Did RW found the triple-double recipe and exposed it to the world?

[bondom34]

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza but Curry doesn't lose much much more while playing with Green, Thompson, and Bogut who are all good defensively, two of three I'd say better than Ariza.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza but Curry doesn't lose much much more while playing with Green, Thompson, and Bogut who are all good defensively, two of three I'd say better than Ariza.

And Iggy too. And Iggy, Green, and Bogut are all unquestionably better than Ariza. He does get to play with Howard again, but with his limitations its clear he wasn't and isn't going to have the defensive impact he typically has.

I didn't mean to derail this thread with talk of Ariza, but DPOY talk was

[lorak]

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza

Who said that?

[bondom34]

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza

Who said that?

No one, I'm speaking realtivelywith the remainder of the post you cut off. If the argument is Harden is playing with Ariza, then Curry has at least three or four better teammates.

[nickr91]

The triple double is honestly the most overrated stat in the game and its quite disgusting to watch a player deliberately aim for it every game by trying stat pad every rebound and assist they can get.

A 25/12/5 game with 2 TOs on good efficiency is better than a 35/10/10 game on poor efficiency and with 8 TOs.
WB is playing great but not as great as some people think.

Agreed the triple double is overrated and that a 25/12/5 game on good efficiency is better than 35/10/10 on bad efficiency but Westbrook has been playing out of his mind. It's one of the best stretches I've ever seen anyone play.

[lorak]

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza

Who said that?

No one, I'm speaking realtivelywith the remainder of the post you cut off. If the argument is Harden is playing with Ariza, then Curry has at least three or four better teammates.

But who presented such argument? I think you misinterpretate what was said about Ariza (he's awfully underrated, as it is often the case with defensively oriented players). Bottom line, Trevor is not mediocre and if someone is saying that, then his argumentation is dishonest, because he wants to Harden looks better. And there's really no need to do so, because he and Curry are clearly two the most valuable players this year and choosing one over another is like flip a coin.

[bondom34]

Who said that?

No one, I'm speaking realtivelywith the remainder of the post you cut off. If the argument is Harden is playing with Ariza, then Curry has at least three or four better teammates.

But who presented such argument? I think you misinterpretate what was said about Ariza (he's awfully underrated, as it is often the case with defensively oriented players). Bottom line, Trevor is not mediocre and if someone is saying that, then his argumentation is dishonest, because he wants to Harden looks better. And there's really no need to do so, because he and Curry are clearly two the most valuable players this year and choosing one over another is like flip a coin.

I'd completely agree Curry vs. Harden is a toss up, I just don't think the supporting casts are close.

[Texas Chuck]

[ I think you misinterpretate what was said about Ariza (he's awfully underrated, as it is often the case with defensively oriented players). Bottom line, Trevor is not mediocre and if someone is saying that, then his argumentation is dishonest, because he wants to Harden looks better. And there's really no need to do so, because he and Curry are clearly two the most valuable players this year and choosing one over another is like flip a coin.

You can use my name--I stand by what I post.

Ariza is a mediocre player this year. He defends okay, but his shooting has been really off since his hot start. And even if you disagree with me referring to him as mediocre--its pretty obvious that's a far more accurate representation of his play this year than DPOY....

And I certainly didn't intend to slight him to prop up Harden. Harden's play absolutely speaks for itself. I only mentioned Ariza because he's been the 2nd most significant player on the team when everything is taken into account and it shows how much Harden has in fact carried that team. But my case for Harden winning the MVP was never built on trying to take down Ariza--don't talk about others misrepresenting things and then make comments like that. Just ask me to clarify my comments--I've never been one to shy away from what I think.

[lorak]

No one, I'm speaking realtivelywith the remainder of the post you cut off. If the argument is Harden is playing with Ariza, then Curry has at least three or four better teammates.

But who presented such argument? I think you misinterpretate what was said about Ariza (he's awfully underrated, as it is often the case with defensively oriented players). Bottom line, Trevor is not mediocre and if someone is saying that, then his argumentation is dishonest, because he wants to Harden looks better. And there's really no need to do so, because he and Curry are clearly two the most valuable players this year and choosing one over another is like flip a coin.

I'd completely agree Curry vs. Harden is a toss up, I just don't think the supporting casts are close.

1. You didn't answer the question about who presented such argument. Please don't ignore this question.

2. Of course they (supporting casts) are not close and we see that in results as Warriors SRS is almost 7 points better! (what is really, really huge difference.) But that doesn't change the fact, that we should give credit where it's deserved - and that's the case here with Ariza, who as we all can see is awfully underrated, while in fact he is one of the elite defenders this season. He is so good on defense, that even his negative impact on offense isn't enough to make him mediocre overall player and in fact his overall impact is highly positive because of his amazing defense. (and it's confirmed by both RAPM and analysis of Rockets defensive strengths as areas where Houston is the best on D - 3P, TOV - are also areas where Trevor contributes the most.)

[bondom34]

But who presented such argument? I think you misinterpretate what was said about Ariza (he's awfully underrated, as it is often the case with defensively oriented players). Bottom line, Trevor is not mediocre and if someone is saying that, then his argumentation is dishonest, because he wants to Harden looks better. And there's really no need to do so, because he and Curry are clearly two the most valuable players this year and choosing one over another is like flip a coin.

I'd completely agree Curry vs. Harden is a toss up, I just don't think the supporting casts are close.

1. You didn't answer the question about who presented such argument. Please don't ignore this question.

2. Of course they (supporting casts) are not close and we see that in results as Warriors SRS is almost 7 points better! (what is really, really huge difference.) But that doesn't change the fact, that we should give credit where it's deserved - and that's the case here with Ariza, who as we all can see is awfully underrated, while in fact he is one of the elite defenders this season. He is so good on defense, that even his negative impact on offense isn't enough to make him bad overall player and in fact his overall impact is highly positive because of his amazing defense. (and it's confirmed by both RAPM and analysis of Rockets defensive strengths as areas where Houston is the best on D - 3P, TOV - are also areas where Trever contributes a lot.)

I never said anyone made the argument. I also neverade the argument you seem to think I am. That said, as Chuck mentioned Ariza is much closer to mediocre than DPOY. Harden has done more for the success of his team than Curry to me.

[lorak]

I never said anyone made the argument.

So what that post

Spoiler:

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza but Curry doesn't lose much much more while playing with Green, Thompson, and Bogut who are all good defensively, two of three I'd say better than Ariza.

means?

That said, as Chuck mentioned Ariza is much closer to mediocre than DPOY.

And what argumentation is behind that?

Harden has done more for the success of his team than Curry to me.

How you measured that "more"?

[bondom34]

I never said anyone made the argument.

So what that post

Spoiler:

I'm just confused as his Harden loses credit for playing with Ariza but Curry doesn't lose much much more while playing with Green, Thompson, and Bogut who are all good defensively, two of three I'd say better than Ariza.

means?

That said, as Chuck mentioned Ariza is much closer to mediocre than DPOY.

And what argumentation is behind that?

Harden has done more for the success of his team than Curry to me.

How you measured that "more"?

Sorry as I'm on a phone, but my argument was Harden had less help. You claimed Ariza as a DPoY candidate, which I disagree with. Your main argument was DRAPM. Looking at that, using JE's numbers, Ariza is at a 1.9 on defense, while Curry has Green, Bogut, and Iggy all at the same or better, with Thompson at 1.5 as well. So he's got three equal or better teammates than Harden, which is why I'm saying, along with others he has much less help.

[lorak]

Sorry as I'm on a phone, but my argument was Harden had less help. You claimed Ariza as a DPoY candidate, which I disagree with. Your main argument was DRAPM. Looking at that, using JE's numbers, Ariza is at a 1.9 on defense, while Curry has Green, Bogut, and Iggy all at the same or better, with Thompson at 1.5 as well. So he's got three equal or better teammates than Harden, which is why I'm saying, along with others he has much less help.

1. I'm not sure what JE's numbers are you using (could you give url?), but latest "true" (so without box score component) RAPM I know was done by Evan Z and Ariza has 3.0 DRAPM (12th overall), Green is 9th with 3.3 and no other player on either team has more than 2.4 DRAPM.

2. I agree Harden has less help, but it's seen in results as Rockets SRS is worse by almost 7 points. So I don't understand why are you saying that again and it seems to me like straw man.

3. I claimed that Ariza is DPOTY candidate not in reaction to your comment about Harden, but to claim that Trevor is mediocre player.

4. Not only DRAPM (and it's not my main argument! I wasn't even the one who brought RAPM into this discussion) supports that Ariza is elite defensively this year. Rockets defensive strengths (3P, TOV) also suggest that, but no one responded to 4factors argument.

[bondom34]

Sorry as I'm on a phone, but my argument was Harden had less help. You claimed Ariza as a DPoY candidate, which I disagree with. Your main argument was DRAPM. Looking at that, using JE's numbers, Ariza is at a 1.9 on defense, while Curry has Green, Bogut, and Iggy all at the same or better, with Thompson at 1.5 as well. So he's got three equal or better teammates than Harden, which is why I'm saying, along with others he has much less help.

1. I'm not sure what JE's numbers are you using (could you give url?), but latest "true" (so without box score component) RAPM I know was done by Evan Z and Ariza has 3.0 DRAPM (12th overall), Green is 9th with 3.3 and no other player on either team has more than 2.4 DRAPM.

2. I agree Harden has less help, but it's seen in results as Rockets SRS is worse by almost 7 points. So I don't understand why are you saying that again and it seems to me like straw man.

3. I claimed that Ariza is DPOTY candidate not in reaction to your comment about Harden, but to claim that Trevor is mediocre player.

4. Not only DRAPM (and it's not my main argument! I wasn't even the one who brought RAPM into this discussion) supports that Ariza is elite defensively this year. Rockets defensive strengths (3P, TOV) also suggest that, but no one responded to 4factors argument.

I was using this, from January.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ra ... _2015.html

Also, RPM has Ariza much lower defensively, I'm just not seeing anything to tell me he's anything other than at best an average player right now.

[Jaivl]

Ariza is a great thief, but Brewer and Beverley are more or equally correlated to forcing TO according to FFAPM, and Harden steals more balls. And Ariza's eFG% FFAPM isn't in the top 50 of the league.

[Mazter]

To get back to Westbrook, his recipe for a triple double is simple. Leave your man wide open as soon as the opposing team sets to shoot, position yourself strategically in no-man's-land for an uncontested rebound, if possible go for the fastbreak as soon as the ball is rebounded for a quick attempt or assist. It is quick and effective, when the ball is actually shot by the opponent and/or rebounded by the Thunder. Not when it is passed to the man Westbrook left wide open.

[lorak]

I was using this, from January.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ra ... _2015.html

That's more recent, from beginning of March:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1783210900

Also, RPM has Ariza much lower defensively,

RPM has box score component what screws defensive ratings.

[bondom34]

I was using this, from January.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ra ... _2015.html

That's more recent, from beginning of March:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1783210900

Also, RPM has Ariza much lower defensively,

I know the RPM issue, but by evanzs numbers Harden has a better DPoY case. Ariza is nothing remotely special this year.

RPM has box score component what screws defensive ratings.

[lorak]

I know the RPM issue, but by evanzs numbers Harden has a better DPoY case. Ariza is nothing remotely special this year.

Ariza's DRAPM is more than 20% better than Harden's...
Ariza is 12th overall and in top 5 among players with many minutes played...

So are you sure you saw EvanZ's numbers?

Look, here are all players better than Ariza sorted by "DRAPM*MINUTES PLAYED" to show (not exactly of course, just to give you some idea about it) how big total impact on defense they had through whole season:

Code: Select all

"DRAPM*MIN"   DRAPM   MIN   PLAYER
-7612.0     -3.0   2529   Trevor Ariza
-7418.1     -3.3   2258   Draymond Green
-7396.1     -3.7   2024   Khris Middleton
-6211.6     -3.3   1856   DeMarcus Cousins
-6137.5     -3.9   1580   Nene Hilario
-6101.4     -3.0   2014   Jeff Teague
-5797.0     -4.2   1372   Manu Ginobili
-5653.4     -3.3   1692   Kawhi Leonard
-5439.9     -3.4   1618   Alan Anderson
-5073.0     -3.3   1524   C.J. Miles
-4675.8     -3.1   1530   Jared Dudley
-2928.2     -3.4   860   Thabo Sefolosha


So race for DPOTY should be three men race according to DRAPM and Ariza deserves to be among them. Kawhi, Cousins (he made big leap this year) or even always underrated Nene also would be in the discussion if only they didn't miss so much time.

[orlandomanic]

I really care more about FG% and turnovers more than triple doubles.

It kinds of sucks when you get 20/10/10 but your FG% is 40% and you have 5 turnovers.

if player B had 15/5/5 with 60FG% and zero turnovers... I would take player B.