Leap Year - The Kemba Walker Thread III

[DY_nasty]

That only explain how miserable we've been at backup SF if anything whether it's Lance (dun dun dun) or Jeff Taylor (womp womp womp). MKG is my favorite player on the team but even I recognize his offensive withholdings that can only be covered by bringing in a legit SG.

That's.... no

not how that works at all

but as long as you're forcing a defense to guard every player on the court, then ball movement can exist. that's really all there is to it. there's nothing saying that it has to come from 3s or off-ball reads or penetration (which is a big part of why rondo fans are all incredibly misguided imo - you can't have a working offense when you allow defenses to double OFF of your primary ballhandler. simply impossible to be successful with rondo as a pg when you're not holding a top 10 all time defense and 3 hall of famers).

All of that is just a testament that offense is crappy with MKG on the floor and with him off it. Even Biz got a higher offensive rating than Al but that don't mean he's a better scorer. MKG don't put fear in defenses unless he's in transition but he's growing in the halfcourt setting as evidenced by his improved jumper. I don't really see where you're getting at. MKG isn't a offensive threat just yet.

You're kind of all over the place now. He doesn't need to be a "threat" to simply not be a liability. And even with the broke hitch in his jumper, he wasn't a liability. Also, he's not "growing" in the halfcourt, he's a legit option and a consistent bail out when given the opportunity. Defenses don't need to be afraid of you hanging 20 on them, they just need to occupy whatever area of the court that you frequent. The fact that MKG is now making people guard him 18 feet out AND our offense recognizes it enough to take advantage = one of the very, very few key successes we've had in player development ever and a sign that Clifford actually does know what a good addition to an offense looks like.

Al's a volume scorer and Biz's usage is abysmal so like... I don't even know why that is being brought up.

[catch20two]

So you want an aging Millsap and Dirk? Favors averages 16. You want Vucevic or Lopez at center?

I want a young Millsap or Dirk. They didnt come into the league 30 years old you know. Favors would be nice too. I'd trade Zeller and a mid 1st for him if we could. I wouldn't trade a top 10 pick tho because we might strike gold and I wouldn't want to live on that regret.

lol Im pretty sure everyone would love a young Millsap or Dirk. But thats asking an awful lot. Id give Zeller and a first for Favors in a nanosecond.

Well in order to get a young Millsap or Dirk you can't rest on your laurels of Zeller and Biz. That's why I said pending on what Vonleh become the PF or C position could stand to improve. I don't know why when everything is in question the PG position is where everyone look. The same way good Cs don't grow on trees or come a dime a dozen, neither does this mythical SG we're looking for. We have to explore all avenues of improving this team at any position. SG, PF, and C are all positions Cho should be willing to take on high potential in even if it's kinda risky. We don't need no more serviceable high IQ character guys with blah ceilings (see Kaminsky).

[DY_nasty]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

[catch20two]

That's.... no

not how that works at all

but as long as you're forcing a defense to guard every player on the court, then ball movement can exist. that's really all there is to it. there's nothing saying that it has to come from 3s or off-ball reads or penetration (which is a big part of why rondo fans are all incredibly misguided imo - you can't have a working offense when you allow defenses to double OFF of your primary ballhandler. simply impossible to be successful with rondo as a pg when you're not holding a top 10 all time defense and 3 hall of famers).

All of that is just a testament that offense is crappy with MKG on the floor and with him off it. Even Biz got a higher offensive rating than Al but that don't mean he's a better scorer. MKG don't put fear in defenses unless he's in transition but he's growing in the halfcourt setting as evidenced by his improved jumper. I don't really see where you're getting at. MKG isn't a offensive threat just yet.

You're kind of all over the place now. He doesn't need to be a "threat" to simply not be a liability. And even with the broke hitch in his jumper, he wasn't a liability. Also, he's not "growing" in the halfcourt, he's a legit option and a consistent bail out when given the opportunity. Defenses don't need to be afraid of you hanging 20 on them, they just need to occupy whatever area of the court that you frequent. The fact that MKG is now making people guard him 18 feet out AND our offense recognizes it enough to take advantage = one of the very, very few key successes we've had in player development ever and a sign that Clifford actually does know what a good addition to an offense looks like.

Al's a volume scorer and Biz's usage is abysmal so like... I don't even know why that is being brought up.

I'm not all over the place. You are because you don't read. I never said MKG was a liability. I just said that defenses don't respect him and that he's not a offensive threat yet. Am I lying? If so then show me the tape where a defender defended MKG out to the 3pt line or shaded a double team his way to create a open shot for Kemba or somebody else. There's a reason why MKG don't get many assist and it starts with the fact that defenses dare him to shoot.

[Liver_Pooty]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

[catch20two]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

I would really love to hear this stance about Zeller being a decent post player.

[Braggins]

I don't even think we need a 20 a game scorer at SG. A SG who can play D, shoot 3's, and score about 15 a game would be nice. Hendo can play D and score 15 a game, but can't shoot 3's. Just having a threat there that didn't screw us on defense would open up so much. I think it could work wonders with our offense. We might need a 20 a game scorer at SG to be a really good offense, but given how good our defense can be, I'd settle for being a mediocre offensive team. It might not cut it in the West, but it doesn't take much to be an "elite" eastern team. I seriously think we could have made the 6th seed this season if you just subract Jefferson from the team and go all in on defense. Defense and energy can get you a long way in a conference where 2/3 of the team are below .500.

[catch20two]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

[Liver_Pooty]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

With Zeller and MKG we win

With Walker and Jefferson we lose.

The roster composition is better with MKG and Zeller than it is Walker and Jefferson. Im not saying who the better player is, but MKG and Zeller are more important to our team than Walker is.

I never said Walker is expendable either.

[DY_nasty]

All of that is just a testament that offense is crappy with MKG on the floor and with him off it. Even Biz got a higher offensive rating than Al but that don't mean he's a better scorer. MKG don't put fear in defenses unless he's in transition but he's growing in the halfcourt setting as evidenced by his improved jumper. I don't really see where you're getting at. MKG isn't a offensive threat just yet.

You're kind of all over the place now. He doesn't need to be a "threat" to simply not be a liability. And even with the broke hitch in his jumper, he wasn't a liability. Also, he's not "growing" in the halfcourt, he's a legit option and a consistent bail out when given the opportunity. Defenses don't need to be afraid of you hanging 20 on them, they just need to occupy whatever area of the court that you frequent. The fact that MKG is now making people guard him 18 feet out AND our offense recognizes it enough to take advantage = one of the very, very few key successes we've had in player development ever and a sign that Clifford actually does know what a good addition to an offense looks like.

Al's a volume scorer and Biz's usage is abysmal so like... I don't even know why that is being brought up.

I'm not all over the place. You are because you don't read. I never said MKG was a liability. I just said that defenses don't respect him and that he's not a offensive threat yet. Am I lying? If so then show me the tape where a defender defended MKG out to the 3pt line or shaded a double team his way to create a open shot for Kemba or somebody else. There's a reason why MKG don't get many assist and it starts with the fact that defenses dare him to shoot.

How you gonna jump in a back and forth between me and someone else then tell me the point that *I* was trying to make

MI called him a liability because he won't take 3s - which is a bad shot for him. I responded saying that you can't hold shot selection against a player when they maintain their value to the offense (or even make it better in his case). Sik was saying that you could build around him better than Kemba - and that is something I'm not even ready to agree on fully but its worth a solid thought about. I have no idea where you got this whole "MKG must be a threat and demand double teams" stuff from. None.

Again, you don't need to be defended out to the 3pt line to force someone to defend you. You also don't need to force a double team (where did that come from? wth). The numbers don't lie either.

[Braggins]

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

Without Zeller and MKG we win

With Walker and Jefferson we lose.

The roster composition is better with MKG and Zeller than it is Walker and Jefferson. Im not saying who the better player is, but MKG and Zeller are more important to our team than Walker is.

I never said Walker is expendable either.

We won with Walker and without Jefferson . I definitely am on the "Zeller is super underrated bandwagon", but I do think that his importance to our team is partly due to the fact that when he is out Maxiell becomes our backup PF.

I want to see this team without Al so bad.

Edit: and when Zeller is out Marvin is our starter. God, I hate this team lol.

[Liver_Pooty]

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

Without Zeller and MKG we win

With Walker and Jefferson we lose.

The roster composition is better with MKG and Zeller than it is Walker and Jefferson. Im not saying who the better player is, but MKG and Zeller are more important to our team than Walker is.

I never said Walker is expendable either.

We won with Walker and without Jefferson . I definitely am on the "Zeller is super underrated bandwagon", but I do think that his importance to our team is partly due to the fact that when he is out Maxiell becomes our backup PF.

We also won with Mo and Jefferson. We can both agree that Zeller is underrated though.

[DY_nasty]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

I would really love to hear this stance about Zeller being a decent post player.

I think he's the smartest offensive player on the team that isn't Al Jefferson for starters. But he's too quick to be used like Haslem. Kemba misses him more than anyone else too.

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

You're either not aware of what a lot of the numbers I've brought up mean or you're being intentionally obtuse. Comparing Al's ORTG to Biz's side by side to somehow take a shot at MKG is just

[catch20two]

You're kind of all over the place now. He doesn't need to be a "threat" to simply not be a liability. And even with the broke hitch in his jumper, he wasn't a liability. Also, he's not "growing" in the halfcourt, he's a legit option and a consistent bail out when given the opportunity. Defenses don't need to be afraid of you hanging 20 on them, they just need to occupy whatever area of the court that you frequent. The fact that MKG is now making people guard him 18 feet out AND our offense recognizes it enough to take advantage = one of the very, very few key successes we've had in player development ever and a sign that Clifford actually does know what a good addition to an offense looks like.

Al's a volume scorer and Biz's usage is abysmal so like... I don't even know why that is being brought up.

I'm not all over the place. You are because you don't read. I never said MKG was a liability. I just said that defenses don't respect him and that he's not a offensive threat yet. Am I lying? If so then show me the tape where a defender defended MKG out to the 3pt line or shaded a double team his way to create a open shot for Kemba or somebody else. There's a reason why MKG don't get many assist and it starts with the fact that defenses dare him to shoot.

How you gonna jump in a back and forth between me and someone else then tell me the point that *I* was trying to make

MI called him a liability because he won't take 3s - which is a bad shot for him. I responded saying that you can't hold shot selection against a player when they maintain their value to the offense (or even make it better in his case). Sik was saying that you could build around him better than Kemba - and that is something I'm not even ready to agree on fully but its worth a solid thought about. I have no idea where you got this whole "MKG must be a threat and demand double teams" stuff from. None.

Again, you don't need to be defended out to the 3pt line to force someone to defend you. You also don't need to force a double team (where did that come from? wth). The numbers don't lie either.

Doesn't change the very argument I made from the beginning and that's that defenses don't respect MKG yet and that doesn't help our offense. We can't build no offense around MKG without getting what I said, a SG that can shoot 3s!!! Damn, it's like talking to dimwits.

[Braggins]

Without Zeller and MKG we win

With Walker and Jefferson we lose.

The roster composition is better with MKG and Zeller than it is Walker and Jefferson. Im not saying who the better player is, but MKG and Zeller are more important to our team than Walker is.

I never said Walker is expendable either.

We won with Walker and without Jefferson . I definitely am on the "Zeller is super underrated bandwagon", but I do think that his importance to our team is partly due to the fact that when he is out Maxiell becomes our backup PF.

We also won with Mo and Jefferson. We can both agree that Zeller is underrated though.

Kind of. I think we still had a losing record with Mo. He was also playing absolutely out of his mind. I think you could still make the argument that Zeller is more important if Al is also in the equation. We absolutely have to have someone cover for his sorry ass when he plays. It is quite pathetic.

[catch20two]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

I would really love to hear this stance about Zeller being a decent post player.

I think he's the smartest offensive player on the team that isn't Al Jefferson for starters. But he's too quick to be used like Haslem. Kemba misses him more than anyone else too.

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

You're either not aware of what a lot of the numbers I've brought up mean or you're being intentionally obtuse. Comparing Al's ORTG to Biz's side by side to somehow take a shot at MKG is just

Who the hell is taking a shot at MKG? Shut up and actually read. Stop jumping to whatever silly conclusion off the first half a sentence before posting.

[Liver_Pooty]

Heading to bed fellas. Nice debate tonight. We can talk about this disappointment of a sorry team tomorrow.

[Braggins]

I really think Zeller is massively underrated and misused worse than any other player on the roster but that's for the other thread...

I would really love to hear this stance about Zeller being a decent post player.

I think he's the smartest offensive player on the team that isn't Al Jefferson for starters. But he's too quick to be used like Haslem. Kemba misses him more than anyone else too.

I think Al is a big dummy on offense. He doesn't turn the ball over, but I think that has a lot to do with him having insanely good hands. He has some of the worst tunnel vision of any player I've ever seen and just completely forgets about his teammates once he catches the ball. He is also useless off-ball. I agree about Zeller being a really smart player and Kemba badly missing him though.

[DY_nasty]

*sigh*

I'm not all over the place. You are because you don't read. I never said MKG was a liability. I just said that defenses don't respect him and that he's not a offensive threat yet. Am I lying? If so then show me the tape where a defender defended MKG out to the 3pt line or shaded a double team his way to create a open shot for Kemba or somebody else. There's a reason why MKG don't get many assist and it starts with the fact that defenses dare him to shoot.

How you gonna jump in a back and forth between me and someone else then tell me the point that *I* was trying to make

MI called him a liability because he won't take 3s - which is a bad shot for him. I responded saying that you can't hold shot selection against a player when they maintain their value to the offense (or even make it better in his case). Sik was saying that you could build around him better than Kemba - and that is something I'm not even ready to agree on fully but its worth a solid thought about. I have no idea where you got this whole "MKG must be a threat and demand double teams" stuff from. None.

Again, you don't need to be defended out to the 3pt line to force someone to defend you. You also don't need to force a double team (where did that come from? wth). The numbers don't lie either.

Doesn't change the very argument I made from the beginning and that's that defenses don't respect MKG yet and that doesn't help our offense. We can't build no offense around MKG without getting what I said, a SG that can shoot 3s!!! Damn, it's like talking to dimwits.

But this was your argument from the beginning

seriously, our offense doesn't suffer with MKG on the court - the exact opposite actually. so you have no argument)

Lol. Oh so you just gonna ignore MKG's man totally ignoring him to make a case that's fiction. We suffer offensively with MKG on the court but we suffer more when he's off it because our defense totally go to sh*t while our offense can't make up the ground. The only way MKG won't hurt us as much on the floor offensvely will be the day we get a SG that can score and legitimately stretch the floor.

We're better with him on the court than off.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14CHA9.HTM

I'm not BSing at all. I mean... I think people have this misconception that you can only make people guard you by hitting shots from range when that is not the case at all. We literally shoot better as a team with MKG on the court. It was never about MKG hitting 3s but MKG forcing defenses to guard him. He's done that and some.

On top of that, he's actually been a bigger bail out guy for the guards than most give credit for. 70% of his buckets are assisted - which is astounding because he's taken significantly more shots from distance this year than he has before. Hell, the guy is hitting 50% between 10-16 feet - that's actually damned good.

I would really love to hear this stance about Zeller being a decent post player.

I think he's the smartest offensive player on the team that isn't Al Jefferson for starters. But he's too quick to be used like Haslem. Kemba misses him more than anyone else too.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

You're either not aware of what a lot of the numbers I've brought up mean or you're being intentionally obtuse. Comparing Al's ORTG to Biz's side by side to somehow take a shot at MKG is just

Who the hell is taking a shot at MKG? Shut up and actually read. Stop jumping to whatever silly conclusion off the first half a sentence before posting.

That only explain how miserable we've been at backup SF if anything whether it's Lance (dun dun dun) or Jeff Taylor (womp womp womp). MKG is my favorite player on the team but even I recognize his offensive withholdings that can only be covered by bringing in a legit SG.

That's.... no

not how that works at all

but as long as you're forcing a defense to guard every player on the court, then ball movement can exist. that's really all there is to it. there's nothing saying that it has to come from 3s or off-ball reads or penetration (which is a big part of why rondo fans are all incredibly misguided imo - you can't have a working offense when you allow defenses to double OFF of your primary ballhandler. simply impossible to be successful with rondo as a pg when you're not holding a top 10 all time defense and 3 hall of famers).

All of that is just a testament that offense is crappy with MKG on the floor and with him off it. Even Biz got a higher offensive rating than Al but that don't mean he's a better scorer. MKG don't put fear in defenses unless he's in transition but he's growing in the halfcourt setting as evidenced by his improved jumper. I don't really see where you're getting at. MKG isn't a offensive threat just yet.

so pardon my confusion if somehow you move the goalposts twice while throwing in a left fielder like a completely inane Biz/Al comparison

and figure out what your own definition of "threat" is too

I argued that MKG is not a liability, and that he is actually a positive contributor to the offense - not shooting 3s withstanding. You jumped all over the place. I even tried to refocus your argument for you. But now you're mad and whatnot

[Robot Rock]

Other than MKG hes the most important player on the team.

Lol. Lack of quality depth behind you = importance. No wonder this team is so miserable. We finally get a decent PG for Kemba and he's "redundant" and expendable. You guys aren't used to nice things.

MKG and Zeller are more important to our team than Walker is.

You guys crack me up.