#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

penquin11 · Post #1681 » by **penquin11** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:48 pm

jdm3 wrote:Clifford is awful. This team should have made the playoffs with ease but he has no clue what he is doing. He really does not understand how to develop an offense and just tries to run the same stuff no matter who is on the court. I think he will be back next season but it will set our team back if he is.

Yeah we should have totally made the playoffs with ease while we had 3 major contributors out with injuries for extended periods of time. I bet most coaches in the NBA could coach a team with limited depth like ours to the playoffs while missing their best offensive player, their best defensive player, and with Al J hobbled as usual. I mean, its not like Brian Roberts was our starting PG for a while this year or anything.

Post #1682 » by **yosemiteben** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:52 pm

So the argument should be Cliff unfairly hates Vonleh, but the mantra that Cliff doesn't play rookies is immediately disproven by the other two rookies that he's had. The argument about how raw Vonleh is applies only to rationalize why he's not playing. Whatever the reason, it's not because Cliff refuses to play any rookies.

I can understand the argument about JT, but IMO the mistake was not calling timeout after the made basket. Cliff was jumping up and down on the sideline trying to get it, it was a boneheaded move to in bound the ball (don't remember who did it). Cliff should have run on to the floor and made sure he got the timeout so he could get Mo back in.

I can't get worked up about Al being in on that possession because they needed a three and Gortat wasn't going to attempt one. I'd rather have Al grab the board and get fouled and get sent to the line than Biz.

amcoolio · Post #1683 » by **amcoolio** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:12 pm

The argument is what exactly is Maxiell giving you that Vonleh would be worse at. At one point in the 3rd quarter Maxiell had three straight offensive plays ran for him. Jason Maxiell! He was 0 for 3. And he doesn't exactly play great defense either.

I'm sorry but there is no way Vonleh more negatively affects the team being on the court as Maxiell. If the team sucks just as bad...fine, but at least he is getting experience and getting shots up.

There is absolutely NOTHING that Jeff Taylor contributes to the team right now. He's a negative immediately when he sets foot on the court, any time. He was -4 in 10 seconds of action yesterday. Yet Clifford makes excuses for Taylor and keeps Vonleh in the doghouse.

amcoolio · Post #1684 » by **amcoolio** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:13 pm

The only way I see it is Vonleh is not mature enough yet in practices and Clifford thinks hes a kid. It doesn't make sense why he's benching a PF who can shoot 3's and dribble the basketball with ease, and can also block shots.

LamarMatic7 · Post #1685 » by **LamarMatic7** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:34 pm

The highest of highs in my photo editing career

tondi123 · Post #1686 » by **tondi123** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:45 pm

Either Cliff has an irrational "hatred" of rookies or we need to seriously reevaluate our scouting/drafting personnel who pissed away two first round picks on guys who have contributed zero on a nonplayoff team this season. NOBODY was predicting neither guy would play this season prior to the start of the year. Sure Vonleh was raw but raw doesn't equate to 15th man when talking about a top 10 pick and PJ was supposedly one of the, if not the, most NBA ready players coming into the league.

I mean, if all the other offseason moves had worked out and Lance and Marvin were playing great, we had once again managed to avoid the injury bug and we were chugging along to 50 wins and that meant, therefore, that the rookies were not getting the playing time we all expected that would be one thing. But we've had injuries throughout the lineup all season, Lance and Marvin have been terrible, and forget 50 wins, this team isn't even going to hit 35 wins. So exactly what scenario would have to occur for either of these guys to get even token rotation minutes?

Post #1687 » by **JDR720** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:31 pm

amcoolio wrote:The argument is what exactly is Maxiell giving you that Vonleh would be worse at. At one point in the 3rd quarter Maxiell had three straight offensive plays ran for him. Jason Maxiell! He was 0 for 3. And he doesn't exactly play great defense either.

I'm sorry but there is no way Vonleh more negatively affects the team being on the court as Maxiell. If the team sucks just as bad...fine, but at least he is getting experience and getting shots up.

There is absolutely NOTHING that Jeff Taylor contributes to the team right now. He's a negative immediately when he sets foot on the court, any time. He was -4 in 10 seconds of action yesterday. Yet Clifford makes excuses for Taylor and keeps Vonleh in the doghouse.

Vonleh almost averages Maxiells stats in 7mins per game

Vonleh might make some rookie mistakes, but he seems to be the perfect Cliff player. He plays with #energy he can shoot (48% threes in college) and he rebounds (#1 rebounder in college). I think he just looks at Vonleh as a 19 year old kid and thinks Maxiell is superior because of his vet experience even if its clear Maxiell sucks 4 out of 5 games.

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #1688 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:29 pm

yosemiteben wrote:And good lord am I tired of the Cliff doesn't play rookies narrative. We've had three first round picks since Cliff arrived. Cody clearly didn't have this issue and PJ had a legit shot at a spot in the rotation and got semi-regular minutes at one point but really wasted it with some terrible decision making on and off the court. Scouts said Vonleh was not ready and would take a couple years before he really understood how to play.

My belief is that Cliff came in here with a mandate to develop the young guys. That's why Cody got force feed minutes last year. I suspect that Cliff hated doing that and felt like the rook hadn't earned those minutes. Then came the 'famous turning point' where Cliff told the team that folks were going to have to start earning their minutes since it looked like the playoffs were a real possibility. I think that Cliff has basically played the roster he's wanted to since then.

I agree that Vonleh wasn't ready for crunch time minutes on a playoff bound team. But it's foolish to not give him spot minutes throughout the season to develop him. Vonleh is going to make mistakes, but he has to make at least a few to learn from them. Cliff is doing both Vonleh and the team a long term disservice by not playing the young guys like he should.

I watch teams like the Spurs try to develop young guys. They don't have success with all of them, but they consistently find guys at all positions in the draft and develop them. Letting them play some is a part of that. Cliff does a lot of things that frustrate me, but this is one that's going to bite the team in the long run the most IMHO.

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1424 ... ung-talent

thruthefire · Post #1689 » by **thruthefire** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:17 pm

He sucks at developing talent.
He sucks at making adjustments.
He sucks at drawing up plays.
He sucks at making substitutions.
His defense sucks without MKG.

He sucks at everything. I disliked Vincent and Dunlap with just as much passion and thought both would get canned. My gut feeling is Clifford will too. Give me a coach who is good at a few of the things mentioned above, and I'll be happy.

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #1690 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:58 am

Cliff has had a bad 2nd year as a coach. I want him gone, but he doesn’t suck at everything. We are just getting to see all of his weaknesses this year.

And yes Cho could have given him a better roster.

And yes Lance sucked all on his own this year.

And yes there have been injuries that have had a huge impact on the W/L stats this year.

And yes Al came in out of shape, most likely due to recovery from his injury in the playoffs last year.

And yes Kemba was “distracted” early in the year.

But none of these really affected Cliff’s ability to draw plays out of timeouts, or his stubbornness, etc. Cliff managed to make mistakes all by himself.

DY_nasty · Post #1691 » by **DY_nasty** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:33 pm

I still don't think Lance sucking was all on him. There's just... nothing makes sense about that. Its not like Cliff even tried to make Lance work either. He took a crap on the guy the first month of the season and never once stuck up for the guy really. Then you look at Lance on the court and its like...

Why is Lance ALWAYS operating in the same spots over and over again when he's shown that he's sporadic at best there. Lance in the middle of the court, freestyling at the top of the free throw line doesn't work - but he's ALWAYS there. Let the guy work off the wings for a while. Maybe let Lance, one of the strongest 2s in the league, POST UP and take advantage of that passing and draw some fouls too.

You look at Lance's games in Indiana and compare them to now and its clear as day that he's rhythm player and we've never once put him in a position to do that.

Also... I don't like our defense. This team should be forcing turnover and creating additional possessions for our obviously handicapped offense. We play into our own weakness by creating half-court games but what do I know...

ball teacher · Post #1692 » by **ball teacher** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:47 pm

DY_nasty wrote:I still don't think Lance sucking was all on him. There's just... nothing makes sense about that. Its not like Cliff even tried to make Lance work either. He took a crap on the guy the first month of the season and never once stuck up for the guy really. Then you look at Lance on the court and its like...

Why is Lance ALWAYS operating in the same spots over and over again when he's shown that he's sporadic at best there. Lance in the middle of the court, freestyling at the top of the free throw line doesn't work - but he's ALWAYS there. Let the guy work off the wings for a while. Maybe let Lance, one of the strongest 2s in the league, POST UP and take advantage of that passing and draw some fouls too.

You look at Lance's games in Indiana and compare them to now and its clear as day that he's rhythm player and we've never once put him in a position to do that.

Also... I don't like our defense. This team should be forcing turnover and creating additional possessions for our obviously handicapped offense. We play into our own weakness by creating half-court games but what do I know...

I cant really blame Lance for his struggles, he was a bad fit that we all shouldve known wouldnt fit. We needed a guy who could shoot, especially from deep, Lance is not really a shooter, we have a system where we need ball movement, Lance tends to pound the rock. The best bet maybe to redevelope lance and make him a PG to play alongside Kemba.

Post #1693 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:07 pm

DY_nasty wrote:Its not like Cliff even tried to make Lance work either. He took a crap on the guy the first month of the season and never once stuck up for the guy really.

This is completely inaccurate. The WORST thing he said is that Lance is young and expectations were too high and he needed to find his role. Prove otherwise if you disagree. Lance is lucky Cliff didn't drop him out of the rotation completely, he gave Lance steady PT for months when Lance did absolutely nothing productive with it.

To all this people that say Cliff sucks at everything, I have a question - how do you explain that this year's Hornets team might possibly be the best defensive rebounding team since the introduction of the shot clock, and that last year we had the second best of all time? (Source)

Or the fact that we are on track to possibly post the lowest turnover margin in league history? (Source)

You can argue with his philosophy, but he has been amazingly effective at implementing his core principles. Does anyone really disagree with that in light of these stats?

BeesWax · Post #1694 » by **BeesWax** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:10 pm

Kiss up to him all you want but he has been terrible and is still terrible right now. What Dynasty wrote was 100% correct about him dumping on Lance you just choose to ignore it.

Post #1695 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:12 pm

jdm3 wrote:Kiss up to him all you want but he has been terrible and is still terrible right now. What Dynasty wrote was 100% correct about him dumping on Lance you just choose to ignore it.

It's not kissing up, it's acknowledging a fact. What's your take - that this team being one of the the best defensive rebounding teams in league history is not relevant in the assessment of whether he can coach a team effectively?

And you yourself admitted that there was nothing wrong with what Cliff said about Lance earlier this season.

BeesWax · Post #1696 » by **BeesWax** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:22 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:Kiss up to him all you want but he has been terrible and is still terrible right now. What Dynasty wrote was 100% correct about him dumping on Lance you just choose to ignore it.

It's not kissing up, it's acknowledging a fact. What's your take - that this team being one of the the best defensive rebounding teams in league history is not relevant in the assessment of whether he can coach a team effectively?

And you yourself admitted that there was nothing wrong with what Cliff said about Lance earlier this season.

You have been proven wrong on this about a dozen times yet you chose to ignore that. It is like you are hoping to be his PR guy when he gets fired for poor work. When we have our big man completely afraid to leave 3 feet from the rim and giving up wide open shots we should get a lot of defensive rebounds. Other teams run a pick and roll with the center and Al is parked directly under the rim uncontested for any missed shots. I think having Jefferson, MKG, and Zeller has helped our rebounding a ton and it would be that way no matter who was coaching since Al is afraid to leave the lane.

No I admitted there was nothing wrong about him saying stuff if he held everyone to the same standard which he did not. He never made the comments that needed to happen on the other players and thus was singling out Lance and taking a dump on him like DY said.

Post #1697 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:26 pm

jdm3 wrote:When we have our big man completely afraid to leave 3 feet from the rim and giving up wide open shots we should get a lot of defensive rebounds.

Not a lot. The most. Ever.

I acknowledge that Cliff struggles with rotation decisions and overemphasizes the core principles he preaches.

I'm seeking out a more nuanced conversation than "Cliff is terrible at everything."

BeesWax · Post #1698 » by **BeesWax** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:40 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:When we have our big man completely afraid to leave 3 feet from the rim and giving up wide open shots we should get a lot of defensive rebounds.

Not a lot. The most. Ever.

I acknowledge that Cliff struggles with rotation decisions and overemphasizes the core principles he preaches.

I'm seeking out a more nuanced conversation than "Cliff is terrible at everything."

We have had this conversation on his treatment of Lance and everything else. Now you are grasping at straws for the rebounding thing. Great we are a tremendous rebounding team that is still out of the playoffs in the weaker conference. That doesn't matter because all that I wanted us to do this year was rebound, forget winning. His defense is solid and a number of us have said that but every other aspect of the game he has struggled with. He has even struggled with that when MKG has missed time. Both our centers rebound the ball well on the defensive end and Biz rebounds we on both. He has pieces to accomplish things yet here we are outside looking in. He has been very bad this year and that is shown in the numbers.

BeesWax · Post #1699 » by **BeesWax** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:49 pm

The rebounding thing could go to the plan for defense. I mean Lance, Henderson, MKG and Kemba are all in the top 15 of their positions at it. We do not run out at much and crash the boards as a result it appears. Not sure it is helping a whole lot but we do stop possessions.

Post #1700 » by **yosemiteben** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:53 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:My belief is that Cliff came in here with a mandate to develop the young guys. That's why Cody got force feed minutes last year. I suspect that Cliff hated doing that and felt like the rook hadn't earned those minutes. Then came the 'famous turning point' where Cliff told the team that folks were going to have to start earning their minutes since it looked like the playoffs were a real possibility.

This narrative has always bothered me - Cody played more minutes post-ASB last season than pre-ASB. How does the Cody case support an argument that Cliff didn't want to play Cody and halfway through the season decided not to?

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:I watch teams like the Spurs try to develop young guys. They don't have success with all of them, but they consistently find guys at all positions in the draft and develop them. Letting them play some is a part of that.

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare our draft history with SAS. Since 2007, the only first round picks they've made that have cracked their rotation are Kawhi (who came in much more developed than MKG and certainly Vonleh and who at 21 was getting roughly the same number of minutes as MKG), George Hill (who was 23 in his rookie year with SAS) and Splitter (who was 26 his rookie year with SAS and technically they traded for). Their history is not full of young guys getting PT. Blair was a second round pick and is pretty much the only exception.

The model for the Spurs over the last 5-7 years or so is more finding underutilized or Euro guys that are relatively unheralded that they didn't draft but picked up to plug into their system (Green, Diaw, Mills, Belinelli, Bonner, Splitter, Neal).