Countdown to NBA Draft: Prospect Talk

[Deeeez Knicks]

Pumped for the tournaments to start. This is where we find out who has what it takes. Time to separate the men from the boys.

[Jmonty580]

I'm not excited. Firstly because my team sucks and wont make the tournament lol. But also because there isn't much parity. Who doesn't think Kentucky will steam roll their way to the finals and win a championship with their NBA team? boring

[Jeff Van Gully]

I think Towns would be more than enough in the post along with Melo and whoever other free agents we get. He aint Jah or Shaq but he has elements of Pau and Bynum.

I don't think he will be right off the bat.. as we speak he's got one move.. he turns over his left shoulder and shoots a right handed jump hook. I've said numerous teams Melo is straying more and more to the perimeter these days and he doesn't seem to post up as much as he used. A big reason why is self-preservation. What other free agents can we get? Greg Monroe?

Again there just arent many PFs who could defend the rim but at the same time space the floor for Okafor on offense. What I mean by contender level starter is a guy good enough at those things to actually win a ring with. Many of those guys you mentioned didnt play big minutes in their championship runs even if they started I believe. Amir Johnson is an alright defender but hes not good enough to cover Okafor and Melo. We'd need Draymond or Ibaka.

It's not about finding one guy who can do that to play big minutes. It's about having a bunch of different guys that can work together for different stretches of the game that each can provide some of that. It's just about having a well rounded front court rotation. But for me the first thing we could dictate in any given game is to make teams stop Okafor in the post. That right there forces to teams to adjust and that puts us one step ahead right off the bat. If they want to double team him.. here we have Melo spotting up and breaking open off rub screens and shooters spaced out wide behind the 3pt line. In my opinion that's going to be extremely difficult to stop.

It clearly wouldnt be as hard to build around Okafor if he becomes as dominant as we think he can on offense. I'm talking 25+ ppg on 55+ FG% where even if he only becomes a slighty below average defender should still make him a net positive overall. It's just incredibly easy to build around Towns because he fits with anyone. Thats the beauty of versatile two way players, but I get the gist you dont think very highly of his offense, at least right now.

I think this is why we just can't see eye to eye on this.. and I'm going to present this again because I've said it a lot and maybe you missed it or maybe like the rest of the forum you've just grown tired of seeing me post.

You're right Okafor wouldn't be as hard to build around.. that's one of the reasons I want the Knicks to draft him. Towns on the other hand isn't a player you build around right now. Maybe Towns will become one eventually but I see him right now as a complementary piece to a team with more than one piece in place. He's not a first or second option just yet and he's not a player that can carry an offense by himself.

I'm approaching this draft with a very broad view.. I've taken into account maybe Melo asking for a trade if year 2 doesn't go as plan or maybe he becomes more and more injury prone and that's why I feel a little bit better if we have to switch up and build around this draft pick. And I think doing that around Okafor's insanely polished post game, strength,and size to me is so much easier. We're watching Duke and the players that are around Okafor having a very successful season playing their ace card (Okafor in the low post) each and every game right off the bat and all game long. The mere threat of an Okafor post up has opened up so many things for the other Duke players and I can only imagine what that's going to do in a game with more space (the NBA) and surrounded by more talented players (NBA players).

I want to say these responses are on point my man. Always appreciate talkin hoops with you.

I disagree that Towns has one move though. In the low post maybe but I think you put him in the high post to make plays with his passing and shooting and he'd make up for that while he continues to get better downlow. I know he hasn't shown it much during the season but Towns can really shoot. 126 threes made in highschool and his FTs are butter. I'm sure Wark is seeing that in practice/shootaround and teams will def see it in workouts. Maybe the mid range J is the most inefficient shot in basketball, but many guys still feast from there (it's important in the triangle) and the fact that Towns can spot up while Okafor can't yet is something Towns does definitely have over him now.

Okafor can definitely carry an offense better now though. I don't think anyone will disagree there. Many are just starting to see Towns as the more dynamic versatile all around player. I really do think there's less risk with Towns because at the very least he's going to be a nice two way starter, and at the most he'll take elements of Horford, Pau, LMA, Noah, Sheed, Bynum, Favors, Bosh, Camby, etc. You talk about Okafor hitting the weight room, well Towns has already put on some good muscle just in the past year and this is only the beginning. He could be a true monster himself once he gets some meat on those legs.

I am trying to build with Melo staying in mind because we may not get another player on his level for a while, unless this draft pick surpasses him. I'm not giving him up just yet and I think Towns complements him overall better on both sides, now and in the future. Towns' personality is something I really like about him too. He seems like a leader and was made to play in NY. Growing up in Jersey. Okafor is a nice kid but he's quiet and laid back like Melo, and we get on Melo all the time for not leading/being vocal enough. Towns has those traits to me, that fire that I like and that's something which isn't just for show. Guys like Noah, who I think Towns can be our version of attitude wise, raise the level of everybody else.

Listen I just saw my Iona Gaels lose to Manhattan in the MAAC championship for the 2nd straight year the exact same way. Iona is a great offensive team and they have the MAAC player of the year in big man David Laury, who is a awesome offensive player (had like 30 points) but doesn't do much on defense. Clearly not as good as Okafor but I see similar things when they play. Manhattan beat Iona with defense and rebounding. This big guy Pankey on Manhattan completely shut down the paint while Iona was giving up easy buckets left and right. So no matter how good you are on offense if you can't protect the rim it's all for nothing man. I really think you underestimate how important it is, especially now when perimeter defense is so much harder to do with all the rule changes. Many defenses funnel players right into their bigs. I fully believe that Okafor could improve, but right now he worries me that he will be yet another all offense/no defense playing big man that we keep hoping will get it one day.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on some of these things. We're both projecting. These draft picks can go either way and we really don't know sh*t . Just got to be optimistic whoever we do take works out. For the record I would be completely fine with taking Okafor, just not over Towns right now. Despite me being hard on the guy Okafor and Towns seem pretty comfortably the best 2 prospects in this draft. Russell is nice but his lack of burst/slashing could be troublesome. I'm not about to become a jump shooting team again so if Okafor can eat on the block out of the gate I'm fine for the time being. Developing players is what coaching is for so let's see if we could catch him while he's young, unlike Amare, and teach the boy how to D up.

you guys are having a great back-and-forth with a lot of awesome points. kudos to both!

i agree with true about the state of the league's defense. we need elite perimeter defenders, but that second line of defense is more important than it's ever been. in the 90s, everyone got checked. man-to-man defense was a real thing. now, you get the matador to the big man. it sucks. it's not fair. but it's kind of how things are going. chandler played that role very well for dallas during their championship. it's not the rule, but it's popular. (miami won 2 chips without the elite post defender. bosh gave underrated effort, but he's no star on that end. their perimeter defense is unparalleled. and they had a superior combination of talent that worked twice... and didn't work twice... to superior interior defenses.)

okafor scares me in the way brook lopez did coming out of college.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I'm not excited. Firstly because my team sucks and wont make the tournament lol. But also because there isn't much parity. Who doesn't think Kentucky will steam roll their way to the finals and win a championship with their NBA team? boring

i don't see anyone beating them. but that's the beauty of the tournament. david knocks off goliath on a given day. that's kind of what we all watch for.

[F N 11]

Knicks Need a PG and a Big in the worst way. We have sucked at Shooting guard for a while as well since Allan Houston

[Deeeez Knicks]

I'm not excited. Firstly because my team sucks and wont make the tournament lol. But also because there isn't much parity. Who doesn't think Kentucky will steam roll their way to the finals and win a championship with their NBA team? boring

They will for the most part, but you never know. I am sure at some point they will get tested. They are stacked and the clear cut favorite, but there is a lot of parity after them. There are always a ton of great games.

[siar617]

Our pick should be made to benefit the future of the Knicks. We have our franchise player already, wr need complementary players to go with him in the triangle. All the needs you guys speak of should be addressed in free agency. We need to do what's best for the Knicks and thats Towns clearly.

[sol537]

package the 1st or 2nd pick with THjr for two lotto picks-- one in the top 5 and one in the top 10.

[TrueWarrior]

Also Abe: I will agree that in the NBA you win with the best talent, but that doesnt mean the best scorer. The Spurs won last year without a dominant scorer and the Hawks are balling this year in the same fashion. The obvious '04 Pistons and '11 Mavs won rings without 2 big time scorers. No reason Towns cant be the same or better than an old Tim Duncan, a post-multiple injuries Horford, or Sheed. This is where a good system comes into play and we should have that in the triangle. Phil has praised the Spurs way of playing multiple times. I think we're starting to move away from Big 3 type teams because as we saw with Bosh and now Love the 3rd scorer becomes marginalized. There's only one ball. Why have Kevin Love if hes just going to jack threes?

Melo led the league in scoring for us but since he doesnt do much otherwise it's harder to win with him. Melo needs all around do it all players like Towns around him more than another pure scorer. Not that Towns wont be able to score or a potentially dominant post player like Okafor wouldnt help, but a souped up Al Jefferson/Brook Lopez just doesnt excite me much right now. Ive seen their teams struggle to build around them because what good is your center scoring 20 ppg if they let layup lines form on the other end for 35 mpg? You may not think Jah's D is that bad but I don't see much impact there.

As for Russell/Mudiay I'm starting to become more interested in Mudiay. Ive seen Russells last 7-8 games and while his passing/handles are great and he can get hot shooting, I'm not a fan of his lack of driving/speed. I dont think triangle guards need to be pigeonholed as having to just spot up and be great shooters. Mudiay can play more of a (clearly) poor mans Jordan/Kobe role. All systems need players who can get to the basket and the triangle is no different. If Mudiay can do that and improve his shooting to respectable levels then he should be a more dynamic player than Russell, on defense too. If 12 year old with a goatee Alexey Schved can ball in the triangle then so can Mudiay.

I can sit here and nitpick the top 4 all day, my boy Towns included. Just get me one of them and I'll be content though. When the dust settles I better not be left with that trollhaired Stanley Johnson.

[Besart19]

Okafor
Millsap
Carmelo
Butler
Knight

we won't have enough money for all that. but millsap and butler would be awesome. i could take or leave night depending on our options. as a PG, to not fit into jason kidd's schemes is a little scary.

One of Millsap or Knight via Sign and Trade... Calderon or Bargs, THJ plus the 2018 pick!

Okafor 5M
Millsap 12M
Melo 22M
Butler 16M

55M... if the cap goes up to 70M, another 15M to spend... plus the sign and trade can be made up to the tax threshold

[Besart19]

Okafor
LMA
Melo

Triple-Post-Offense

zero-post defense. but it would be pretty if they shared the ball. with that personnel, melo could be olympic melo more.

as he gets older, it might be better to preserve him out on the perimeter a bit more. he's great as a banger on the block, but that will have him on stoudemire sooner than later.

Very negative... all three are very good at post defense... Okafor struggles at help defense, while Melo defending the PnR!

[mpharris36]

Okafor
Millsap
Carmelo
Butler
Knight

we won't have enough money for all that. but millsap and butler would be awesome. i could take or leave night depending on our options. as a PG, to not fit into jason kidd's schemes is a little scary.

One of Millsap or Knight via Sign and Trade... Calderon or Bargs, THJ plus the 2018 pick!

Okafor 5M
Millsap 12M
Melo 22M
Butler 16M

55M... if the cap goes up to 70M, another 15M to spend... plus the sign and trade can be made up to the tax threshold

your not taking into account any cap holds or the other players that our currently on our roster. And Millsap is getting more than 12 million.

Not happening.

[ag3]

If Okafor is legit, he will score 40 points, 15 rebounds against Kentucky in the tournament and knock them out.

[Besart19]

comparing our 1999 team, we need to go with this:

Okafor or Towns (Ewing)
Melo (L.Johnson)
Butler (Sprewell)
Matthews (Houston) with Klay Thompson not available anymore
Collison or Galloway (Ward) unless we can do a SnT for Knight
D.West (Kurt)
Shved (Childs)
E.Davis (Camby)
Cole (Dudley)
Thanasis (Scott)
THJ (Brunson)
Herb is Herb

[Besart19]

If Okafor is legit, he will score 40 points, 15 rebounds against Kentucky in the tournament and knock them out.

Does Kentucky has good penetrators?! Because there lies his major weakness on D... His post presence is good!!

[E-Balla]

Also Abe: I will agree that in the NBA you win with the best talent, but that doesnt mean the best scorer. The Spurs won last year without a dominant scorer and the Hawks are balling this year in the same fashion. The obvious '04 Pistons and '11 Mavs won rings without 2 big time scorers. No reason Towns cant be the same or better than an old Tim Duncan, a post-multiple injuries Horford, or Sheed. This is where a good system comes into play and we should have that in the triangle. Phil has praised the Spurs way of playing multiple times. I think we're starting to move away from Big 3 type teams because as we saw with Bosh and now Love the 3rd scorer becomes marginalized. There's only one ball. Why have Kevin Love if hes just going to jack threes?

Problem is that this is a great draft at the top (not so sure outside of the top 4) and getting someone that good isn't so amazing. The problem with Bosh and Love is that they are on teams not building around them. WE AREN'T PICKING OKAFOR TO NOT BE THE FRANCHISE CENTERPIECE! I keep hearing about how he cannot be part of a well balanced team like Towns can but he has way more superstar potential than Towns.

People aren't moving away from those big 3 type teams. The Hawks and Spurs both had better defenses than offenses mainly because without a superstar offensive player it's impossible to have the best offense in the league. You know what team had a better offense than the current Hawks offense? The 2013 iso-Melo/JR Knicks. great role players along with a star or two will always be the easiest way to build an offense.

Melo led the league in scoring for us but since he doesnt do much otherwise it's harder to win with him. Melo needs all around do it all players like Towns around him more than another pure scorer. Not that a potentially dominant post player like Okafor wouldnt help, but a souped up Al Jefferson/Brook Lopez just doesnt excite me much right now. Ive seen their teams struggle to build around them because what good is your center scoring 20 ppg if they let layup lines form on the other end for 35 mpg? You may not think Jah's D is that bad but I don't see much impact there.

Again I don't like the idea of picking around Melo. The second we got the chance to pick Jahlil or Towns (who both have the potential to be better than Melo) we needed to end that. Right now we are building around that rookie just like how the Lakers built around Magic even though they had Kareem or like how the Spurs built around Duncan instead of Robinson.

And we've seen Brook lead Jersey to a 49 win season while averaging 23/8 before going down with injuries. There's no doubt in my mind that a healthy Brook leads last years team (who were 44-38 without him) to a 50+ win season. Al Jefferson has had a winning record 4 straight years and made the playoffs twice (about to be 3 times). And remember these are guys that aren't nearly as talented as Jahlil (Brook was the 10th pick and Al the 15th pick).

Also that season Brooklyn won 49 games Brook Lopez (according to rim protection numbers) was one of the top 5 rim protectors and he averaged 2.5 blocks a night. If I thought Jahlil could protect the rim like Brook I'd kidnap someone for that first pick.

As for Russell/Mudiay I'm starting to become more interested in Mudiay. Ive seen Russells last 7-8 games and while his passing/handles are great and he can get hot shooting, I'm not a fan of his lack of driving/speed. I dont think triangle guards need to be pigeonholed as having to just spot up and be great shooters. Mudiay can play more of a (clearly) poor mans Jordan/Kobe role. All systems need players who can get to the basket and the triangle is no different. If Mudiay can do that and improve his shooting to respectable levels then he should be a more dynamic player than Russell, on defense too. If 12 year old with a goatee Alexey Schved can ball in the triangle then so can Mudiay.

I can sit here and nitpick the top 4 all day, my boy Towns included. Just get me one of them and I'll be content though. When the dust settles I better not be left with that trollhaired Stanley Johnson.

Mudiay has no jumper so he automatically cannot play in any type of Jordan or Kobe role (both of whom did most of their damage in the high post). Russ on the other hand has a decent turnaround off one leg (like Dirk) he hits over 6-1 Gs occasionally.

[Jeff Van Gully]

comparing our 1999 team, we need to go with this:

Okafor or Towns (Ewing)
Melo (L.Johnson)
Butler (Sprewell)
Matthews (Houston) with Klay Thompson not available anymore
Collison or Galloway (Ward) unless we can do a SnT for Knight
D.West (Kurt)
Shved (Childs)
E.Davis (Camby)
Cole (Dudley)
Thanasis (Scott)
THJ (Brunson)
Herb is Herb

[No-Man]

I like his playmaking more than how I liked Wall's at the same age, John was terrific in the fast break but didnt know what to do when the game slows down.
He is not the athlete that Wall or Westbrook are, in terms of velocity, he is more James Harden sneaky athletic, but, he is freaking huge and explosive, I havent seen a high school player with his level of strength, fluidity and passing ability since LeBron, he is around 6'6 but he easily carries 220 now, and he is a true PG, the potnetial is too high, he is just a freaking train.
The jumper will need work, but he is, along with Okafor, the only guy I see with superstar potential, aka top10 platyer in the league potential, in this class.
Russell and Towns have the potential to be multiple All stars, and there are a bunch of guys with the potnetial of been 1 time All Stars, and some incognites like Turner who could go either way, but Mudiay has to go top2 with that, I think if Philly can they get him.

Where are you getting your info on his size? He hasn't really grown in 3 years and he is listed as being measured at 6'5 in shoes and 200 pounds. That's not a small man but it isn't close to what you posted. Still, he is bigger than most NBA pgs. What has to be remembered is if he cannot play PG at the NBA level (which is not a for sure thing), he will transition to a tweener sized SG who is not a great shooter.

Have you seen him in China? he added muscle, is obvious, he is bigger than a year ago at the Hoop Summit.
He has always been around 6'6, even if he transitions to SG he has elite size, but he is a PG.

[No-Man]

saying that Okafor has more potential than Carmelo is okay because he is a big, and he could be a top5-top10 player in the league, but Towns has not, no way, no how, more potential than Carmelo Anthony.
Towns will be lucky if he reaches Paus/Horford career.

[TrueWarrior]

Problem is that this is a great draft at the top (not so sure outside of the top 4) and getting someone that good isn't so amazing. The problem with Bosh and Love is that they are on teams not building around them. WE AREN'T PICKING OKAFOR TO NOT BE THE FRANCHISE CENTERPIECE! I keep hearing about how he cannot be part of a well balanced team like Towns can but he has way more superstar potential than Towns.

People aren't moving away from those big 3 type teams. The Hawks and Spurs both had better defenses than offenses mainly because without a superstar offensive player it's impossible to have the best offense in the league. You know what team had a better offense than the current Hawks offense? The 2013 iso-Melo/JR Knicks. great role players along with a star or two will always be the easiest way to build an offense.

Well I want to build my team defense first, especially my center. Jah does not have more superstar potential than Towns. They're different and can both be superstars in their own way. Id just prefer to go with the more complete player, even if he scores a few less PPG. Yea our offense was good in 2013 but our defense sucked and we fizzled in the playoffs because of that. You're proving my point. Jah would help get easy buckets inside which that team didnt have, but our D would be even worse because at least that team had Tyson.

Again I don't like the idea of picking around Melo. The second we got the chance to pick Jahlil or Towns (who both have the potential to be better than Melo) we needed to end that. Right now we are building around that rookie just like how the Lakers built around Magic even though they had Kareem or like how the Spurs built around Duncan instead of Robinson.

And we've seen Brook lead Jersey to a 49 win season while averaging 23/8 before going down with injuries. There's no doubt in my mind that a healthy Brook leads last years team (who were 44-38 without him) to a 50+ win season. Al Jefferson has had a winning record 4 straight years and made the playoffs twice (about to be 3 times). And remember these are guys that aren't nearly as talented as Jahlil (Brook was the 10th pick and Al the 15th pick).

Also that season Brooklyn won 49 games Brook Lopez (according to rim protection numbers) was one of the top 5 rim protectors and he averaged 2.5 blocks a night. If I thought Jahlil could protect the rim like Brook I'd kidnap someone for that first pick.

Im not making this pick just with Melo in mind, but it just so happens that Towns complements Melo more to me. No more one way players. We've had Tyson, Amare, JR, Shump, etc. All one way players.

Magic and Duncan were easy fits next to Kareem and Robinson. Dont know why thats being brought up. They won titles after they picked them together, and Im trying to do the same now. Melo still has good years left in him so Im not about to just throw him aside and build around Jah. Towns is a perfect complement to Melo right off the bat and pretty soon will be a 20/10 guy himself. Add a few free agents and other pickups and thats a contender. A Melo/Jah duo is going to need to be surrounded with hard to find defensive studs who arent zeros on offense. Much easier to just take Towns and start a team of two way guys.

Good point on Brook being a decent rim protector, but Ive never been all too enamored with him. Probably because hes slow as hell and rebounds like sh*t. Even if Jah is better than him and Al thats not a guy I want to build around unless he becomes defensive minded. Hed need to be otherworldly on offense for me to like the idea and Im not sure he will be that yet.

Mudiay has no jumper so he automatically cannot play in any type of Jordan or Kobe role (both of whom did most of their damage in the high post). Russ on the other hand has a decent turnaround off one leg (like Dirk) he hits over 6-1 Gs occasionally.

Mudiay seems to have an alright jumper. It needs work but you sell him short a bit. Point is players have been successful in the triangle without being great shooters. No need to box Mudiay in as a "triangle PG". Hes just a guard who we can mold into what we want. He def has better physical tools than Russell which cant be glossed over. Russell plays on a crap team but I still worry if he can get to the basket in the pros if he can barely do it in college.