poor play to a lack of aggression instead of taking a more nuanced look at the factors contributing to the decrease in FTAs.

As far as the result on his production and efficiency, he had a USG% of 22.9 and an individual ORTG of 102. So Miami got inefficient production from LeBron James. That's not too damning. His tepid offensive rebounding makes sense considering he was forced to the perimeter with the ball a lot. Turnovers are really poor.

He got over 7 assists per game, but I'm not sure how much of that was creating vs. simply passing. There's a difference. Again, I think the evidence in the OP points to Dallas wanting LBJ to pass to the players they knew they could control relatively speaking. Considering the lack of shooting and inexperience of SPO to create an efficient, machine-like offense we saw in 2012 and beyond, it worked. This is the part that might be damning to 2011 LBJ.

No Miami player aside from the Big 3 and Super Mario had an individual ORTG over 100 (Juwan Howard only played 29 minutes in total, not counting him). LBJ and Bosh were still pretty inefficient. Wade and Chalmers were the only ones able to capitalize on the way Dallas played LBJ.

To be honest, I don't think there was a counter for what Dallas did. That version of LBJ couldn't slash and create the way 2009 LBJ could from the perimeter, especially without spacing and with a space-eating defense concentrating on him.

FWIW, I do think 2011 LBJ gets underrated. Finals aside, it might be his finest defensive season ever, his mid-range game was on point, and he was still a beast slashing and creating, albeit a lesser beast than 2009-2010 and 2012-2015.

[lorak]

The first screen grab bothered me because teams don't generally leave Mike Miller unguarded behind the arc. The fact that 3 Dallas defenders are forming a wall with Nowitzki freelancing behind them also stuck out to me, and this wall formation is something they do repeatedly. I personally don't see that tactic often, but feel free to correct me.

Could you show video with whole play? (or at least tell what quarter and time on the clock was, so I can check it myself.) Because it seems like Terry was lost on D and that's why Miller was open - not because Dallas defensive scheme was designed that way to leave MM open and focus on LJ. That's BTW why I don't like screen shots much, because you could show anything you want if you chose proper moment (not saying that you did it on purpose, just general observation about screen shots).

[Goudelock]

This is the first completely rational discussion of the 2011 finals that I've ever seen. From what has been posted, Dallas came up with one of the GOAT gameplans, and then executed it to perfection.

I think this is the famous "Cuban pwns Bayless" video. Espn needs more of this.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9w_XUQyJJQ[/youtube]

[Pg81]

In hindsight the Mavs should've been favored this series. Their team boasted a stronger balanced starting 5/roster

They were by far the oldest team in the league.
Tyson Chandler was on 5 different teams prior to his stint with the Mavs and had iirc one healthy season.
Kidd was a shadow if his former self, retired after the next season.
Terry was his usual streaky no defense playing shooter self. At least he stepped up in that playoff run.
Their 2nd best scorer was missing the entire playoffs while Miami had all their top scorers healthy.
Dirk had at least two injuries, elbow and finger, which was the main reason why he struggled some in the finals.
Marion was till good but entering his twilight years.

There were plenty of good reasons to not favor the Mavs in that playoff run. They simply weren't a usual championship winning team which more often than not consisted of a superstar, another all star or even superstar and fitting starters/role players around them who are also not 33+ on average.