Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation?

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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#201 » by -Sammy- » Wed Apr 1, 2015 6:05 pm

nomansland wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
nomansland wrote:
"I didn't say I think it's a choice"

- BombsquadSammy


The point is, it's not a choice. You seem to be intermixing terms to try and evade that issue.


I said that some people view homosexuality as a choice. What's evasive about that?


Ah, I interpreted it to mean that you personally think it's a choice. My mistake if you don't. Do you?


Since you asked me in a non-accosting way, I'll answer. I don't know if it's a choice or not. I think it's an extremely nuanced and delicate issue, and I think anyone who takes a position based on religious obligation, fear, social convention or perceived propriety is doing a disservice to the gravity of the issue.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#202 » by RoundMoundOfReb » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:15 pm

Not at all. Would people be so up in arms about say a law allowing women's only gyms....ie gyms that refuse service to men? Would they call it an "anti-male" sexist law.

In fact, I agree with the general premise of the bill. Businesses should be "allowed" to refuse service to anybody based on whatever basis they like'. Yes - INCLUDING RACE (I say this as a minority). Any business stupid enough to openly refuse service to people based on race/sexuality would hurt their own bottom line through bad press/public outrage.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#203 » by Brandon-Clyde » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:18 pm

The law only says that persons(and yes under both federal and state laws the definitions of persons includes closely held businesses and corporations. for example the Hobby Lobby decision) may not be substantially burdened if there is a less burdensome way to accommodate that persons religious belief. This is actually a higher threshold than what Connecticut's (whose governor is calling for a boycott of Indiana ) RFRA which only requires a standard that state laws not burden, as in at all.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#204 » by Gunny » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:28 pm

RoundMoundOfReb wrote:Not at all. Would people be so up in arms about say a law allowing women's only gyms....ie gyms that refuse service to men? Would they call it an "anti-male" sexist law.

In fact, I agree with the general premise of the bill. Businesses should be "allowed" to refuse service to anybody based on whatever basis they like'. Yes - INCLUDING RACE (I say this as a minority). Any business stupid enough to openly refuse service to people based on race/sexuality would hurt their own bottom line through bad press/public outrage.


This is a good point. If I went into a bakery with my girl to ask for a wedding cake and the person behind the counter goes, "We don't give service to Indians/interracial couples," that would make the decision easy for me. I'll give my hard-earned money to someone who isn't a racist jerk. I'm sure another bakery would love to provide the service to me.

The only entity getting hurt here is the business owner, as it's hurting their bottom line.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#205 » by NZB2323 » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:31 pm

They could say they won't have another Final Four in Indiana as long as the bill is up, but it's really too late for fans who already bought tickets and made hotel reservations.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#206 » by Brandon-Clyde » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:37 pm

RoundMoundOfReb wrote:Not at all. Would people be so up in arms about say a law allowing women's only gyms....ie gyms that refuse service to men? Would they call it an "anti-male" sexist law.

In fact, I agree with the general premise of the bill. Businesses should be "allowed" to refuse service to anybody based on whatever basis they like'. Yes - INCLUDING RACE (I say this as a minority). Any business stupid enough to openly refuse service to people based on race/sexuality would hurt their own bottom line through bad press/public outrage.

Big chain of such gyms. Called Curves
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#207 » by LLcoleJ » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:37 pm

Well the NCAA's headquarters are in Indianapolis. Taking the Final Four out of Indy is not feasible for this year. The NCAA however could look to move out of state if they felt strong enough on the issue.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#208 » by Neutral 123 » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:39 pm

Gunny wrote:
RoundMoundOfReb wrote:Not at all. Would people be so up in arms about say a law allowing women's only gyms....ie gyms that refuse service to men? Would they call it an "anti-male" sexist law.

In fact, I agree with the general premise of the bill. Businesses should be "allowed" to refuse service to anybody based on whatever basis they like'. Yes - INCLUDING RACE (I say this as a minority). Any business stupid enough to openly refuse service to people based on race/sexuality would hurt their own bottom line through bad press/public outrage.


This is a good point. If I went into a bakery with my girl to ask for a wedding cake and the person behind the counter goes, "We don't give service to Indians/interracial couples," that would make the decision easy for me. I'll give my hard-earned money to someone who isn't a racist jerk. I'm sure another bakery would love to provide the service to me.

The only entity getting hurt here is the business owner, as it's hurting their bottom line.

That only works because you live in an area and a country where the next person is unlikely to refuse service. The U.S isn't that far removed from days where that wasn't the case. The real issue here is eradicating hate. That is the agenda, and it needs to be pushed forward aggressively. The response so far on this issue has been great. Even a hypocrite and hate monger like Charles Barkley is on board. That's impressive.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#209 » by Bank Shot » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:49 pm

JohnnyNightrain wrote:AND this is exactly what this law is going to allow to happen....

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/04/indiana-pizzeria-gay-couples

They aren't the first business to come out like this in the state, either. Here it is in black and white. It's just going to cause people to more openly be bigots because the law will embolden them.

Though, like Pence, she just signed her death note by granting this interview. Have fun living under a bridge when your business goes under.


The irony of what the father said would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing. The lack of self-awareness is astounding.

"Why should I be beat over the head to go along with something they choose?"


:noway:
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#210 » by Keller61 » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:52 pm

The idea of businesses being allowed to discriminate in the name of "religious freedom" is absurd. That means that if you want to discriminate against someone, all you need to do is cite some obscure rule from any old religion. After all, it's about religious freedom, not Christian freedom, right?

I guess if I don't feel like serving women today, I can just invoke Islam and complain about them being outside without their husbands.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#211 » by Deadpool Raptor » Wed Apr 1, 2015 7:57 pm

carl_english wrote:Ban clubs too cuz they segregate


We're never going to solve your ugly problem (i kid i kid); we can solve the bias and hate to the LGBTQ community.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#212 » by frosty23 » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:02 pm

Everytime you think about how far we have come, you realize how much farther we still have to go..
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#213 » by Brandon-Clyde » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:08 pm

Keller61 wrote:The idea of businesses being allowed to discriminate in the name of "religious freedom" is absurd. That means that if you want to discriminate against someone, all you need to do is cite some obscure rule from any old religion. After all, it's about religious freedom, not Christian freedom, right?

I guess if I don't feel like serving women today, I can just invoke Islam and complain about them being outside without their husbands.

Except that is not what the law allows. The law requires that not only must the owner of the business be able to show that they have had the religious beliefs for a long period of time(thus proving that the convictions are truly held) and that there is a less burdensome method to address the governments concerns(in other words if the government has a compelling interest it can override the religious objections but must do so in a way that does not SUBSTANTIALLY burden the person involved and must do so in the least burdensome manner to accomplish the goal)
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#214 » by Deadpool Raptor » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:13 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:
Keller61 wrote:The idea of businesses being allowed to discriminate in the name of "religious freedom" is absurd. That means that if you want to discriminate against someone, all you need to do is cite some obscure rule from any old religion. After all, it's about religious freedom, not Christian freedom, right?

I guess if I don't feel like serving women today, I can just invoke Islam and complain about them being outside without their husbands.

Except that is not what the law allows. The law requires that not only must the owner of the business be able to show that they have had the religious beliefs for a long period of time(thus proving that the convictions are truly held) and that there is a less burdensome method to address the governments concerns(in other words if the government has a compelling interest it can override the religious objections but must do so in a way that does not SUBSTANTIALLY burden the person involved and must do so in the least burdensome manner to accomplish the goal)


Combine that loose language with the fact that judges in the US are voted in and the states that support these kinds of laws are inherently religious, judges would be going against the majority who pay for their campaigns in NOT enforcing this law... and you have a dangerous combination.

Unless the LGBTQ community collects money and buys a judicial appointment like other groups.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#215 » by Neutral 123 » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:14 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:
Keller61 wrote:The idea of businesses being allowed to discriminate in the name of "religious freedom" is absurd. That means that if you want to discriminate against someone, all you need to do is cite some obscure rule from any old religion. After all, it's about religious freedom, not Christian freedom, right?

I guess if I don't feel like serving women today, I can just invoke Islam and complain about them being outside without their husbands.

Except that is not what the law allows. The law requires that not only must the owner of the business be able to show that they have had the religious beliefs for a long period of time(thus proving that the convictions are truly held) and that there is a less burdensome method to address the governments concerns(in other words if the government has a compelling interest it can override the religious objections but must do so in a way that does not SUBSTANTIALLY burden the person involved and must do so in the least burdensome manner to accomplish the goal)

The law is fine. Indiana just needs to add sexual orientation as a protected class. This was their little loophole but they aren't fooling people, as they've been pushing an anti gay agenda for a while. Thus the uproar. You'd think these yokels would have something better to do with their time.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#216 » by Rip It » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:22 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FreemarketJay/status/583360059779997696[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AllianceDefends/status/583360366715002880[/tweet]
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#217 » by BruceO » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:27 pm

what does one have to do with the other?
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#218 » by Brandon-Clyde » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:29 pm

Deadpool Raptor wrote:
Brandon-Clyde wrote:
Keller61 wrote:The idea of businesses being allowed to discriminate in the name of "religious freedom" is absurd. That means that if you want to discriminate against someone, all you need to do is cite some obscure rule from any old religion. After all, it's about religious freedom, not Christian freedom, right?

I guess if I don't feel like serving women today, I can just invoke Islam and complain about them being outside without their husbands.

Except that is not what the law allows. The law requires that not only must the owner of the business be able to show that they have had the religious beliefs for a long period of time(thus proving that the convictions are truly held) and that there is a less burdensome method to address the governments concerns(in other words if the government has a compelling interest it can override the religious objections but must do so in a way that does not SUBSTANTIALLY burden the person involved and must do so in the least burdensome manner to accomplish the goal)


Combine that loose language with the fact that judges in the US are voted in and the states that support these kinds of laws are inherently religious, judges would be going against the majority who pay for their campaigns in NOT enforcing this law and you have a dangerous combination.

Unless the LGBTQ community collects money and buys a judicial appointment like other groups.

My explanation may make the languages seem loose but the actual law is defined by precedents on what things mean and precise terms. BTW judges in Indiana are not elected, several are nominated by a judicial panel and the governor appoints from the nominees from the panel.
Also liberal Connecticut has a law that favors the religious rights even more than Indiana's Other state with RFRA's are Illinois, Arizona, New Mexico, Rhode Island and Pennsylvania.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#219 » by Deadpool Raptor » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:36 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:
Deadpool Raptor wrote:
Brandon-Clyde wrote:Except that is not what the law allows. The law requires that not only must the owner of the business be able to show that they have had the religious beliefs for a long period of time(thus proving that the convictions are truly held) and that there is a less burdensome method to address the governments concerns(in other words if the government has a compelling interest it can override the religious objections but must do so in a way that does not SUBSTANTIALLY burden the person involved and must do so in the least burdensome manner to accomplish the goal)


Combine that loose language with the fact that judges in the US are voted in and the states that support these kinds of laws are inherently religious, judges would be going against the majority who pay for their campaigns in NOT enforcing this law and you have a dangerous combination.

Unless the LGBTQ community collects money and buys a judicial appointment like other groups.

My explanation may make the languages seem loose but the actual law is defined by precedents on what things mean and precise terms. BTW judges in Indiana are not elected, several are nominated by a judicial panel and the governor appoints from the nominees from the panel.
Also liberal Connecticut has a law that favors the religious rights even more than Indiana's Other state with RFRA's are Illinois, Arizona, New Mexico, Rhode Island and Pennsylvania.


" The Indiana judiciary consists of three constitutional courts--the supreme court, the court of appeals, and the circuit court. Judges of the appellate courts are appointed by the governor from a list of three names submitted by the state judicial nominating commission, and judges of the circuit court are elected in partisan contests, with the governor filling mid-term vacancies through appointment. Appellate court judges serve ten-year terms, and circuit court judges serve six-year terms.

Other trial courts have been created by statute, including the superior courts, county courts, probate courts, town and city courts, and small claims courts. With the exception of some judges in four counties, the majority of these judges are chosen in partisan elections. "
http://www.judicialselection.us/judicial_selection/index.cfm?state=IN

I don't know the process, but according to the .us site, Appeal courts aren't elected, but circuit court, superior court, county court, probate court, town and city courts and small claims court are chosen in partisan elections.
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Re: Should Final Four be relocated from Indiana to protest recent anti-gay legislation? 

Post#220 » by LLcoleJ » Wed Apr 1, 2015 8:36 pm

Rip It wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/FreemarketJay/status/583360059779997696[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AllianceDefends/status/583360366715002880[/tweet]


Well if FreeMarketJay ( a known religious conservative) tweets its cool.. then it must be ok.

By the way .. of the 68 groups that supported the RFRA federal law... who were the other 67? And do those 68 groups also support Indiana's state RFRA?
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