Taj Gibson

[ADDinChicago]

Ummm Pax held on to Deng until he absolutely couldn't anymore when a banged up Deng refused to come down off his number. He still paid him once. Paxson has a lot of "boys" and has so since he got to be in charge of things. He falls in love with almost any player he acquires on draft night. Of course he makes business decisions. Often they're poor and ill advised. Ones where most people at home go "why the hell won't he move him?". It's been bad enough where it's crippled the Bulls' cap when they've needed to have open money.

Pax will trade Noah only if he has to do so.

Paxon has never kept a player beyond his first extension. Every single player Paxon has drafted has been either traded or let go as a FA. Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Duhon, Nocioni, Tyrus, Sefalosha, James Johnson. Next up are Noah and Gibson. Neither will remain a Bull past July 2016.

I guess we'll wait and see on Noah (Gibson should be gone this summer to help fill needs). None of those players were multiple time all-stars, an award winner during an extension or an anchor player and considered a top 3 player at said position when healthy. He still has had a tendency to "hang on to his assets" thinking his roster is just fine.

And for Christ's sake, it's "PAXSON". Not "Paxon".

[TimRobbins]

I guess we'll wait and see on Noah (Gibson should be gone this summer to help fill needs). None of those players were multiple time all-stars, an award winner during an extension or an anchor player and considered a top 3 player at said position when healthy. He still has had a tendency to "hang on to his assets" thinking his roster is just fine.

And for Christ's sake, it's "PAXSON". Not "Paxon".

I wonder what the 'S' stands for...

Deng was an allstar. Noah and Taj are gone. "Salary Dump" is Paxson's middle name.

[ADDinChicago]

I guess we'll wait and see on Noah (Gibson should be gone this summer to help fill needs). None of those players were multiple time all-stars, an award winner during an extension or an anchor player and considered a top 3 player at said position when healthy. He still has had a tendency to "hang on to his assets" thinking his roster is just fine.

And for Christ's sake, it's "PAXSON". Not "Paxon".

I wonder what the 'S' stands for...

Deng was an allstar. Noah and Taj are gone. "Salary Dump" is Paxson's middle name.

I'm aware Deng was an all-star, I didn't say he wasn't. But did he win any awards? Was he on All-NBA or multiple All-Defensive teams, a top player at his position, etc.?

If "Salary Dump" was Paxson's middle name this roster would be quite different and would have been over the year's and they never would have been in "cap hell". He's been able to dump guys when the time finally comes, luckily. But he's also taken back bad deals and it's hindered the Bulls from adding the players they've wanted to add at times. Hell, in the case of Carlos Boozer and Ben Wallace, he paid one to go away because he couldn't "dump" that salary and the other he took on crap to right his mistakes.

[TimRobbins]

I'm aware Deng was an all-star, I didn't say he wasn't. But did he win any awards? Was he on All-NBA or multiple All-Defensive teams, a top player at his position, etc.?

If "Salary Dump" was Paxson's middle name this roster would be quite different and would have been over the year's and they never would have been in "cap hell". He's been able to dump guys when the time finally comes, luckily. But he's also taken back bad deals and it's hindered the Bulls from adding the players they've wanted to add at times. Hell, in the case of Carlos Boozer and Ben Wallace, he paid one to go away because he couldn't "dump" that salary and the other he took on crap to right his mistakes.

So you draw the line at "winning awards"? Seems a little arbitrary to me.

The bulls are in "cap hell"? What are you talking about? They paid the luxury tax once during the life of the franchise and it was for something like $1M. Some times you're forced to take back bad deals, like in the Ben Wallace trade. Paxson never took back a bad deal other than that.

Paxson traded just about everybody in a salary dump. Chandler, Hinrich, Deng, Wallace - all salary dumps. What was the last trade the Bulls made that was not a salary dump? Taj and Noah are next. Book it.

The franchise is a business first, basketball team second. Always was.

[DanTown8587]

If Niko takes over, then yeah I'd love to see them trade him next year @ the deadline and his new team reward him with another decent deal. Bulls took care of him a couple of years ago and he's been a good solder, accepting his role and playing thru injuries.

The average NBA salary is @ 5 mil per IIRC and him at 8.5 is a good deal for a guy capable of starting and putting up 15/10 and being a NASTY shot blocker.

Even tho they suck, It would be cool to see the Knicks or even Brooklyn pay him so he could play at home a few years.

Hard Hat, Lunch Pail.
Taj

Almost all PF in this league get 15-10 if they're starters, that's a fairly low bar to clear.

Taj's athletic ability will begin to decline and then you wonder if he'll still be able to be as effective since his game is more speed based than strength. We see it with Noah that once Jo loses that quickness, his lack of size (in terms of girth) hurts him and he's unable to do anything against the very good athletic C (Drummond, Jordan, etc) and even average guys (like John Henson last night) start beating Noah to the spot.

You do know that there are only 8 guys in the entire NBA averaging at least 15/10, right (and nearly all of them are Centers)? So, that bar you speak of is a bit higher than you make it out to be.

Probably because that was a typo of the 10 on my point; Taj's per 36 of 15-8 is incredibly average at the PF spot, especially in terms of efficiency.

[Mobby]

Taj is on a value contract, and considering he probably wants a starting job, we should do everyone a favor and have him traded for a wing / draft pick this offseason. We need more minutes for our big guys, and although there's always an injury risk, I'd love to have a wing worth 8-9 mil to fill that Dunleavy spot.

[Jimako10]

Almost all PF in this league get 15-10 if they're starters, that's a fairly low bar to clear.

Taj's athletic ability will begin to decline and then you wonder if he'll still be able to be as effective since his game is more speed based than strength. We see it with Noah that once Jo loses that quickness, his lack of size (in terms of girth) hurts him and he's unable to do anything against the very good athletic C (Drummond, Jordan, etc) and even average guys (like John Henson last night) start beating Noah to the spot.

You do know that there are only 8 guys in the entire NBA averaging at least 15/10, right (and nearly all of them are Centers)? So, that bar you speak of is a bit higher than you make it out to be.

Probably because that was a typo of the 10 on my point; Taj's per 36 of 15-8 is incredibly average at the PF spot, especially in terms of efficiency.

When you combine his elite defense with his average offense, that's a pretty good overall player, especially at 8.5m per. And yes I know he's having a down year defensively, but when healthy he's easily a starter on a lot of teams. I'm not worried about him declining athletically, he's got great defensive instincts and not a lot of miles on his legs for him to continue to be great at it. If anything, his declining athleticism will hurt him guarding centers which he probably shouldn't be guarding anyway since he's already kind of small even for a power forward. At this point, I'd wager he will last longer than Noah at being impactful on the court.

[DanTown8587]

When you combine his elite defense with his average offense, that's a pretty good overall player, especially at 8.5m per. And yes I know he's having a down year defensively, but when healthy he's easily a starter on a lot of teams. I'm not worried about him declining athletically, he's got great defensive instincts and not a lot of miles on his legs for him to continue to be great at it. If anything, his declining athleticism will hurt him guarding centers which he probably shouldn't be guarding anyway since he's already kind of small even for a power forward. At this point, I'd wager he will last longer than Noah at being impactful on the court.

Taj's elite defense isn't a limiting defense though like say a Hibbert is. While Taj positions himself well and can guard switches incredibly well when healthy, he's not a guy who can just stop scoring from happening. Sure it's great he can guard a guy but even if he holds a guy down a little, his lack of scoring and scoring efficiency doesn't make up for that.

Again, Taj is a good player when he has a role of playing 20-25 minutes as a third big OR as a starter who doesn't have heavy offensive responsibilities in the front court. But when you can only play five guys and you're not a scorer at a position that has high depth, it starts to become an issue with building a team.

[ATRAIN53]

Don't forget Taj averaged 18/6 coming off the bench last year int he playoff series vs WAS-

and almost 3 Blocks a game.

Kevin Love is a 20 mil guy who you expect 20/10 from.
I'll take Taj at 8 mil for near similar production + he's a better shot blocker.

Taj shows up in the playoffs and leaves it all on the floor. The bigger the game the better he seems to play.

He could be the key to slowing Kevin Love down if we face CLE.
Let Gasol and Noah deal with Mozgoff, Taj can handle KLove by himself.

[Wont PerDont]

ATRAIN53 wrote:
If Niko takes over, then yeah I'd love to see them trade him next year @ the deadline and his new team reward him with another decent deal. Bulls took care of him a couple of years ago and he's been a good solder, accepting his role and playing thru injuries.

The average NBA salary is @ 5 mil per IIRC and him at 8.5 is a good deal for a guy capable of starting and putting up 15/10 and being a NASTY shot blocker.

Even tho they suck, It would be cool to see the Knicks or even Brooklyn pay him so he could play at home a few years.

Hard Hat, Lunch Pail.
Taj

Almost all PF in this league get 15-10 if they're starters, that's a fairly low bar to clear.

Taj's athletic ability will begin to decline and then you wonder if he'll still be able to be as effective since his game is more speed based than strength. We see it with Noah that once Jo loses that quickness, his lack of size (in terms of girth) hurts him and he's unable to do anything against the very good athletic C (Drummond, Jordan, etc) and even average guys (like John Henson last night) start beating Noah to the spot.

You do know that there are only 8 guys in the entire NBA averaging at least 15/10, right (and nearly all of them are Centers)? So, that bar you speak of is a bit higher than you make it out to be.

Probably because that was a typo of the 10 on my point; Taj's per 36 of 15-8 is incredibly average at the PF spot, especially in terms of efficiency.

So, you weren't quoting ATRAIN's post when he brought up the 15/10 number, huh? I love your input on this board, but going to have to wave the BS flag on this one.

[DanTown8587]

You do know that there are only 8 guys in the entire NBA averaging at least 15/10, right (and nearly all of them are Centers)? So, that bar you speak of is a bit higher than you make it out to be.

Probably because that was a typo of the 10 on my point; Taj's per 36 of 15-8 is incredibly average at the PF spot, especially in terms of efficiency.

So, you weren't quoting ATRAIN's post when he brought up the 15/10 number, huh? I love your input on this board, but going to have to wave the BS flag on this one.

Well Taj doesn't get 15-10 per 36, in fact his trailing three years average out to 14.6 / 8.5 per 36 on .528TS%. That's not something I'd call even average at the PF spot.

[Wont PerDont]

Probably because that was a typo of the 10 on my point; Taj's per 36 of 15-8 is incredibly average at the PF spot, especially in terms of efficiency.

So, you weren't quoting ATRAIN's post when he brought up the 15/10 number, huh? I love your input on this board, but going to have to wave the BS flag on this one.

Well Taj doesn't get 15-10 per 36, in fact his trailing three years average out to 14.6 / 8.5 per 36 on .528TS%. That's not something I'd call even average at the PF spot.

What would you consider "average" for a starting PF? Because if 14.6/8.5 doesn't do it then you are pushing the 15/10 numbers that I have already shown you there are only 3-4 PFs in the entire league averaging. Maybe the discrepancy is in your opinion of what average is relative to what the numbers say?

[DanTown8587]

So, you weren't quoting ATRAIN's post when he brought up the 15/10 number, huh? I love your input on this board, but going to have to wave the BS flag on this one.

Well Taj doesn't get 15-10 per 36, in fact his trailing three years average out to 14.6 / 8.5 per 36 on .528TS%. That's not something I'd call even average at the PF spot.

What would you consider "average" for a starting PF?

Not that combo of points and TS%, that's my point. It's one thing to score an efficient 13-16 points in 36 minutes; it's another when it's not efficient and .528 TS% isn't efficient. His numbers per 36 this year (13.7 points on .545 TS%) is a decent number for a third big or a fourth/fifth starter but Taj also doesn't take a lot of inefficient shots (70% of his shots are within 10 feet) so it's hard to argue his value offensively.

You're going to have a hard time running a good offense that allows a Taj Gibson to average 16-18 points per 36.

[DanTown8587]

So, you weren't quoting ATRAIN's post when he brought up the 15/10 number, huh? I love your input on this board, but going to have to wave the BS flag on this one.

Well Taj doesn't get 15-10 per 36, in fact his trailing three years average out to 14.6 / 8.5 per 36 on .528TS%. That's not something I'd call even average at the PF spot.

What would you consider "average" for a starting PF? Because if 14.6/8.5 doesn't do it then you are pushing the 15/10 numbers that I have already shown you there are only 3-4 PFs in the entire league averaging. Maybe the discrepancy is in your opinion of what average is relative to what the numbers say?

Out of players who play 18MPG (so rotation guys only)

PER 36 how many PF get 15-8 per 36 (Bold has a worse TS% than .530)
Davis
Aldridge
Gasol
Stoudemire
Favors
Monroe
Milsap
Randolph
Sullinger
Mirotic
Boozer
Love
T. Zeller
Scola
Hill
T.Jones
Josh Smith
Lee
Ibaka

Now let's have a few scorers who don't get rebounds
Griffin (7.8)
Bosh (7.2)
Nowitzki (7.3)
Anderson (18.6 - 6.4)
Ilyasova (17.9-7.8)
Mark. Morris (17.8-7)

Now a few guys not quite there on points but heavy rebounds
Hickson (14.7-11.7)
Ed Davis (12.9-11.5)
Humphries (13.7-11.2)

Yes, Taj's 15-8 isn't that great.

[ADDinChicago]

I'm aware Deng was an all-star, I didn't say he wasn't. But did he win any awards? Was he on All-NBA or multiple All-Defensive teams, a top player at his position, etc.?

If "Salary Dump" was Paxson's middle name this roster would be quite different and would have been over the year's and they never would have been in "cap hell". He's been able to dump guys when the time finally comes, luckily. But he's also taken back bad deals and it's hindered the Bulls from adding the players they've wanted to add at times. Hell, in the case of Carlos Boozer and Ben Wallace, he paid one to go away because he couldn't "dump" that salary and the other he took on crap to right his mistakes.

So you draw the line at "winning awards"? Seems a little arbitrary to me.

Did I say that? No. I said all those things and the fact of the matter no one has come close in terms of production to Noah.

The bulls are in "cap hell"? What are you talking about? They paid the luxury tax once during the life of the franchise and it was for something like $1M. Some times you're forced to take back bad deals, like in the Ben Wallace trade. Paxson never took back a bad deal other than that.

Again, reading seems hard. What I said was "Cap hell" to SIGN PLAYERS they wanted to. Melo, re-signing Asik, etc. They have to trade players to avoid paying the tax after putting themselves in the position to do so after overpaying players like Carlos Boozer. Do you understand how the luxury tax/repeater tax work? Like you said, they've only paid the tax once by cheaping out after making bad deals. Reinsdorf always says "I'll pay the tax if we can win", so in other words he's never thought this team under Pax can win. Anytime they get close they make a move and often it's lessened the team before this last summer.

Paxson traded just about everybody in a salary dump. Chandler, Hinrich, Deng, Wallace - all salary dumps. What was the last trade the Bulls made that was not a salary dump? Taj and Noah are next. Book it.

Trades made to get under the luxury tax threshold and/or to avoid paying said players that didn't fit the system. And in the Ben Wallace trade they had to take back other bad deals in Larry Hughes. Pax doesn't trade for players to get better as he constantly thinks he has some super team. As far as we know, when players are available to make the team better, he doesn't even pick up a phone. Never been his style and probably never will be. Remember the ridiculous thread about whom the Bulls should sign when Rose went down? He didn't even add a 10-day this time around.

The franchise is a business first, basketball team second. Always was.

Who said it wasn't? Any pro team is a business (and people who think otherwise are foolish). That wasn't being debated. My point was a lot of the moves Paxson's had to make took until the last possible minute or close to it. He holds on to his assests and it's impacted the roster. And Joakim Noah's not like any of the aforemetioned players. So I won't "book it" just yet when it comes to Noah. Gibson's as good as gone as I've said and have agreed with.

[WindyCityBorn]

Trade him.

[TimRobbins]

Trades made to get under the luxury tax threshold and/or to avoid paying said players that didn't fit the system. And in the Ben Wallace trade they had to take back other bad deals in Larry Hughes. Pax doesn't trade for players to get better as he constantly thinks he has some super team. As far as we know, when players are available to make the team better, he doesn't even pick up a phone. Never been his style and probably never will be. Remember the ridiculous thread about whom the Bulls should sign when Rose went down? He didn't even add a 10-day this time around.

I don't understand what you're getting at. A "salary dump" is by definition a move to reduce salary, whether it is to avoid the luxury tax or to create cap space. My point was that Noah and Taj will be salary dumped just like everybody before them. I can't see how the things you are saying contradict my argument. Noah and Taj will be salary dumped and Pax will say we're going on the 2016 FA plan, just like he has done before.

Who said it wasn't? Any pro team is a business (and people who think otherwise are foolish). That wasn't being debated. My point was a lot of the moves Paxson's had to make took until the last possible minute or close to it. He holds on to his assests and it's impacted the roster. And Joakim Noah's not like any of the aforemetioned players. So I won't "book it" just yet when it comes to Noah. Gibson's as good as gone as I've said and have agreed with.

That's simply false. There are many owners in this league who do not prioritize maximizing profits like the Bulls do. In fact, the Bulls are pretty unique in this approach. I can't think of another franchise in the league that maximizing profits is its primary goal.

I think the history clearly shows you Noah will not be a Bull past July 2016. I'd say the same about Rose, but his contract is much more difficult to move.