Marcus Smart is nothing special...why are yall so delusional?

[wizfactor94]

Elfrid can do everything Marcus cant on offense......drive to the basket, finish, tear drops, in the lane jumpers......dunk with authority....

Marcus stinks at all that right now......i like Smart, but on offense Elfrid is no quesiton the better talent.

You have tons of evidence. When was the last time Marcus Posted a triple double? Elfrid has 2, the only ones of any rookie this season

he also has 12 double doubles

I know its all about persepctive here , everybody is a homer


Marcus can of course improve his driving ability

But Elfrid cant improve his shooting ability

You guys kill me.........homers at their best.

[wizfactor94]

Celtic fans crapping on Elfrid free throw shooting woes, when you got Marcus shooting 65% from the line LOL

Hilarious.

meanwhile Marcus shooting 36% from the field

[DarkAzcura]

Elfrid can do everything Marcus cant on offense......drive to the basket, finish, tear drops, in the lane jumpers......dunk with authority....

Marcus stinks at all that right now......i like Smart, but on offense Elfrid is no quesiton the better talent.

You have tons of evidence. When was the last time Marcus Posted a triple double? Elfrid has 2, the only ones of any rookie this season

he also has 12 double doubles

I know its all about persepctive here , everybody is a homer


Marcus can of course improve his driving ability

But Elfrid cant improve his shooting ability

You guys kill me.........homers at their best.

We had Rondo for 8 years. I think we are better judges on whether a player with completely broken jump shooting mechanics can improve or not.

Tons of evidence? How old are you? They're freakin' rookies dude. Get out of here with that stuff. The only evidence we have is that Smart was the best attacking guard in college and Payton has never been able to shoot a jumpshot in his life. Who do you think is more likely to improve in their deficiencies based on that evidence? Somehow you believe Payton will learn how to shoot even though he's never been able to, but Smart will somehow completely forget how to do what he was best at only a year ago? Let's also completely ignore the fact that Smart has gone from a 29% 3PT shooter in college on a shorter line to a 33% 3PT shooter at the NBA line, which is respectable. We aren't being the "homers" here.

I honestly couldn't care less about Payton vs Smart comparisons anyway. Payton has talent. That's good for him. Most Celtic fans wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole after having the same kind of player for 8 years (even though I loved Rondo). I'm completely satisfied with what Smart brings to court currently and potentially.

[Edug27]

Elfrid can do everything Marcus cant on offense......drive to the basket, finish, tear drops, in the lane jumpers......dunk with authority....

Marcus stinks at all that right now......i like Smart, but on offense Elfrid is no quesiton the better talent.

You have tons of evidence. When was the last time Marcus Posted a triple double? Elfrid has 2, the only ones of any rookie this season

he also has 12 double doubles

I know its all about persepctive here , everybody is a homer


Marcus can of course improve his driving ability

But Elfrid cant improve his shooting ability

You guys kill me.........homers at their best.

You make some valid points here.

[wizfactor94]

Elfrid can do everything Marcus cant on offense......drive to the basket, finish, tear drops, in the lane jumpers......dunk with authority....

Marcus stinks at all that right now......i like Smart, but on offense Elfrid is no quesiton the better talent.

You have tons of evidence. When was the last time Marcus Posted a triple double? Elfrid has 2, the only ones of any rookie this season

he also has 12 double doubles

I know its all about persepctive here , everybody is a homer


Marcus can of course improve his driving ability

But Elfrid cant improve his shooting ability

You guys kill me.........homers at their best.

We had Rondo for 8 years. I think we are better judges on whether a player with completely broken jump shooting mechanics can improve or not.

Tons of evidence? How old are you? They're freakin' rookies dude. Get out of here with that stuff. The only evidence we have is that Smart was the best attacking guard in college and Payton has never been able to shoot a jumpshot in his life. Who do you think is more likely to improve in their deficiencies based on that evidence? Somehow you believe Payton will learn how to shoot even though he's never been able to, but Smart will somehow completely forget how to do what he was best at only a year ago? Let's also completely ignore the fact that Smart has gone from a 29% 3PT shooter in college on a shorter line to a 33% 3PT shooter at the NBA line, which is respectable. We aren't being the "homers" here.

I honestly couldn't care less about Payton vs Smart comparisons anyway. Payton has talent. That's good for him. Most Celtic fans wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole after having the same kind of player for 8 years (even though I loved Rondo). I'm completely satisfied with what Smart brings to court currently and potentially.

Elfrid was a good shooter in college you dope.

And it does not matter, its about potential , you watch them play you will know who can do what better. Its about potential here.

[15th overall]

After seeing Elfrid go something like 3 for 15 at the FT line, I can tell you right now that I'm all set with having our primary ballhandler shoot FTs like that again.

That thought's completely independent of anything Smart-related. I have no idea if Smart will end up the better player, but I do know that I'd rather gamble with Marcus at #6 overall, that's for damn sure.

[wizfactor94]

After seeing Elfrid go something like 3 for 15 at the FT line, I can tell you right now that I'm all set with having our primary ballhandler shoot FTs like that again.

That thought's completely independent of anything Smart-related. I have no idea if Smart will end up the better player, but I do know that I'd rather gamble with Marcus at #6 overall, that's for damn sure.

of course, one game, typical homer response,

keep them coming.

[wizfactor94]

Rondo shot 64.7 from the line his rookie year

Marcus Smart shooting 65%

but somehow they are crapping on Elfrid's Free throw percentage at 55%



How can you get through to green goggled fans?

[KGboss]

I can tell you one thing. You wont get through to us by acting like a jackass with your abbrassive attack comments and overall judgemental attitude. Nothing youve said is constructive to your point or gives any sort of groundbreaking evidence or facts to your opinion.

Elfrid has gaps. So does Smart. Where are we REALLY going with this that makes you think your opinion is somehow better than everyone else's opinion? I see a guy in Payton who has some serious limitations that may not make him the better pick than Smart and vice versa.

However, coming on this forum and attacking all of us with petty names shows you are either A.) a child B.) drunk or C.) trying too hard. I'm going to assume you're just trying to hard because the evidence is not conclusive at this point in both of their ROOKIE careers.

[15th overall]

After seeing Elfrid go something like 3 for 15 at the FT line, I can tell you right now that I'm all set with having our primary ballhandler shoot FTs like that again.

That thought's completely independent of anything Smart-related. I have no idea if Smart will end up the better player, but I do know that I'd rather gamble with Marcus at #6 overall, that's for damn sure.

of course, one game, typical homer response,

keep them coming.

No, his form was equally horrifying in the other Magic games too, even if the percentages weren't as hideous.

As I said, I have no idea if Smart will end up being the better player, Elfrid could very well end up the superior player in the long run... but at #6, I'll take the gamble with Smart (or Randle or Vonleh) rather than settle for another trainwreck at the FT line.

For the rest of EP's career, every summer we're gonna be hearing about how Elfrid's hard at work to fix his form (only to have minimal results). He's got nothing to work with on that form.. it's not a matter of tweaking this or that--- dude needs to completely start over from scratch and I don't know of many people that have done that successfully. I'll roll the dice rather than deal with that isht again. I'm good w/ that.

[TommyPointGawd]

I really like Payton. A lot. And obviously you can make a good case on why he is better than smart. But most of these people have watched Smart for 50+ games and see how much he contributes to winning that transcend the stat sheet. Celtics are in the playoff hunt and every game is a must win. The shot Smart hit against Toronto is bigger than any shot Payton has taken all year. (Not really his fault)
I'm sure Smart would have better stats if Stevens main goal was to develop him. So no real point in arguing, they both have very different styles and I think both have bright futures. I don't think Cs would trade smart for Payton and probably vice versa. It should be a good matchup for years to come. But unfair now because Cs are playing for the playoffs and magic are focusing on development.

[truth18]

Rondo shot 64.7 from the line his rookie year

Marcus Smart shooting 65%

but somehow they are crapping on Elfrid's Free throw percentage at 55%



How can you get through to green goggled fans?

Dat Grunfeldian angst.

[humblebum]

Elfrid , anyone who watch's both play knows that. The rest are either homers, or just dumb. Who has made a more impact on playoff hopes this year? Yes Smart, but talent wise Elfrid is just better especially on offense, its not even close.

Elfrid Payton can't shoot and will never be able to with his horrid mechanics. You can keep him and your preference.

Smart is already a dominant defender on the ball and particularly in the team concept (if he had not gotten hurt earlier in the year he could've been an all defensive team guy as a rookie). Offensively he can space the floor (something Payton will NEVER be able to do), move the ball (he's got an excellent feel for where his teammates are and doesn't "over dribble").

Honestly, I think people are just dismissing Smart's ability to drive the ball and get to the free throw line because he's struggled as a rookie in those regards. But that's foolish. You don't just dismiss who a player has been his entire life because he struggles in a certain aspect in their rookie season. Smart will become a respectable driver/finisher/FTr guy in time.

Similarly, no one should take a season for a few months of Smart hitting threes and project that he's going to become a 40% 3 pt shooter some day.

Why do you say he will never be able to do?

Stop being such a homer

Elfrid could shoot in college......and he has improved mightily in the last couple months

Sorry for your homerism, hes much better

Now he's much better? Laughable.

Payton has one of the ugliest shooting forms going in the NBA. Good luck with that. You can lay so far off a guy like Payton that you're forced to simply keep the ball in his hands to run any type of successful offense. The only problem is that Payton isn't Lebron, so he'll fail to lead his team anywhere significant as a #1 guy on the ball.

Smart can defend his butt off, and stay out of the way and contribute as needed offensively. Payton can help you, but only so far, and at other times his lack of shooting kills his teams spacing.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Elfrid , anyone who watch's both play knows that. The rest are either homers, or just dumb. Who has made a more impact on playoff hopes this year? Yes Smart, but talent wise Elfrid is just better especially on offense, its not even close.

If Elfrid Payton is so good on offense, why is his O rating 97? For reference, the league average is 105.6 and Marcus Smart is 100.

Believe me, as a guy who followed Rondo's career from the start, he's the same exact player as Elfrid. Good, sometimes great player. Will post flashy stats, but is undeniably a detriment on offense. The next time a PG who can't shoot leads his team to the title will be the first time. Good luck.

Edit-

As a follow up, the worst offense in the league, Philadelphia, has an O-rating of 96. The next lowest is above 100. If Elfrid Payton is so good (and so much better than Smart in the process), why is he producing a bottom of the barrel O Rating. Facts are facts, you're eyes are lying, the stats are not.

[pfm]

I enjoy when people bring up that Smarts FG% is lower than Payton's, but ignore that Smart has a better TS%. A lot of these arguments also come for cumulative stats (points, ast, rebs...etc), but ignore that Payton has a higher usage rate and has played about 650 more total minutes (thus should be further along in development). Role on the team matters a lot.

Advanced stats also suggest that Smart has generally been a more impactful player than Payton this year. I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread (about 3 weeks ago) to avoid the work of digging everything back up (the stats have changed slightly, but not drastically)

It's funny that this was created as a sort of "Payton > Smart" thread, because many of the more common advanced metrics disagree, despite Payton playing nearly 50% more minutes than Smart (if you assume that leads to increased development).

Offensive Rating
Smart - 100
Payton - 94

Defensive Rating
Smart - 105
Payton - 107

Offensive Win Shares
Smart - 0.4
Payton - -0.8

Defensive Win Shares
Smart - 1.5
Payton - 1.6

Win Shares per 48
Smart - .067
Payton - .021

Total Win Shares
Smart - 1.9
Payton - 0.8

Off. Box Plus Minus
Smart - -0.2
Payton - -2.2

Def. Box Plus Minus
Smart - 0.8
Payton - 0.4

Total Box Plus Minus
Smart - 0.5
Payton - -1.8

Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
Smart - 0.9
Payton - 0.1

Now obviously all metrics have flaws, but the consensus is there. Basically you can't just say "look this guy averages more points and assists!". There's a lot more to it than that, but unfortunately volume seems to be the primary factor when people look at rookies and their perceived success (see MCW). And that's not a knock on Payton, both he and Smart are nice young players, though both flawed offensively at the moment (Payton more so than Smart).

To Payton's benefit, he's been able to produce in more volume and with a bigger offensive role than Smart, which does hold some value, however most of the numbers feel that Smart is a more impactful player when on the floor. For Smart, having played about 600 total minutes less than Smart (about 20 full games worth), these numbers are impressive considering the rookie learning curve and in the fact that he still outproduces Payton in cumulative stats such as total win shares.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

This became a pissing match rather quickly. Both are good, neither is great. Smart is a natural leader with great defensive instincts. Elfrid attacks the rim successfully the way I wish smart would. It looks like your happy on your side of the fence and we r happy on our side. I wouldn't exactly call you a troll cause you're bringing up some good arguments but youre also starting to flame bait which is slightly troll-ish. Not saying your a troll. I'm just saying you can find out more about your ethnicity on 23anme.com. All you have to do is swab your cheek and send it in and within a couple of weeks they'll have a complete breakdown of your ethnicity down to the smallest percentage. I found out I have 3.5% Neandertal in me. I was shocked. i found out it's not uncommon. It's actually quite normal in everybody to have a small percentage in them. But if you find some troll blood in you, please let us know. We'll try n find you the proper support.

[truth18]

This became a pissing match rather quickly. Both are good, neither is great. Smart is a natural leader with great defensive instincts. Elfrid attacks the rim successfully the way I wish smart would. It looks like your happy on your side of the fence and we r happy on our side. I wouldn't exactly call you a troll cause you're bringing up some good arguments but youre also starting to flame bait which is slightly troll-ish. Not saying your a troll. I'm just saying you can find out more about your ethnicity on 23anme.com. All you have to do is swab your cheek and send it in and within a couple of weeks they'll have a complete breakdown of your ethnicity down to the smallest percentage. I found out I have 3.5% Neandertal in me. I was shocked. i found out it's not uncommon. It's actually quite normal in everybody to have a small percentage in them. But if you find some troll blood in you, please let us know. We'll try n find you the proper support.

LOL

Ot: are you being serious about actually having tried it out? I was thinking of doing it as I have some crazy distant family history from India to Ireland.

[wizfactor94]

I can tell you one thing. You wont get through to us by acting like a jackass with your abbrassive attack comments and overall judgemental attitude. Nothing youve said is constructive to your point or gives any sort of groundbreaking evidence or facts to your opinion.

Elfrid has gaps. So does Smart. Where are we REALLY going with this that makes you think your opinion is somehow better than everyone else's opinion? I see a guy in Payton who has some serious limitations that may not make him the better pick than Smart and vice versa.

However, coming on this forum and attacking all of us with petty names shows you are either A.) a child B.) drunk or C.) trying too hard. I'm going to assume you're just trying to hard because the evidence is not conclusive at this point in both of their ROOKIE careers.

Opinions get real. Just because I may come back stronger, it does not mean that your fellow com-padres don't try to make their opinions sound like actual fact.

Sorry for backing up my arguments. Too bad everyone cannot do that, it's all denial or homer-ism, or outright defending of their own player.

See it both ways.

[wizfactor94]

I can tell you one thing. You wont get through to us by acting like a jackass with your abbrassive attack comments and overall judgemental attitude. Nothing youve said is constructive to your point or gives any sort of groundbreaking evidence or facts to your opinion.

Elfrid has gaps. So does Smart. Where are we REALLY going with this that makes you think your opinion is somehow better than everyone else's opinion? I see a guy in Payton who has some serious limitations that may not make him the better pick than Smart and vice versa.

However, coming on this forum and attacking all of us with petty names shows you are either A.) a child B.) drunk or C.) trying too hard. I'm going to assume you're just trying to hard because the evidence is not conclusive at this point in both of their ROOKIE careers.

'

One example is up on top

the guy says

Elfrid has to fix his form, and it will have minimal results year by year




That to me is worse than what I am saying, these guys are the ones who get mad and star acting like they know everything, form , results, wether he will ever shoot well.

I never said anything to down Smart......i only back up with evidence or certain scouting reports..

Im not going to say that Smart will never drive because all he does is takes three pointers


apparently all the people in here are coaches and know what can be fixed or what cant...

of course to fit their Homeric narrative

[wizfactor94]

I enjoy when people bring up that Smarts FG% is lower than Payton's, but ignore that Smart has a better TS%. A lot of these arguments also come for cumulative stats (points, ast, rebs...etc), but ignore that Payton has a higher usage rate and has played about 650 more total minutes (thus should be further along in development). Role on the team matters a lot.

Advanced stats also suggest that Smart has generally been a more impactful player than Payton this year. I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread (about 3 weeks ago) to avoid the work of digging everything back up (the stats have changed slightly, but not drastically)

It's funny that this was created as a sort of "Payton > Smart" thread, because many of the more common advanced metrics disagree, despite Payton playing nearly 50% more minutes than Smart (if you assume that leads to increased development).

Offensive Rating
Smart - 100
Payton - 94

Defensive Rating
Smart - 105
Payton - 107

Offensive Win Shares
Smart - 0.4
Payton - -0.8

Defensive Win Shares
Smart - 1.5
Payton - 1.6

Win Shares per 48
Smart - .067
Payton - .021

Total Win Shares
Smart - 1.9
Payton - 0.8

Off. Box Plus Minus
Smart - -0.2
Payton - -2.2

Def. Box Plus Minus
Smart - 0.8
Payton - 0.4

Total Box Plus Minus
Smart - 0.5
Payton - -1.8

Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
Smart - 0.9
Payton - 0.1

Now obviously all metrics have flaws, but the consensus is there. Basically you can't just say "look this guy averages more points and assists!". There's a lot more to it than that, but unfortunately volume seems to be the primary factor when people look at rookies and their perceived success (see MCW). And that's not a knock on Payton, both he and Smart are nice young players, though both flawed offensively at the moment (Payton more so than Smart).

To Payton's benefit, he's been able to produce in more volume and with a bigger offensive role than Smart, which does hold some value, however most of the numbers feel that Smart is a more impactful player when on the floor. For Smart, having played about 600 total minutes less than Smart (about 20 full games worth), these numbers are impressive considering the rookie learning curve and in the fact that he still outproduces Payton in cumulative stats such as total win shares.

What do you not understand.......Stats are nothing in these cases...especially these types..

Payton is an amazing penetrating point guard with fantastic finishing ability,,,,,,ability that Rondo never had. Rondo was only about 6'1 at best,, elfrid is 6'3 without shoes. Its 2 inches are huge for a point guard.

My opinion is solely based on visual, you can tell who can drive to the bucket and who really cannot.....

Smart may improve on this...

But Payton has shown incredible ability

If he gets his shot even halfway decent he will be a very good point guard...

He already posesses way better point guard abilities than Smart.

If Smart hadn't had any defense than he would not be talked about.

Talent goes to Elfrid.