Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[Ruzious]

I think it'd take a top 3 pick to get D-Angelo Russell. Winslow's a nice prospect, but he's yet another guy who doesn't have a jump shot. We need shootists.

[gambitx777]

Burke, Hood & Booker are backups and a serious stepdown from the upside of Beal. We need front line talent AND better depth, not just better depth.

That's a bit short sighted is it not? what do we need,
Cap room in 2016, and we need to make the team attractive to KD. This does both.
We dump webster, and booker provides solid depth on a one year deal.
Hood is a decent shooter, he could turn into a really nice 3 and D wing player. We need a young back up for wall and Burke provides that.
the picks will allow us to replace beals upside and we avoid over paying him.
I like beal but a deal of this nature that fills needs, fixes issues and provides a lot of flexibility in terms of, money, talent, and assets should be considered.

I think it'd take a top 3 pick to get D-Angelo Russell. Winslow's a nice prospect, but he's yet another guy who doesn't have a jump shot. We need shootists.

Well if we get it before the lottery is drawn and unprotected we could get a top 3 pick. Winslow is not a terrible shooter, but he does replace beal well, and he will probably be an upgraded defensively, and not to much if any of a down grade on offence.

[jangles86]

Desperate times.

Let's throw a package of
Gortat
Serephin
Webster
2016 1st

For

Dwight Howard
Clint Capela
KJ Mcdaniels

[Dat2U]

Deal Beal and at that point we become Wall and a bunch of role players. Beal at 21, and yes he's still 21, represents the best chance to get that 2nd star because we've got very little to work with outside of the KD hail mary in '16.

[gambitx777]

Deal Beal and at that point we become Wall and a bunch of role players. Beal at 21, and yes he's still 21, represents the best chance to get that 2nd star because we've got very little to work with outside of the KD hail mary in '16.

And what are the Hawks? or the Bucks? The bucks had to make a choice with Knight and they pulled the trigger. I Think it's a reasonable gamble. I like Beal, if we keep him, cool. But its a good deal that comes along, one that fixes issues, fills holes with youth, adds talent, creates flexibility and gives us good picks. You take that deal!

[Ruzious]

And if you trade Beal and get 2 guys who can become just as good as he is, you dramatically increase assets and reduce risk of depending on one guy.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And if you trade Beal and get 2 guys who can become just as good as he is, you dramatically increase assets and reduce risk of depending on one guy.

That's true with any player, including Wall.

If you view each player as an asset, getting two just as good for one makes sense, particularly when salaries are the same overall.

Beal at this point is very much a trade asset. I think Dat makes a good point about Bradley Beal being just 21 and a good piece to build around Wall. OTOH, a friend and I see Beal as perhaps another Calbert Cheaney.

I can see a lot of players becoming better than Beal. Great kid with outstanding character. Great pure stroke but he's not likely to be as good as Klay Thompson or James Harden. Beal's health is concern.

I think he is a keeper until after a coaching staff change, but I would consider offers for Beal. He represents an opportunity to really improve the Wizards overall

[BruceO]

I'm still salty over the fact enes kanter was available and we didn't trade for him. Been wanting him for years. I mentioned him during trade season but the concern was his D. now I watch him put up 20 and 12 and numbers like these

m.espn.go.com/nba/playergamelog?playerId=6447&season=2015&month=2&wjb=

and i think why didn't we? also I was super excited when we drafted jordan clarkson only to see we gave him away. He's also doing well and would have been a suitable back up.

I'm not going to knock beal. I did want Drummond that draft but Beal I like him now. I hope he becomes a James Harden but I feel at his height he has a limited upside. But we'll see. He's strong and we see what playoff Beal shows up. Oh if we are talking trades id trade beal for embiid without seeing embiid play one pro game.

I'm pro getting Durant and cousins obviously. But if anti this not trying to improve the team or offense or coaching until then.

next year's draft im interested in somehow getting Stanley Johnson at Sf and kelly oubre as a shooting guard to start. I think dangelo Russell will be good. Mudiay will make a solid team pg with few holes once his shooting is working. Okafor I liked but don't know if his game of posting up and lack of defense is suitable to the nba. but he will put up numbers and might work. He's out of our range. So i only care so far for Stanley Johnson and oubre.

/rant

[nate33]

I'm still salty over the fact enes kanter was available and we didn't trade for him. Been wanting him for years. I mentioned him during trade season but the concern was his D. now I watch him put up 20 and 12 and numbers like these

m.espn.go.com/nba/playergamelog?playerId=6447&season=2015&month=2&wjb=

and i think why didn't we? also I was super excited when we drafted jordan clarkson only to see we gave him away. He's also doing well and would have been a suitable back up.

I'm not going to knock beal. I did want Drummond that draft but Beal I like him now. I hope he becomes a James Harden but I feel at his height he has a limited upside. But we'll see. He's strong and we see what playoff Beal shows up. Oh if we are talking trades id trade beal for embiid without seeing embiid play one pro game.

I'm pro getting Durant and cousins obviously. But if anti this not trying to improve the team or offense or coaching until then.

next year's draft im interested in somehow getting Stanley Johnson at Sf and kelly oubre as a shooting guard to start. I think dangelo Russell will be good. Mudiay will make a solid team pg with few holes once his shooting is working. Okafor I liked but don't know if his game of posting up and lack of defense is suitable to the nba. but he will put up numbers and might work. He's out of our range. So i only care so far for Stanley Johnson and oubre.

/rant

I don't understand why you are so salty. Kanter was a really bad fit for us for a bunch of reasons. His salary would mean the end of KD2DC. He would be completely redundant on a team with Gortat, Nene and Seraphin. And he's a lousy defensive anchor. He really needs an elite defensive PF alongside him like Ibaka or Noel to cover for his weakness. We don't have that guy.

Now, if we had drafted Noel, and if we somehow managed to deal Gortat for wing help, maybe then Kanter would have made sense. If we had a time machine, we could go back and draft Noel. Then keep Ariza instead of Gortat. Then trade expirings for Kanter. Oh yeah, and also trade for Isaiah Thomas.

PG Wall/IT
SG Beal/IT
SF Ariza/Butler
PF Noel/Nene
C Kanter/Nene

[Ruzious]

And if you trade Beal and get 2 guys who can become just as good as he is, you dramatically increase assets and reduce risk of depending on one guy.

That's true with any player, including Wall.

If you view each player as an asset, getting two just as good for one makes sense, particularly when salaries are the same overall.

Beal at this point is very much a trade asset. I think Dat makes a good point about Bradley Beal being just 21 and a good piece to build around Wall. OTOH, a friend and I see Beal as perhaps another Calbert Cheaney.

I can see a lot of players becoming better than Beal. Great kid with outstanding character. Great pure stroke but he's not likely to be as good as Klay Thompson or James Harden. Beal's health is concern.

I think he is a keeper until after a coaching staff change, but I would consider offers for Beal. He represents an opportunity to really improve the Wizards overall

Except that it's a helluvalot easier to find two Beal or Calbert Cheaney level players than 2 Wall level players. Remember, Cheaney never did develop into the kind of player people expected. He plateaued very early in his career. What happens to the Wiz future if Beal ends up as a Cal level player?

[Dat2U]

Beal is going to get better. I think his performance has been a bit depressed by the lack of coaching & direction he's received. IMO so has Wall, but he's managed to become pretty good despite the encouragment to be a mid-range gunner and propensity to pass up layups at the rim for kickouts for inferior shots.

[dckingsfan]

I think Beal needs to get healthy. Hard to put that big summer in when your body won't let you...

[Sluggerface]

Beal is going to get better. I think his performance has been a bit depressed by the lack of coaching & direction he's received. IMO so has Wall, but he's managed to become pretty good despite the encouragment to be a mid-range gunner and propensity to pass up layups at the rim for kickouts for inferior shots.

So much this. We can't make an accurate projection of Beal's ceiling/floor until he plays in an offense where he actually plays like a 2 guard rather than a combo guard where he's running the point (and failing spectacularly). 31 percent of his shots are pullup long two's. 31 PERCENT. You want to know how much someone like Wes Matthews or Kevin Martin shoots those? 15%... even Klay caps out at 20%. Beal isn't being used correctly AT ALL.

[gambitx777]

Beal is going to get better. I think his performance has been a bit depressed by the lack of coaching & direction he's received. IMO so has Wall, but he's managed to become pretty good despite the encouragment to be a mid-range gunner and propensity to pass up layups at the rim for kickouts for inferior shots.

So much this. We can't make an accurate projection of Beal's ceiling/floor until he plays in an offense where he actually plays like a 2 guard rather than a combo guard where he's running the point (and failing spectacularly). 31 percent of his shots are pullup long two's. 31 PERCENT. You want to know how much someone like Wes Matthews or Kevin Martin shoots those? 15%... even Klay caps out at 20%. Beal isn't being used correctly AT ALL.

I don't think any one thinks that he is being used right, and I don't think that any hates beal as a player. But the fact is if you can fix more than have of your teams issues by trading Beal you have to think about it.

[Ruzious]

Beal is going to get better. I think his performance has been a bit depressed by the lack of coaching & direction he's received. IMO so has Wall, but he's managed to become pretty good despite the encouragment to be a mid-range gunner and propensity to pass up layups at the rim for kickouts for inferior shots.

So much this. We can't make an accurate projection of Beal's ceiling/floor until he plays in an offense where he actually plays like a 2 guard rather than a combo guard where he's running the point (and failing spectacularly). 31 percent of his shots are pullup long two's. 31 PERCENT. You want to know how much someone like Wes Matthews or Kevin Martin shoots those? 15%... even Klay caps out at 20%. Beal isn't being used correctly AT ALL.

How is Beal playing like a combo guard - when he's playing 90% of his minutes with Wall? Yes, he's taking too many 2's, but he'd get more 3's if he had a quicker release - and he's got to make a better percentage of his 2's. I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

[nate33]

I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

Your comment got me thinking. I note that Bradley Beal's FT% in his third season is just .802. That's really not very good for a "pure shooter". Most elite shooters shoot in the high 80's or the 90's. Here are some examples (these are FT% for the third season of their career)

Stephen Curry: .900
Klay Thompson: .795 (an outlier year. He was .841 in Year 2 and .870 in Year 4)
Reggie Miller: .868
Ray Allen: .903
Dell Curry: .870
Hersey Hawkins: .871
Kyle Korver: .849 (shot .914 in his 4th year)
Steve Kerr: .849
Rip Hamilton: .890

Beal just doesn't match up to other pure shooters. This concerns me. A player who is billed as a pure shooter should have the consistent, repeatable mechanics to allow them to shoot in the high 80's from the FT line. All of the other great shooters had this. Beal apparently does not. It may pan out that Beal is merely a good shooter, not a great one. I think we may be witnessing this with his lousy midrange shot. If that's the case, then it's a real problem because he's below average in most other offense skills. He doesn't get separation with his dribble; he's not a great slasher or finisher; and he doesn't draw fouls.

[keynote]

I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

Your comment got me thinking. I note that Bradley Beal's FT% in his third season is just .802. That's really not very good for a "pure shooter". Most elite shooters shoot in the high 80's or the 90's. Here are some examples (these are FT% for the third season of their career)

Stephen Curry: .900
Klay Thompson: .795 (an outlier year. He was .841 in Year 2 and .870 in Year 4)
Reggie Miller: .868
Ray Allen: .903
Dell Curry: .870
Hersey Hawkins: .871
Kyle Korver: .849 (shot .914 in his 4th year)
Steve Kerr: .849
Rip Hamilton: .890

Beal just doesn't match up to other pure shooters. This concerns me. A player who is billed as a pure shooter should have the consistent, repeatable mechanics to allow them to shoot in the high 80's from the FT line. All of the other great shooters had this. Beal apparently does not. It may pan out that Beal is merely a good shooter, not a great one. I think we may be witnessing this with his lousy midrange shot. If that's the case, then it's a real problem because he's below average in most other offense skills. He doesn't get separation with his dribble; he's not a great slasher or finisher; and he doesn't draw fouls.

Interesting analysis. I wonder if he puts in the work he needs to to fine-tune his form and quicken his release. I think the coaching staff has had him focus on his ball handling and playmaking. Perhaps they view him as less-athletic Wade with a better J, rather than an elite shooter.

[Induveca]

If they think Beal is Wade.......we're in trouble. The kid isn't tall enough, nor does he have enough lift/ball handling skills.

He needs to shoot threes.

[Sluggerface]

Beal is going to get better. I think his performance has been a bit depressed by the lack of coaching & direction he's received. IMO so has Wall, but he's managed to become pretty good despite the encouragment to be a mid-range gunner and propensity to pass up layups at the rim for kickouts for inferior shots.

So much this. We can't make an accurate projection of Beal's ceiling/floor until he plays in an offense where he actually plays like a 2 guard rather than a combo guard where he's running the point (and failing spectacularly). 31 percent of his shots are pullup long two's. 31 PERCENT. You want to know how much someone like Wes Matthews or Kevin Martin shoots those? 15%... even Klay caps out at 20%. Beal isn't being used correctly AT ALL.

How is Beal playing like a combo guard - when he's playing 90% of his minutes with Wall? Yes, he's taking too many 2's, but he'd get more 3's if he had a quicker release - and he's got to make a better percentage of his 2's. I don't think I've seen such a good-looking shooter miss so many mid-range jumpers.

Playing with Wall has nothing to do with it, in fact, Wall's presence on the court literally has no effect on most of the plays that Beal is featured in. Beal's total TOP is nearly double that of guys like Matthews and Martin, it's even higher than Klay's. Randy expects him to handle the ball and create plays, most pure 2 guards in the league do not have that responsibility. In general it's a 3 step process between Shooting, Driving, and Kicking, something that takes all of 3 seconds to process and do. Most defenses push Beal out behind the arc with pressure, and Randy has found zero ways to counter this. Beal will frequently receive the ball 2-3 feet behind the line and proceed to run the 2 man game with the 4 spot, or attempt a botched pick and roll that gets blown up immediately, often because either the spacing is f'ed or Beal is too hesitant to explode to the rim. Most of the time we just see these plays used as a means to get Beal space to shoot a long two. When these don't happen, Beal ends up holding on to the ball and stalling the offense. This is all horrible coaching, his extremely hot playoff run was just a flash in the pan and something that any guard can do when they get in the zone. The sad thing is Beal has developed literally nothing since his rookie year, he's still the same player coming out of Florida. Whoever comes in next year (if someone comes in), they're going to have to completely tear apart Beal's game and all of these plays and rebuild it from the ground up.

[payitforward]

going from 20 to 29 is basically like trading the first though, thats basically a 2nd rounder at that point....

Not really. Unfortunately.

I'd *way rather* have the #31 pick (i.e. R2#1) than the #29 pick -- no difference in talent level, and you're not stuck w/ the guy for 2-3 years if he's no good. Moreover, if he *is* good, you get him at a terrific bargain.