PG:#WEOWNTHENORTH

[DannyNoonan1221]

It seems like there is a lot of contradiction going on here. When rose/jimmy went down the obvious response was "hope they come back with enough time to create some chemistry".

Now the team is building chemistry without them, specifically running the offense through Noah at the top. And yet people are saying that can't happen in the playoffs- it has to be Rose. Well, you welcome back rose, you welcome back essentially a whole new offense and kill most if not all the chemistry we seem to be building.

I am hesitant to hand the reigns over to Rose on the offensive end- not because I don't trust Rose, but because I don't fully trust Noah to find himself a role offensively. With Rose back, I think the Gasol/Noah combo difficulties are magnified.

It's a tough decision the team is going to have to figure out. How much change do you risk at the start of the playoffs to get the ball into Rose's hands?

We already saw last year Noah running offense doesnt work in playoff. So Rose still needs to be our main point guard/playmaker. No matter what. Noah running offense is great backup plan. It works now, but still is backup plan. Rose is most effective with ball in his hands and making plays. PnR with Gasol worked as charm this season. I want Noah to run bench unit. Rose should really do great job with driving and breaking first line defense and finding open guy. People really forgot how Rose was great. It's shame.
Playoffs is different beast.

You are missing my point. I am not arguing that the offense should be run through noah. The offense SHOULD be run through Rose. But running the offense through a Rose-coming-back-from-injury has it's question marks, mainly- where does that leave Noah on the offensive end?

Rose got hurt just as Noah was starting to show signs of last-year Noah. Noah has been developing some chemistry with the guys who are playing currently. Then, just games before the playoffs start, we are going to throw Rose back into the mix and Noah is going to have to start from scratch to find his "playoff niche" at that end of the floor.

It is not about what Rose can do or what can Noah do individually- it is about can we really expect all these pieces to just mold that quickly when every time they have built somewhat of a foundation a major piece has been removed?

Stating that I have somehow forgotten how great rose was, or that I don't realize the playoffs are a different situation, is just a general statement that doesn't really take into account my post.

[MC3]

That's why I think for Noah maybe the best would be if he would start games from the bench, just like Mirotic does but still play good minutes even with starters. Noah has chemistry with Niko, McD, Snell, he makes plays for those guy. Those really are his guys. I dont know would Noah accept to be benched. When Rose is in the game, he should be only offensive rebounder, but when Rose is out at the bench, he should be our playmaker. It would be the best we mix thing up. And mix up the lineup. Noah has problem with Rose. Just as Noah has problem with Gasol. Those are bad combinations. Noah works best with Niko for instance. Noah is offensive liability there with Rose leading the unit, also killing our spacing. Something needs to be done. And someone needs to swallow their pride, for me it's Noah. Rose is still our superstar.

[WindyCityBorn]

Before this season, he made it clear that it wasn't very likely that a rookie would make good contributions to a championship caliber team, but given the emergence of Niko, I really hope that he doesn't hold that same type of thinking.

Thibs is better than that. Look at how he treated Niko yesterday. Instead of giving Taj his usual 25 minutes, he gave Taj only a taste. No way he does that except for the reason of keeping Niko playing big minutes. Mirotic surely will be a key part of Thibs' playoff intentions.

Now that does make the rotation of the bigs tricky. I think Taj gets squeezed some, plus Niko gets significant minutes at the 3 spot as Mike's backup.

Snell will probably lose the most minutes with Niko playing the 3 again. There is no way to give everyone that can contribute a fair amount of minutes. But Thibs should trust Snell enough now to actually give Jimmy some decent breaks.

Plus side is we have the personnel to matchup with anything a team might throw at us or weaknesses that we could exploit.

[JeremyB0001]

So the Bulls had the 21st best offense with Noah on the court, and that's supposed to be positive...?

One player transforming an offense from horrific to mediocre indicates that the player is a huge a positive offensively.

If Keith Bogans was the fifth starter for the Warriors and he only caused their offense to drop from 1st to 7th when he entered the game, would you say that he's a great offensive player because the Warriors offense is good with him?

Speaking of points per 100 possessions, the Bulls this year score more with Rose on the court and score less with Noah on the court.

The offense has been 1.8 points better with Rose on the floor. Last year, it was 7.1 points better with Noah on the floor. So Noah improved the offense last year nearly four times as much as Derrick has improved it this year. This year, until recently, the offense with Jo on the court consisted of him clogging up the lane or playing on the perimeter while his defender plays off of him; his strength is not playing off-the-ball at power forward. It's no surprise that going away from that strategy would improve the offense. The offense has functioned well when Noah acts as a playmaker.

But you're missing the point by turning this into a Derrick versus Noah debate. Derrick playing and Jo passing out of the high post are not mutually exclusive; the Bulls can do both.

[WindyCityBorn]

That's why I think for Noah maybe the best would be if he would start games from the bench, just like Mirotic does but still play good minutes even with starters. Noah has chemistry with Niko, McD, Snell, he makes plays for those guy. Those really are his guys. I dont know would Noah accept to be benched. When Rose is in the game, he should be only offensive rebounder, but when Rose is out at the bench, he should be our playmaker. It would be the best we mix thing up. And mix up the lineup. Noah has problem with Rose. Just as Noah has problem with Gasol. Those are bad combinations. Noah works best with Niko for instance. Noah is offensive liability there with Rose leading the unit, also killing our spacing. Something needs to be done. And someone needs to swallow their pride, for me it's Noah. Rose is still our superstar.

I don't see a problem with Noah in starting lineup. Gasol is a very good mid-range shooter so it's not like both bigs are camping in the paint. I don't think we have had enough time with our healthy starting 5 to judge how well they fit to be honest.

[Chi town]

Tony Snell looked worse than Doug THIS SEASON. Now look at Tony. Tony looked good in SL and so did Doug. Doug has had some solid play of late. Very shortsighted evals for a player that has been hurt and out for much of the season. Don't understand this pervasive thought that "time is running out" and he is borderline bust.

He's Doug F******* McDermott. He'll be fine. Watch.

I really like what Jo is doing with those two this season. I don't know if it's by Thibs instructions or not, but Jo is playing 2 man with them right now & trying to get them easy looks to get them going. Plus you can see him encouraging both of them relentlessly. Really cool to watch.

Very true. Noah is looking for them whereas Brooks is freezing them out.

[Rerisen]

Not even really focusing the high amount of assists, but just that energy on both sides is the Noah the team hasn't had most of the season. They've had him more often than not recently though.

As far as Noah running the offense, it probably wouldn't work in the postseason. It's a fun regular season thing to enjoy, particularly when you're missing your two main ball handlers. It's a lot easier to guard a center who can't shoot or really score, and is purely looking to pass when a team puts their mind to it in a series. Noah running the offense is more of a wildcard weapon a team should use, rather than the main weapon.

Likewise, do people ever watch the opposing team or realize that they have a 50% say in every game?

I mean Toronto played absolutely horrific defense, and have been for a while, that is why Noah carved them up like he did. In the playoffs, you will quickly be facing quality defensive teams that aren't going to fall asleep like that.

At that point, predictable backdoors, or lobbing it over stupidly fronting bigs, are not going to cut it as foundation of your offense. At that point you need unpredictable creativeness to stymie defenses that have prepared for all your basic looks already.

[Rerisen]

When I compliment the ball movement thats not to say that Noah should be running the offense.

What I want is for Derrick to make the same reads as Noah does.

Noah and Rose PnR on top of the key creates SO much space if you surround them with Niko, Snell and Jimmy for example.

Rose can't make the same reads because he doesn't see the same defense.

When Noah has the ball, no one is clogging the paint, because Jo's man is paying attention to Jo. When someone else has the ball, like Derrick, suddenly there is an extra defender (Jo's man!) usually playing safety right in the paint. This clogs up the passing and driving lanes and its the ugly side of Noah's offensive game. He is virtually no threat off ball.

As far as taking both Jo and Derrick to the top, it's an option, we did it in 2011 a ton, but the problem is Derrick + Pau pick and pop has been far deadlier. And now we have Niko too, who also has far more potential (in a Dirk like fashion) to create an unstoppable high PnR with a dangerous PG.

[Rerisen]

Something else is being drastically overlooked in this Noah/Rose navel gazing.

And its the production of the starting SF.

Prior to the last 2 wins, the Bulls just lost 6 of the 7 prior games. Where were the raves for the personnel and offense in that stretch?

Here's the big difference the last 2 games, Mike Dunleavy shot the heck out of the ball! (15-27, 8-14 from 3, 21 PPG).

While in the previous 7 games, he was a virtual no show (13-35, averaging 6 PPG).

The Bulls have about 10 players in the rotation any given night, and in the playoffs the team is going to rise or fall on the performance of ALL those 10 players. It's not just about Rose, its not just about Noah running offense or not.

[DanTown8587]

Rose should play his minutes and then Noah should lead a second unit that conists of like Kirk, Niko, Snell, and Dunleavy. Fairly good defense and a lot of activity off the ball for Jo.

[Rerisen]

Rose should play his minutes and then Noah should lead a second unit that conists of like Kirk, Niko, Snell, and Dunleavy. Fairly good defense and a lot of activity off the ball for Jo.

This almost begs the question if Noah should be starting.

Or at least if Pau and Noah should be starting, they become problematic for Derrick, a guy who's game is to drive.

Next year, I think we really need to look at this, once Niko is even more seasoned than now. And he's already making you wonder.

[NDave79]

Rose should play his minutes and then Noah should lead a second unit that conists of like Kirk, Niko, Snell, and Dunleavy. Fairly good defense and a lot of activity off the ball for Jo.

This almost begs the question if Noah should be starting.

Or at least if Pau and Noah should be starting, they become problematic for Derrick, a guy who's game is to drive.

Next year, I think we really need to look at this, once Niko is even more seasoned than now. And he's already making you wonder.

I think starting Niko next year would benefit Rose, Jimmy and Noah (assuming he also started) quite a bit. Niko's perimeter game opens up so much space for these guys driving games. Also, having both your bigs capable of leading the break consistently is quite a weapon.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I don't think it's a surprise that the team plays harder and with more energy when everyone is touching the ball. Noah in particular. Earlier in the year he had no role in the offense, and his whole game was suffering as a result.

The Bulls have scored more, scored more efficiently, and won games at a higher clip with Rose than without Rose this year.

And that has nothing do with missing Butler and Gibson too? Or are we going to ignore that, and still act under the laughable idea that Rose carries the Bulls?

Fortunately for everyone, NBA games are not decided on your slanted idea on which players are playing hard and which are not.

Yeah, it's pretty objective. Sorry. If you think the Bulls were playing hard when they were giving up 110 points per game to the Orlando's of the league, think again. It's not too hard to tell if a player is fighting over a pick.

[GetBuLLish]

So the Bulls had the 21st best offense with Noah on the court, and that's supposed to be positive...?

One player transforming an offense from horrific to mediocre indicates that the player is a huge a positive offensively.

First, 21st is not mediocre. It's below average. Bottom third in the league, aka lottery team. Noah lifted the offense from putrid to bad. Nothing to write home about.

Second, show me where I said Noah was not a positive over his backup last year. You won't be able to.

Noah-centric offense was the only thing Thibs could turn to last year. But a Noah-centric offense will never, ever be good enough to win a championship. The only time a team should ever run a Noah-centric offense is if the team really lacks offensive talent, i.e. last year's Bulls.

But the more offensive talent a team has, the less it makes sense to run an offense through Noah. When you have a lineup of Rose-Butler-Dunleavy-Noah-Gasol/Mirotic, no competent NBA coach will decide to run the offense through Noah.

I mean, do people actually understand what the "Noah offense" consists of? I'll break it down. It consists of two options:
1) Backdoor cut; or
2) Pass to a wing/guard who curls around Noah as he sets a screen.

That's basically it. And when both options are covered, here's what happens: Noah holds the ball, holds the ball, holds the ball, and then passes it to a player who has to throw up a desperation shot with the shot clock running down. This happens frequently.

You really don't need statistical evidence to understand that this type of offense will not heed good results, especially in the playoffs.

Nevertheless, we do have tons of that statistical evidence illustrating this very fact. Yet still there are somehow people clamoring for more Noah ball. It's just gotten ridiculous.

If Keith Bogans was the fifth starter for the Warriors and he only caused their offense to drop from 1st to 7th when he entered the game, would you say that he's a great offensive player because the Warriors offense is good with him?

The offense has been 1.8 points better with Rose on the floor. Last year, it was 7.1 points better with Noah on the floor. So Noah improved the offense last year nearly four times as much as Derrick has improved it this year.

Don't know what you're trying to prove by either of these points..

This year, until recently, the offense with Jo on the court consisted of him clogging up the lane or playing on the perimeter while his defender plays off of him; his strength is not playing off-the-ball at power forward. It's no surprise that going away from that strategy would improve the offense. The offense has functioned well when Noah acts as a playmaker.

Has it really? The Bulls have lost 6 of the past 9 games. And are 6-8 since Rose went down, with two of those wins coming against two of the worst teams in the league.

But you're missing the point by turning this into a Derrick versus Noah debate. Derrick playing and Jo passing out of the high post are not mutually exclusive; the Bulls can do both.

The Bulls should do very little of using Jo as the offensive hub. They were using very little of it before and the results were substantially better. When Rose and Butler come back, we will significantly cut down on using Jo in this capacity and rightly so.

[GetBuLLish]

And that has nothing do with missing Butler and Gibson too? Or are we going to ignore that, and still act under the laughable idea that Rose carries the Bulls?

It is you that is pretending that only Rose has been out. It is you that has pinned the (non-existent) increase in effort solely to Rose being out, and not either Butler or Gibson being out.

I am simply operating under the assumptions that form the basis of your illogical belief and using those assumptions against you.

Yeah, it's pretty objective. Sorry. If you think the Bulls were playing hard when they were giving up 110 points per game to the Orlando's of the league, think again. It's not too hard to tell if a player is fighting over a pick.

So despite the fact that the Bulls are 6-8 since Rose went down, you can objectively tell us that they are nonetheless playing with more effort. And you can also objectively pinpoint the cause of this increased effort to Rose's absence.

Got it.