Game 65: Golden State Warriors (48-12) @ Phoenix Suns (33-31)

[RunDogGun]

IT you ask? Well he went from 4.6 to 7.4 free throw attempts.

[SunsRback4Good]

Dear god, I wish he was still on this team. The FO will pay for their actions I swear.









Green font.

[lilfishi22]

For Mr Poop, and others that don't see what many see: Goran Dragic has doubled his free throw attempts a game since being in Miami, from 2.5 to now 5. Yet his shot attempts have drop from 13 to 10. We draw the contact, we just don't get the calls. I don't know the reason, but we often see a lot of contact with no calls, and touch fouls called against. The amount of contact has nothing to do with low IQ players.

Another example: Harden kicks LeBron in the nuts, and he stays in the game. Morris goes for a block and with Goran's off arm help, Markieff hits Goran in the head, and Morris gets ejected. Same game, Whiteside hits Len twice coming down from a dunk. The second time he hangs on the rim and purposely comes down on Lens head. Len pushes him off, Whiteside tackles Len. Not only does Len get ejected, but also receives a greater fine.

Maybe we lack a star, maybe we come out soft, and the other team comes out aggressive, who knows and who cares. A foul is a foul. You can't let a large amount of contact go on a drive on one end, and call a touch foul on the other end. It happens all too often for us this season. Moreover, the free throw differential in our games have been ridiculous, yet we still draw contact on almost every drive. Losing IT hurts a lot, because he would get to the line better than anyone on our team.

Goran averaged more FTA's last season. With the Suns.

[RunDogGun]

For Mr Poop, and others that don't see what many see: Goran Dragic has doubled his free throw attempts a game since being in Miami, from 2.5 to now 5. Yet his shot attempts have drop from 13 to 10. We draw the contact, we just don't get the calls. I don't know the reason, but we often see a lot of contact with no calls, and touch fouls called against. The amount of contact has nothing to do with low IQ players.

Another example: Harden kicks LeBron in the nuts, and he stays in the game. Morris goes for a block and with Goran's off arm help, Markieff hits Goran in the head, and Morris gets ejected. Same game, Whiteside hits Len twice coming down from a dunk. The second time he hangs on the rim and purposely comes down on Lens head. Len pushes him off, Whiteside tackles Len. Not only does Len get ejected, but also receives a greater fine.

Maybe we lack a star, maybe we come out soft, and the other team comes out aggressive, who knows and who cares. A foul is a foul. You can't let a large amount of contact go on a drive on one end, and call a touch foul on the other end. It happens all too often for us this season. Moreover, the free throw differential in our games have been ridiculous, yet we still draw contact on almost every drive. Losing IT hurts a lot, because he would get to the line better than anyone on our team.

Goran averaged more FTA's last season. With the Suns.

So why not this year? He is/was drawing the same contact. IT's attempts have almost doubled as well, while Knight's have dropped.

[lilfishi22]

For Mr Poop, and others that don't see what many see: Goran Dragic has doubled his free throw attempts a game since being in Miami, from 2.5 to now 5. Yet his shot attempts have drop from 13 to 10. We draw the contact, we just don't get the calls. I don't know the reason, but we often see a lot of contact with no calls, and touch fouls called against. The amount of contact has nothing to do with low IQ players.

Another example: Harden kicks LeBron in the nuts, and he stays in the game. Morris goes for a block and with Goran's off arm help, Markieff hits Goran in the head, and Morris gets ejected. Same game, Whiteside hits Len twice coming down from a dunk. The second time he hangs on the rim and purposely comes down on Lens head. Len pushes him off, Whiteside tackles Len. Not only does Len get ejected, but also receives a greater fine.

Maybe we lack a star, maybe we come out soft, and the other team comes out aggressive, who knows and who cares. A foul is a foul. You can't let a large amount of contact go on a drive on one end, and call a touch foul on the other end. It happens all too often for us this season. Moreover, the free throw differential in our games have been ridiculous, yet we still draw contact on almost every drive. Losing IT hurts a lot, because he would get to the line better than anyone on our team.

Goran averaged more FTA's last season. With the Suns.

So why not this year? He is/was drawing the same contact. IT's attempts have almost doubled as well, while Knight's have dropped.

Style of play.

Goran is going back to his old style where he's the man with the ball. Whereas with the Suns this season, he was playing over 80% as the SG and 11% as the SF and 7%, SEVEN % as a PG. With the Heat's, he's playing 57% as the PG and 43% as the SG. The guy was getting less than half of the possessions when he was on there with Beldsoe and even less when the 3-PG line up was out there.

Knight is shooting a lot more 3's and less 2's, meaning less opportunities to get in the lane. Knight also didn't play a lick of 2-guard with the Bucks but is now playing over 67% in that position.

Thomas on the other hand, is just flat out shooting more and being the only guy who can get any sort of offense off on that team, he's getting all the defensive attention, so defenders are out there trying to stop him. He's always been very capable of drawing fouls .

[RunDogGun]

Goran's usage is almost the same from our team to Miami, and he is taking less shots on Miami. Plus if you look at the advance stats and FTr. holy heck!

Brandon Wright from Dallas to us, drops 1.8 to 1.1, Tolliver's quintuples although his shot less than doubles. Miles seems to be the only exception for his shot attempts are the same but much lower FT attempts. The minutes are lower, and it's probably garbage minutes, but he is shooting less FT attempts.

But it wasn't like Goran and IT weren't drawing contact here.

[Young gun 6]

Goran's usage is almost the same from our team to Miami, and he is taking less shots on Miami. Plus if you look at the advance stats and FTr. holy heck!

Brandon Wright from Dallas to us, drops 1.8 to 1.1, Tolliver's quintuples although his shot less than doubles. Miles seems to be the only exception for his shot attempts are the same but much lower FT attempts. The minutes are lower, and it's probably garbage minutes, but he is shooting less FT attempts.

But it wasn't like Goran and IT weren't drawing contact here.

It's crap. Watching the games (especially bledsoe), I feel like they don't drive anywhere near as much as they should because of those non calls. I thought it was bad last year but this year just seems to be on a whole new level. In saying anything, we all just look like whingers to the refs, league or other teams if we did say something. So instead of continuing that play we as a team seem to shoot longer shots and more 3's which should never happen. A team shouldn't feel like it won't get calls and has to change their game style.

When you become a winning team of likeable guys with at least one star like golden state you get away with so much more ****.

[RunDogGun]

Goran averaged more FTA's last season. With the Suns.

So why not this year? He is/was drawing the same contact. IT's attempts have almost doubled as well, while Knight's have dropped.

Style of play.

Goran is going back to his old style where he's the man with the ball. Whereas with the Suns this season, he was playing over 80% as the SG and 11% as the SF and 7%, SEVEN % as a PG. With the Heat's, he's playing 57% as the PG and 43% as the SG. The guy was getting less than half of the possessions when he was on there with Beldsoe and even less when the 3-PG line up was out there.

Knight is shooting a lot more 3's and less 2's, meaning less opportunities to get in the lane. Knight also didn't play a lick of 2-guard with the Bucks but is now playing over 67% in that position.

Thomas on the other hand, is just flat out shooting more and being the only guy who can get any sort of offense off on that team, he's getting all the defensive attention, so defenders are out there trying to stop him. He's always been very capable of drawing fouls .

IT's rate of change comparing fg/ft increases are 36/61 respectfully. I don't think an increase of 36% from the field should warrant a 61% increase to the line. Maybe no one looked at it before? (isn't rate of change difference/original?)

[Frank Lee]

Come on RefDog.... this has been your maniacal Mantra for the season. And now you are saying Dragic's increase in FTs in Miami is from favorable calls ? I've watched 3-4 Miami games and its clear Dragic has better opportunity to be fouled. He is operating from the top of the key, not stuck in chucker's corner. He is driving more, and frankly, is more aggressive. Fact is Miami got a good point guard, and we lost our only one (well, two if you count Ennis)

I can't hardly watch this team anymore. Nothing has really changed with the ISO s**t. Even TChambers is getting fed up with it.

Did you see the last post game where he basically called the entire team a bunch of Me-Boys ? He has been tactfully criticizing this squad for the past 10-15 games.... but the last one was an accurate flat out double eye poke.


And come on Old Rem .... To say we are a good team says to me, you have not watched the last dozen games. This personnel is sub par in very important qualities... BBIQ, BB Fundamentals, and has no concept of team play. I am close to believing they are almost un-coachable as well. Throw out the soft schedule influenced first half. I'd rank us somewhere from 5-10.

[JTrain]

Since the trade:

Isaiah Thomas 23.4 PER
Goran Dragic 21.1 PER
Miles Plumlee 15.4 PER
Brandon Knight 11.7 PER

[saintEscaton]

Since the trade:

Isaiah Thomas 23.4 PER
Goran Dragic 21.1 PER
Miles Plumlee 15.4 PER
Brandon Knight 11.7 PER

Remember that McDuh isnt just an analytics guy. There's more than meets the eye

[enigmatics]

Since the trade:

Isaiah Thomas 23.4 PER
Goran Dragic 21.1 PER
Miles Plumlee 15.4 PER
Brandon Knight 11.7 PER

This makes me motherfrickin sick to my stomach. Thanks McDildo!

[RunDogGun]

Come on RefDog.... this has been your maniacal Mantra for the season. And now you are saying Dragic's increase in FTs in Miami is from favorable calls ? I've watched 3-4 Miami games and its clear Dragic has better opportunity to be fouled. He is operating from the top of the key, not stuck in chucker's corner. He is driving more, and frankly, is more aggressive. Fact is Miami got a good point guard, and we lost our only one (well, two if you count Ennis)

I can't hardly watch this team anymore. Nothing has really changed with the ISO s**t. Even TChambers is getting fed up with it.

Did you see the last post game where he basically called the entire team a bunch of Me-Boys ? He has been tactfully criticizing this squad for the past 10-15 games.... but the last one was an accurate flat out double eye poke.


And come on Old Rem .... To say we are a good team says to me, you have not watched the last dozen games. This personnel is sub par in very important qualities... BBIQ, BB Fundamentals, and has no concept of team play. I am close to believing they are almost un-coachable as well. Throw out the soft schedule influenced first half. I'd rank us somewhere from 5-10.

You can stop with this corner stuff. If you want to argue my point, please provide some stats to back yourself up. Goran's usage went up from 21% to 22% not a big jump at all, so again, his usage is basically the same. He drove fine here in PHX, and he almost always created contact on those drives. Trying harder, while a bummer because it would have been nice to have here, doesn't change the amount of contact he got here. Unless you have proof that he is getting more contact in Miami, I don't see a reason for his free throws to increase 100%. (Difference over original)

Oh well, again, no one sees it, no big deal to me. I will keep pointing it out when it happens. Btw, the lowly Wolves went to the line twice as many times as us last night, on our home court. But maybe that was just my imagination.

[RunDogGun]

Since the trade:

Isaiah Thomas 23.4 PER
Goran Dragic 21.1 PER
Miles Plumlee 15.4 PER
Brandon Knight 11.7 PER

Plumlee has played five games and only 10 mins per game. The other guys either haven't changed their roles as a player or actually care more now that they are where they want to be, save Knight. Knight will come around, isn't he the only guy in the group that has gotten better every year he has been in the league?

[lilfishi22]

You can stop with this corner stuff. If you want to argue my point, please provide some stats to back yourself up. Goran's usage went up from 21% to 22% not a big jump at all, so again, his usage is basically the same. He drove fine here in PHX, and he almost always created contact on those drives. Trying harder, while a bummer because it would have been nice to have here, doesn't change the amount of contact he got here. Unless you have proof that he is getting more contact in Miami, I don't see a reason for his free throws to increase 100%. (Difference over original)

Oh well, again, no one sees it, no big deal to me. I will keep pointing it out when it happens. Btw, the lowly Wolves went to the line twice as many times as us last night, on our home court. But maybe that was just my imagination.

The point of discussion is the FTA and your contention that it's because of better ref treatment, I don't think it really has any statistical backing either.

Regarding the corner 3's, he attempted 36.6% of his 3PT attempts from the corners this season with the Suns, highest in his career. In the 10 or so games he's played with the Heats, he's attempted 27.3% from the corner 3. Interestingly, this season with the Suns, he was assisted on almost 78% of his 3PTA, while with the Heats, he was assisted on 62.5%, which was in line with his All-NBA season. These stats imply he's taken less 3's from the corner with the Heats and he's also taken more of his attempts unassisted, ie he's not standing in the corner waiting for a pass but rather he's generating those 3's based on his own shot selection.

Regarding USG%, it just shows the % of possessions/plays that ends with the player, it doesn't show where or how. The USG% takes into account both FTA and FGA but differences in either makes very little difference to the final USG% calculations. So while the increase in USG% is negligible, it doesn't actually say anything about whether he's finishing his possession with a 3PT shot, mid range or a drive to the rim. Unfortunately, I only have publicly available so I can't look more closely at his shooting tendency differences with the Suns and Miami. 82games.com only has shooting stats as a season aggregate level and doesn't break it down to differences on the two teams. If anyone else has more in-depth stats, I'd love to see it.

From the few half-games I've watched of the Heats with Goran, it's clear that not only does he have the ball way more often, he also has a lot more say in what happens with those possessions. Basically he's back to his 2013-2014 role of being a primary ball-handler and decision maker. Also, playing significantly more at the PG position (7% vs 57%) means he's defended less often by longer wings/2-guards which have always caused him trouble.

[RunDogGun]

I never said he got better treatment, but in a way I did imply it. He often got contact while playing here, and it was on almost every drive. He didn't shoot a lot of free throws with us, while still drawing a ton of contact. Did 82 games really say that he was waiting for the pass because it was assisted? Couldn't he get the pass in Miami, take a dribble, step back, shoot the three, and then it isn't assisted anymore?

With switches and many screens, it's tough to say who was guarding him at what time. In our game against Miami, Goran often gave the ball to Wade to initiate the offense, even in the back court. Maybe it's because Wade knew the offense better, but the point is he differed the point responsibilities to Wade, just like he did with Bledsoe and IT, even when he grabbed the rebound, making him the off guard. He still increased his free throw 100%.

So now do IT. IT increased his free throw attempts by 61%. Knight's rate of change is a 27% decrease.

Again, the point is/was all of our guards drew contact on almost every drive, and they didn't get the calls. You watched the games, you have to admit that they didn't get the calls. However, I did find it strange that both Goran and IT have either doubled or almost doubled their free throw attempts since leaving, while Knight's have decreased. But I would like to know if Bledsoe's has increased since he has taken over almost all of the point responsibilities.

I have no doubt that both Goran and IT are drawing the same kind of contact they did here, both are good at doing it, as is Bledsoe.

But I appreciate the research you did. Now can you explain the touch to tackle calls? Why Morris was ejected, while Harden wasn't? Why Len received a greater fine, when Whiteside initiated the contact twice, and has also been in two other altercations since? And finally, the free throw differentials.

[lilfishi22]

I never said he got better treatment, but in a way I did imply it. He often got contact while playing here, and it was on almost every drive. He didn't shoot a lot of free throws with us, while still drawing a ton of contact. Did 82 games really say that he was waiting for the pass because it was assisted? Couldn't he get the pass in Miami, take a dribble, step back, shoot the three, and then it isn't assisted anymore?

I didn't get any stats from 82games because they didn't show the difference between Miami Goran and Suns Goran.

My point about the assisted/unassisted 3's was more about whether he was camping in the corner or not. When he was here, with a very high assisted corner 3 rate, it suggested he made less decisions and took the 3's when it got to him. Just the fact alone that he took way more 3's in the corner than ever before in his career (highest before this season was 20%) while getting over 3/4's of those attempts assisted, shows where he's been placed to "set up" ie waiting to receive his pass. Your scenario of taking a dribble and stepping back in the corner wouldn't explain the big difference in assisted rates and attempts in the corner.

I can't say for certain until we get stats to show his drive attempts in Miami vs Phx but I think there are enough indirect stats to infer he's got the ball in his hands more and making more plays. Also the number of games he's played for the Heats are still a fairly small sample size. Might be worth revisiting this at the end of the season.

With switches and many screens, it's tough to say who was guarding him at what time. In our game against Miami, Goran often gave the ball to Wade to initiate the offense, even in the back court. Maybe it's because Wade knew the offense better, but the point is he differed the point responsibilities to Wade, just like he did with Bledsoe and IT, even when he grabbed the rebound, making him the off guard. He still increased his free throw 100%.

Difference is there's only ever one player he would defer to, just like last season with Bledsoe. This season with the Suns, he would defer to both Bledsoe and IT. There would also be multiple possessions where he wouldn't even touch the ball at all and would just be on the floor as a floor spacer.

So now do IT. IT increased his free throw attempts by 61%. Knight's rate of change is a 27% decrease.

Again, the point is/was all of our guards drew contact on almost every drive, and they didn't get the calls. You watched the games, you have to admit that they didn't get the calls. However, I did find it strange that both Goran and IT have either doubled or almost doubled their free throw attempts since leaving, while Knight's have decreased. But I would like to know if Bledsoe's has increased since he has taken over almost all of the point responsibilities.

His USG% is higher than ever and that's expected when he's the only player that can generate offense. He's always been good at drawing fouls and now that he's getting more defensive attention and he knows he's not going to score as easily as he can draw fouls so he's just using that attention to his advantage. Does it fully explain the difference? No, but again it's still a fairly small sample size so this should be revisited at the end of the season with a larger sample of games.

Knight is still learning the system and on a team where jumpshooters are rewarded with possessions over driving to the basket, we should expect to see new players see a drop in FTA's. Perhaps when he gets more comfortable with our schemes, he'll be more inclined to do his own thing and take driving opportunities when they are there.

There were no changes to Bledsoe's FTA per game. Although per36 could be different, I haven't looked that far.

I have no doubt that both Goran and IT are drawing the same kind of contact they did here, both are good at doing it, as is Bledsoe.

But I appreciate the research you did. Now can you explain the touch to tackle calls? Why Morris was ejected, while Harden wasn't? Why Len received a greater fine, when Whiteside initiated the contact twice, and has also been in two other altercations since? And finally, the free throw differentials.

I think they get the same contact, but I don't necessarily think the difference in FTA is because they are getting more favourable calls. It may be a small part but I think it's more because they are in a system that favors their style which is to get in the paint. What we REALLY need is a FTA per drive stat, that would settle everything.

As for the calls and decisions made in relation to Len, Harden, Whiteside. I have no insight on the decision making process within that led to their a penalties. I'd rather not going into

[JTrain]

Please give me 1 reason other than height why Kyrie Irving is a starting PG and Isaiah Thomas isn't.

You watching TNT tonight?

[RunDogGun]

Well advance stats on Basketball Reference does have a FTr,based on free throws per fg attempts. Goran went from 19% to 50%, this season switching teams. Last year, his best percentage in that category was 38%. I understand it's a small sample size, but come on, it's quite a difference even from last season, when you are implying his role in Miami is similar to what it was here last season.

I haven't looked up IT's yet, but he was our best at getting to the line, so that margin might be closer.

[RunDogGun]

Isaiah's went from 41% to 49%, this season. His last season's was 38%