Thibs Future With The Bulls

[kingkirk]

Don't forget Rose and his matador defense that has killed our perimeter defense. Thibs knew early on that the defense had issues and tried to remedy it (preseason rant).

Thibs is using sticks and glue to try to assemble a group who can defend and its tough w/ this current roster. It's almost a miracle what he has gotten out of this team considering the obstacles.

To me, the defense has been the biggest issue for this team all season. Yes, we have weaknesses on the wings that can be exposed, but what team doesn’t have some form of weakness that could hurt them come playoff time?

I suppose my position prior to the season was as follows:

1. I didn’t want to have a top 1-2 defense. I wanted to sit in that 4-7 range whilst having our offense rise to 7-10. I wanted balance.
2. Last season, with Boozer & Augustin, we still managed to have the 2nd best defense in the league. With Gasol & Rose coming into the fold, I didn’t think those 2 would be worse than those guys

The offense has certainly been better. Much better. I have my issues with it, but it’s pretty good, especially with guys constantly missing time and with the tweaks we’ve made to it all season long, like we’re doing now with Noah running more of the show again.

I didn’t think Rose was going to be this bad on defense. I didn’t see that one coming. He has been really, really bad, and it’s highlighted the poor defense of Gasol as a rim protector. When you having opposing guards coming into the lanes with speed, it’s a lot to ask of an aging guy who already has suspect defense to somehow close it out. The disappointing thing with Derrick is that he has shown that he can play great defense. That leads me to believe that he is picking his spots as to when to play hard and when not to. If that’s the case, it’s bad leadership. Why would others follow if he won’t?

Pure speculation on my behalf, but your lead guy sets the tone. He carries the coaches word and implements it on the floor, with other following in behind him. He hasn’t consistently done that this season. I’m not blaming Derrick solely for the message being lost between coach and players, but I don’t think it can be ignored, either.

Noah playing the 4 hasn’t been ideal. He is better suited at the 5, but it hasn’t been the primary issue for us. If we had a healthy Noah playing the 4 all season, I don’t think it’s really an issue.

So, I saw us falling away a little. I wanted us to fall away a little. I didn’t expect us to be ranked this low. I didn’t expect the Philadelphia 76ers to have a better defensive rating than the Bulls. With the way Boston and Utah are improving on defense, both of whom have moved up a lot recently, we could be down to 15th or 16th pretty easily.

[Rerisen]

The disappointing thing with Derrick is that he has shown that he can play great defense. That leads me to believe that he is picking his spots as to when to play hard and when not to.

This will be a silver lining in the playoffs though if Rose can play D every game like he did vs Kyrie this year, then our defense will be better than its looked at least at PG.

[johnnyvann840]

The disappointing thing with Derrick is that he has shown that he can play great defense. That leads me to believe that he is picking his spots as to when to play hard and when not to.

This will be a silver lining in the playoffs though if Rose can play D every game like he did vs Kyrie this year, then our defense will be better than its looked at least at PG.

You're both right. I think if Derrick is feeling good and Noah can play like he has been lately, and Taj comes back fully healthy, we could see a totally different defense in the playoffs. A top 5 defense. Those three really make such a difference when they are engaged. All the difference

[kingkirk]

The disappointing thing with Derrick is that he has shown that he can play great defense. That leads me to believe that he is picking his spots as to when to play hard and when not to.

This will be a silver lining in the playoffs though if Rose can play D every game like he did vs Kyrie this year, then our defense will be better than its looked at least at PG.

You're both right. I think if Derrick is feeling good and Noah can play like he has been lately, and Taj comes back fully healthy, we could see a totally different defense in the playoffs. A top 5 defense. Those three really make such a difference when they are engaged. All the difference

Whilst I agree with all of this, put me in the group that says they're going to need to see it first before they believe it.

Here's to hoping.

[Axl Rose]

you are obsessed with the word whilst

[TheStig]

And now we have Bill Simmons piling on. Not that Bill Simmons is an authority on anything or has any NBA experience outside the media, but he does have a voice that gets heard by millions on national television also. It's pretty big and to the rest of the nation, the FO is being painted as very petty and underhanded also.

But now that the very high profile media has called out the Bulls on this situation, it almost presents them with a fall on the sword type dare concerning Thibs. As if they do go ahead and fire him or part ways in any fashion, it will be like they are confirming all the bad press these guys have put out against them. I see no way the FO can now get rid of Thibs and not come out looking like the bad guys.

It will be interesting to see how they proceed now that the noose has been set. If they put their neck in it anyway, then we know things got extremely bad, or if they try to defy all these accusations and work it out with Thibs, thus proving all the media wrong.

Rewind to 2013. Bulls leak that Rose has been cleared. Reggie Rose blasts Chicago. Bulls don't ever do that to Rose again.

IMO, people learned a lesson with that exchange. I think all of this is far more calculated that is being credit for. I think the Bulls were trying to lay down a narrative to justify firing a popular and well regarded coach. Thibs has been returning fire for a while to change the narrative. It really seems that he wants out and is just laying some groundwork of his own so that he can blame his removal on an unprofessional front office.

Good analogy with setting the noose. The Bulls front office can certainly fire Thibodeau and keep their jobs but their next hire will be their last if it doesn't work out. If they hire someone who doesn't work out, the new coach won't be the one getting blamed for it.

Sorry, that'll never happen. The Bulls FO has no accountability other than staying under the LT and fielding a playoff team. What does another coach going bad change how poorly things are ending with Thibs and how they ended with Skiles and VDN? All of them were GarPax hires. All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

[Rerisen]

Sorry, that'll never happen. The Bulls FO has no accountability other than staying under the LT and fielding a playoff team. What does another coach going bad change how poorly things are ending with Thibs and how they ended with Skiles and VDN? All of them were GarPax hires. All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

Ayup if then next coach fails it will just be shuffled blame and more fog of war. "Oh Hoiberg was a Gar hire, this time Pax is choosing the coach."

[ADDinChicago]

When Pax does dismiss Thibs, this board might actually explode.

From the half that know how stupid the decision is. The other half wont 'get' how bad it was until Pax is back sitting up there waiting for the Bulls card to be pulled on lottery night.

It would only come to that if the East magically became a strong conference in one night. One of us could coach this current Bulls team into at least the 8th spot.

Again, some act like Thibs is some coaching god who can't be replaced. Which he most certainly is not.

[ADDinChicago]

From the half that know how stupid the decision is. The other half wont 'get it' until Pax is back sitting up there waiting for the Bulls card to be pulled on lottery night.

I'm one of Thibs biggest supporters but a coach just doesn't have that much impact, IMHO. A sock puppet could coach the Bulls to the playoffs next year #ifhealthy. It normally takes about 2-3 years for an engrained system to fall apart.

Not saying it happens next year or the year after that, but, I see a Thibs firing as a move that pushes other dominoes to fall (Rose / Noah leaving?, Taj / Pau trade's, blow-up for rebuilds, etc).

In what sense? That those players are so blindly linked to Thibs? Why would they trade Pau who's on a very team friendly contract? Taj I could see being moved, but that's because of the logjam at the 4. Rose & Noah are their own players and people. Both seem to like Chicago and the Bulls. They like Thibs, but I think they, like most players, understand the business.

[ADDinChicago]

But now that the very high profile media has called out the Bulls on this situation, it almost presents them with a fall on the sword type dare concerning Thibs. As if they do go ahead and fire him or part ways in any fashion, it will be like they are confirming all the bad press these guys have put out against them. I see no way the FO can now get rid of Thibs and not come out looking like the bad guys.

It will be interesting to see how they proceed now that the noose has been set. If they put their neck in it anyway, then we know things got extremely bad, or if they try to defy all these accusations and work it out with Thibs, thus proving all the media wrong.

Rewind to 2013. Bulls leak that Rose has been cleared. Reggie Rose blasts Chicago. Bulls don't ever do that to Rose again.

IMO, people learned a lesson with that exchange. I think all of this is far more calculated that is being credit for. I think the Bulls were trying to lay down a narrative to justify firing a popular and well regarded coach. Thibs has been returning fire for a while to change the narrative. It really seems that he wants out and is just laying some groundwork of his own so that he can blame his removal on an unprofessional front office.

Good analogy with setting the noose. The Bulls front office can certainly fire Thibodeau and keep their jobs but their next hire will be their last if it doesn't work out. If they hire someone who doesn't work out, the new coach won't be the one getting blamed for it.

Sorry, that'll never happen. The Bulls FO has no accountability other than staying under the LT and fielding a playoff team. What does another coach going bad change how poorly things are ending with Thibs and how they ended with Skiles and VDN? All of them were GarPax hires. All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

I thought VDN was a Reinsdorf "I want to go as cheap as possible on this and Steve Kerr said he's a nice guy" hire?

[johnnyvann840]

All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

Wasn't Skiles the one fired on Christmas Eve? Maybe I remember it wrong.


yeah, I know, it was "mutual".. and it was time... but it was X-Mas Eve.

[ADDinChicago]

All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

Wasn't Skiles the one fired on Christmas Eve? Maybe I remember it wrong.


yeah, I know, it was "mutual".. and it was time... but it was X-Mas Eve.

He was... after asking the FO to let him go 2 weeks before. They then told him to please stick it out... then he got a Christmas gift.

[TheStig]

All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

Wasn't Skiles the one fired on Christmas Eve? Maybe I remember it wrong.


yeah, I know, it was "mutual".. and it was time... but it was X-Mas Eve.

Yes but I meant that it didn't turn into a national scandal. Pax chocking VDN was an embarrassment. This Thibs firing and back in forth in the media is an embarrassment. Skiles was just let go. By comparison it is their biggest success in humiliating a coach.

[TheStig]

Rewind to 2013. Bulls leak that Rose has been cleared. Reggie Rose blasts Chicago. Bulls don't ever do that to Rose again.

IMO, people learned a lesson with that exchange. I think all of this is far more calculated that is being credit for. I think the Bulls were trying to lay down a narrative to justify firing a popular and well regarded coach. Thibs has been returning fire for a while to change the narrative. It really seems that he wants out and is just laying some groundwork of his own so that he can blame his removal on an unprofessional front office.

Good analogy with setting the noose. The Bulls front office can certainly fire Thibodeau and keep their jobs but their next hire will be their last if it doesn't work out. If they hire someone who doesn't work out, the new coach won't be the one getting blamed for it.

Sorry, that'll never happen. The Bulls FO has no accountability other than staying under the LT and fielding a playoff team. What does another coach going bad change how poorly things are ending with Thibs and how they ended with Skiles and VDN? All of them were GarPax hires. All of them ended very poorly with the FO being embarrassed nationally (not so much with Skiles).

I thought VDN was a Reinsdorf "I want to go as cheap as possible on this and Steve Kerr said he's a nice guy" hire?

No, they picked him over Thibs.

[Mech Engineer]

In an ideal situation...Reinsdorf steps in and demotes/get rid of Gar and keeps Pax. He would bump up Paxson to a more consulting role on draft picks so that the Bulls organization does not lose his scouting skills.

They hire a new GM who is more into analytics, has the pulse of the league, connected and primarily can grow in his job/work with Thibs. Gar even said he relies on good old scouting more than analytics and he has a few stats he monitors and that's it for analytics. He doesn't have to be the 76ers GM who has gone crazy on analytics but you need a GM who can complement Pax's skills of scouting rather than have the same skills.

It doesn't mean Thibs is some god or given full authority. The new GM should be able to work well with him but also can fire Thibs if necessary. But, the GM cannot be stupid enough to fight with a good coach with half of his contract remaining. I think the minutes thing is not the only issue between them. It is not that simple, IMO. There is a lot more ego fighting between Gar and Thibs.

This team needs a FO who can draft well, trade well, sign free agents and be creative in trades not just during draft day. The FO just cannot keep going under the cap every 3/4 years which basically means you have to choose between good players rather than add good players.

Whether the Cleveland model will work or not....what Griffin has done there to pull off trades for established veterans is impressive. I understand the Bulls were not in a position to do trades during the deadline but they have to build the team using every process available(draft, FA, draft day trades, summer trades, mid-season trades etc..).

Certain talents can be obtained with only trades at the right time. If not, it comes to situations like McDermott playing a huge wing role on a contending team.

[TheJordanRule]

In an ideal situation...Reinsdorf steps in and demotes/get rid of Gar and keeps Pax. He would bump up Paxson to a more consulting role on draft picks so that the Bulls organization does not lose his scouting skills.

They hire a new GM who is more into analytics, has the pulse of the league, connected and primarily can grow in his job/work with Thibs. Gar even said he relies on good old scouting more than analytics and he has a few stats he monitors and that's it for analytics. He doesn't have to be the 76ers GM who has gone crazy on analytics but you need a GM who can complement Pax's skills of scouting rather than have the same skills.

It doesn't mean Thibs is some god or given full authority. The new GM should be able to work well with him but also can fire Thibs if necessary. But, the GM cannot be stupid enough to fight with a good coach with half of his contract remaining. I think the minutes thing is not the only issue between them. It is not that simple, IMO. There is a lot more ego fighting between Gar and Thibs.

This team needs a FO who can draft well, trade well, sign free agents and be creative in trades not just during draft day. The FO just cannot keep going under the cap every 3/4 years which basically means you have to choose between good players rather than add good players.

Whether the Cleveland model will work or not....what Griffin has done there to pull off trades for established veterans is impressive. I understand the Bulls were not in a position to do trades during the deadline but they have to build the team using every process available(draft, FA, draft day trades, summer trades, mid-season trades etc..).

Certain talents can be obtained with only trades at the right time. If not, it comes to situations like McDermott playing a huge wing role on a contending team.

Great post. I'm glad you don't let the front office skate by and pin everything on Thibs. Unfortunately we have too many fans who fall for these age old media tricks, without critically analyzing which group of people is more culpable and / or replaceable.