Questions from a Newbie

[Ted Lasso]

Thanks for that mate. I know that Blind and Valencia are LB and RB, with Jones and Smalling at CB. Likewise, I know that Rooney is going to play CF and De Gea is the goalie. Where I'm unsure is in the midfield. Assuming that Young and Mata are out wide and move up to the wing spots when attacking, that leaves Carrick, Herrera and Fellaini in the centre of the midfield. Who's playing the defensive role, the central role and the attacking role?

They've been playing a three-man midfield recently with Carrick serving as a holding midfielder (or defensive midfielder). Herrera and Fellaini have been positioned to his right and left respectively. In this particular shape, they are both central midfielders.

[Ted Lasso]

Now if I'm understanding formations properly, the 4-1-4-1 formation is a type of 4-5-1, where the 1 midfielder plays more defensive, and the other 4 play more attacking? So if that's the case, two of the midfielders push forward when in attack, which changes it to more of a 4-3-3 formation like you mentioned?

4-1-4-1 is basically the same thing as a 4-5-1 because your defensive midfielder will inevitably be positioned deeper than your central midfielders either way.

The distinction between those two and a 4-3-3 is based on how offensive the wingers are and whether they interact with the striker or the midfielders as a unit. Sometimes the formation will resemble a 4-3-3 on one side and a 4-1-4-1 on the other due to the personalities of the players involved.

[TNBT]

Just wondering something else... if there's a max of 6 subs, then what do the rest of the guys listed on the first team do? Like if they're not in the starting lineup or one of the 6 subs, do they play in some sort of reserves team? Or just not play at all?

[5DOM]

Some are youngsters or rehabbing players who play in the U21 (reserves) matches, but most just sit on the bench in their awful casual clothes.

[Gandalf]

In Italian league there is no reserve team, they just sit in the stands.

[Baphomet]

Awesome (again). A lot of love for you guys in this thread for helping out myself and other newbies. A lot of the questions probably seem pretty basic and obvious to you guys, but I appreciate you all helping us learn.

We're all in favour of new fans coming in and posting on the soccer board here, it keeps discussions interesting. I think we have one of the best and most knowledgable communities on RealGM here, if somewhat small in size.

[Dirk]

Just wondering something else... if there's a max of 6 subs, then what do the rest of the guys listed on the first team do? Like if they're not in the starting lineup or one of the 6 subs, do they play in some sort of reserves team? Or just not play at all?

Mostly, they just don't play much. They'll get game time when there are injuries/rotation for rest/games in minor cups.

Some countries have "B" teams, meaning, like their D-League team, that competes in a lower division. Countries such as Spain, Portugal or Germany. So they get to play some games during the season by going down... but this is more for young players.

In England, teams have 'reserve teams', that compete among themselves, but again for young players... senior players get some games if they're out of injuries or something like that.

Generally, thinking of a top team: you have like 16-18 chore players, of which 13-15 are regulars. Then it's pretty hopeless. Thinking about Real Madrid - they have 12-13 players with major minutes. Barcelona have like 14-15.

Thanks Baphomet. So assuming that all players are healthy and not suspended, etc, do teams usually use the same starting players every game? Or is the starting lineup something that also varies regularly?

Yes, managers don't like to make changes to a winning team. Other than external reasons, managers will only fiddle around with the starting eleven to rest a couple of players every now and then. Some positions are more key than others, particularly in defense - you want to have a reliable chore and keep it in place every game.

I haven't read this thread all the way back, but noticed you've picked United as your team. You'll notice that Van Gaal has now found his 'team'... and Di Maria, despite the huge price tag, has been on the bench. He'll keep that formula until they struggle again.

There are different competitions, with different degrees of importance. Champions League / League. Then comes the rest. There's the League Cup, where wholesale changes are made and younger players get minutes. During the league, only when there's a congestion of fixtures, will you see several changes to the lineups.

[Dirk]

It sounds like SEC college football down here in the south. It's been called a religion too.

I've heard that the soccer crowds will attack opposing fans, is this true?

Lmaoooo almost every time

Oh my........

There's a whole police operation in place to guide opposing fans to the games. At least major ones. There are organized groups of fans that are ultra fanatic, some times containing a lot of people with questionable activities(criminals, drugs), who do their own show, with flares, chants all games. It's not the college atmosphere of bands playing. It's much darker. Much much darker.

The guy you quoted, has a Galatasaray avatar. Just recently a team bus in Turkey was attacked(shot at!).

-------------------

Players flop... because often if they stay up, the ref won't call the foul. They flop... because they want to get the rival player yellow carded. Yeah....... in some countries, from a very young age, kids learn the dark side of the game - it's one of the reasons why England often struggles in major competitions - they're just outsmarted by latin countries that use every trick to control games. You can even see that in the Champions League with a team like Atletico Madrid - they use every trick in the book to combat against clubs with much larger budgets. It's all part of the game.

[TNBT]

I haven't read this thread all the way back, but noticed you've picked United as your team.

Yep. I've never been a big football fan until recently, but even as a kid, despite not being much of a fan of the sport, I always liked Manchester United. I remember wearing a United jersey back in high school (I'm 31 now). I also had a Brazil International jersey as a kid, because I loved to watch those guys play. Internationally speaking though, I'm primarily a Soccerroos fan, which I guess should be pretty obvious being that I'm an Aussie

[Dirk]

I haven't read this thread all the way back, but noticed you've picked United as your team.

Yep. I've never been a big football fan until recently, but even as a kid, despite not being much of a fan of the sport, I always liked Manchester United. I remember wearing a United jersey back in high school (I'm 31 now). I also had a Brazil International jersey as a kid, because I loved to watch those guys play. Internationally speaking though, I'm primarily a Soccerroos fan, which I guess should be pretty obvious being that I'm an Aussie

It's natural. United are such a global brand... and back then in 90s they began to dominate the Premier League and were probably the pioneers in expanding their brand internationally and market it over there in Australia and in Asia.

The most notable difference between Football(Europe) and US Sports(NBA/NFL) is exactly why you're almost condemned to pick one of the bigger clubs to follow in Europe.

No cap in Europe. The bigger clubs will always have an advantage and dominate. England is actually unique because there are several big clubs with rich tradition and following. Currently, you can argue there are four big clubs that should aim to win the league(Chelsea, City, United and Arsenal). Then Liverpool is lagging a bit behind. Spurs are also behind - on paper they should be closer to the top four, but they're always inconsistent. In Germany there's only one club - Bayern. In Spain, only two huge ones - Real and Barça. In Italy, they're still going through a terrible crisis that killed what was once a league full of stars. The tv rights deal the Premier League just signed is monstruous and blows away pretty much anything, with even the bottom side in the league pocketing over 100 million a year... this will likely mean that even the smaller clubs will be able to attract very very good players from other leagues.

The irony is that when Abramovich bought Chelsea and poured hundreds of millions. Then City got bought and also benefited from immense investment... you saw a movement where a club could come out of 'nowhere' and suddenly buy stars, build one of the best squads in the league... through the investment of their billionaire owners.

Now, pretty much to restore the 'dominance' of the bigger clubs, UEFA instituted a kind of cap... but for spending of the clubs, which limits the spending in function of how much the club generates. Salaries are still unlimited and going up. Basically, you can only spend what you make... which of course makes it hard for a new billionaire to come in buy a club and then buy players for big money - they won't be able to do it since that club wouldn't generate enough revenue.

It's all a bit messy, on one hand UEFA have a legitimate point about ensuring sustainability of clubs(as soon as a billionaire gets fed up, that club will be in great trouble), but on another end... they're basically turning away money, all ending up serving to benefit the traditional biggest clubs, who naturally generate more money and therefore will be allowed to spend more than another clubs who have smaller followings, smaller stadiums, smaller tv and commercial deals. United have huge deals and will be fine going forward.

You can pick the Wolves or the Browns in the US and legitimately hope that with good management and some luck(draft) your team can become one of the best in the league. In Europe, outside the big clubs, you know your team will always be up and down and won't have much to aim for in the season other than get a cup final/Europa League/ or simply avoid relegation. With this said, it's also an advantage over the US(NBA in particular), where the tanking culture is so strong - with the relegation threat, the battle to avoid getting relegated is in itself quite entertaining... and ensures everyone will be competing to win, since there's no reward for losing, just punishment.

[TNBT]

Thanks for that, Dirk. I didn't know much about the game from a business or financial standpoint, so it's interesting to read your post. Sounds like a flawed system though in that it essentially guarantees that the big clubs will stay good (or at least be able to afford the best players) while the smaller clubs are limited in who they can afford, and would need for someone to really want to play there or get a hometown discount or whatever if they hope to land a star player.

[lukekarts]

Yeah the Italian Serie A has historically been one of the top two leagues in Europe, for example it has produced 12 champions league winners (14 for Spain, 12 for England, 7 for Germany...).

Milan, Inter, Juve have been reasonably consistent over the years - but the emergence of other well-supported clubs as title challengers has happened for shorter periods, e.g. Roma, Lazio (the giants of Rome), Fiorentina, Napoli (thanks to Maradona), Genoa...

In the late 90's, Italian clubs were big spenders, investing in foreign stars (and youngsters) as well as having a wealth of homegrown talent.

For instance, in 1999, the Italian league hosted: Gabriel Batistuta (arguably the best striker of the 90s), Hernan Crespo, Andriy Shevchenko, Oliver Bierhoff, Ivan Zamorano, Ronaldo, Roberto Mancini, Zidane, Pavel Nedved, Rui Costa, Ariel Ortega, Thierry Henry, Juan Sebastian Veron, Dejan Stankovic, Leonardo, Sergio Conceicao, Diego Simeone, Didier Deschamps, Edgar Davids, Javier Zanetti, Cafu, Lilian Thuram, Paolo Montero, Aldair, Sinisa Mihalovic, Roberto Ayala...

... as well as homegrown stars such as Gianluigi Buffon, Gianluca Zambrotta, Fabio Cannavaro, Alessandro Nesta, Alessandro Costacurta, Ciro Ferrara, Paulo Maldini, Gennaro Gattuso, Andrea Pirlo, Dino Baggio Roberto Baggio, Francesco Totti, Christian Vieri, Pipo Inzaghi, Alessandro Del Piero.

That was pretty much 70% of the top talent in football at the time, albeit spread across about 8 teams.

The problem was, teams were expecting a surge in income so went on a spending spree that proved not to be sustainable, and many of the clubs are still recovering today.

Parma went from title challengers to bankrupt today. Fiorentina went bankrupt and were rebuilt from the bottom up. Juve, Milan, Roma, Inter all had some success late into the 00's but still had massive restructuring. The league has clearly still not recovered and languishes some way off Spain and England right now.

[TNBT]

Thanks for the info, lukekarts. I've always hated the Italian team since one of their players took a monumental dive to score the winning goal against Australia a few World Cups ago, but I like learning about the different leagues.

[Gandalf]

Thanks for the info, lukekarts. I've always hated the Italian team since one of their players took a monumental dive to score the winning goal against Australia a few World Cups ago, but I like learning about the different leagues.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS5yLSynG2g[/youtube]
Grosso my man haha

[TNBT]

I've decided that for the sake of my blood pressure, I'm not going to watch that.

[AlexDelta]

Also if someone tells you it's football not soccer tell them to shut up. Soccer is short for Association football. The word soccer is even an english (as from England) word. Nobody cares about the Italians calling it Calcio either.

[Goudelock]

Also if someone tells you it's football not soccer tell them to shut up. Soccer is short for Association football. The word soccer is even an english (as from England) word. Nobody cares about the Italians calling it Calcio either.

Yeah, I don't really care about what people want to call it. If people in England started calling Basketball something like shoeball, then more power to them. It's the same game.