ATNE Tournament, Round 1: 3. Quotatious v. 14. Dr. Spaceman

[JeepCSC]

All-Time Non-Elite Tournament. Write-ups to follow.

[Owly]

Team Seed Pick Team Seed Pick
Quotatious 3 3 Dr Spaceman 14 10
Kevin Garnett 1 3 Steve Nash 1 10
Clyde Drexler 2 30 Amar'e Stoudemire 2 23
Ben Wallace 3 35 Dennis Rodman 3 42
Kevin Johnson 4 62 Andre Iguodala 4 55
Predrag Stojakovic 5 67 Jeff Hornacek 5 74
Michael Cooper 6 94 Tyson Chandler 6 87
Rick Adelman 7 99 James Worthy 7 106
Brad Daugherty 8 126 Steve Kerr - replaced by George Karl 8 119
Tayshaun Prince 9 131 LaMarcus Aldridge 9 138
Hersey Hawkins 10 158 Doug Christie 10 151
Clifford Robinson 11 163 Goran Dragic 11 170

3
Quotatious
Ben Wallace
Kevin Garnett
Predrag Stojakovic
Clyde Drexler
Kevin Johnson

Brad Daugherty
Clifford Robinson
Tayshaun Prince
Hersey Hawkins
Michael Cooper

Coach: Rick Adelman

Spoiler:

Here's why my team would be great:

The main thing is that Ben Wallace and Kevin Garnett give me GOAT level interior defense and rebounding. Wallace's average DBPM for the 3-year stretch I selected is +6.8 - he led the league in DBPM and DWS every year between '02 and '04, and his defensive splits in NPI RAPM were +2.2, +2.6 and +3.6 - he peaked at +4.6 on defense in prior informed RAPM, in 2004. His average TRB% between '02 and '04 was 21.1% - second in '02, first in '03 and third in '04. He's a two time DPOY, in '02 and '03, and finished second in '04 (also won two more, in '05 and '06). He was also one of the best shotblockers in the NBA, with 6.3% BLK.
Garnett's average DBPM between '03 and '05 was +4.4 (ranked 7th, 4th and 6th, respectively), ranked 4th in DWS in '03, and second in both '04 and '05. His average TRB% was 19.7% - ranked 4th, 2nd and 4th, respectively. Garnett obviously won the MVP in '04 (almost unanimously - he got 120 of 123 possible first place votes), and finished as a fairly close runner-up behind Duncan in '03. Garnett also had 2+ defensive splits in RAPM. KG was a fairly decent shotblocker (3.1% BLK), but it's not the most important aspect of his defense - the most important thing about Garnett's defense is his ability to disrupt pick & rolls and command his team's defense, be a vocal leader. Both Garnett and Wallace were outstanding pick & roll defenders, and Big Ben was also an elite rim protector, despite being a bit undersized for a center (but he had very long arms). Remember how great Ben and Rasheed were, defensively? Ben and Kevin would be even better.

Wallace and Garnett are both top 10 (arguably even top 5) defensive players of all-time. Think about it - we've never seen anything like it in the NBA, maybe except for Duncan/Robinson (but unlike the Spurs duo, my guys would be at their absolute peaks).

Depending on matchups, I can also start Brad Daugherty alongside KG. He's not a very good defender, but he's a certainly an excellent, polished low post scorer (21.1 ppg on 61.4% TS) , and a great passer (Garnett may be an even better passer). I plan on splitting the minutes fairly evenly between Wallace and Daugherty, because one guy brings exactly what the other lacks - Wallace is a great defender, but very poor offensive player, Daugherty is the opposite (but Brad's defense is better than Ben's offense). However, I'd rather start Ben, to set the tone defensively right from the beginning, along with KG, and then Daugherty comes in to provide an extra scoring punch. Daugherty was also a good rebounder - 10.5 rpg, 16.0% TRB.

My backup power forward is Clifford Robinson - stretch 4, good athlete, good defender. Almost 37% from beyond the arc, on over 5 attempts per game (I've selected '95-'97 versions of him, and the 3-point line was shortened all three seasons, but he was still a pretty respectable 3-point shooter even with the normal 3-point line, after '97). Capable of averaging 20+ ppg, on about league average efficiency (as he did twice during that 3-year stretch). Really bad rebounder, but I won't use him that much - KG will play about 35-37 minutes, so Cliff only plays about 11-13 minutes, and I'll make sure that Ben Wallace is on the floor with Cliff, all the time, to help mask his weakness as a rebounder.

Now, my backcourt - extremely explosive, awesome transition/open court players like Drexler and KJ - both excellent scorers and playmakers, both pretty unselfish. We're talking about consistent All-NBA 2nd team level performers, in the era when they had to compete with guards like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and John Stockton, among others. Drexler even made the All-NBA 1st team, at his peak in 1992.
KJ is gonna be the primary ballhandler and offensive threat in half-court offense. KJ/KG pick and roll (by the way - both guys have the same first and middle name - Kevin Maurice, which is funny) is gonna be one of the most important parts of my offensive system.
Drexler worked very well as an off-ball player, and he'll have a chance to do so on my team, plus he'll be the secondary ballhandler.

Hersey Hawkins is a great shooter (40% on 3.3 attempts in the early 90s), capable of creating his own shot, and playing decent defense. He also moves the ball well. Seems like a good backup for Clyde.

Michael Cooper brings exactly what Kevin Johnson lacks - size, versatile defense and 3-point shooting (especially in the playoffs, where he shot 45% on 3.1 attempts per game, in the mid/late 80s ). He was actually coming off the bench for a stacked team, for almost his entire career, so I'm sure he would accept this role.

My small forwards also complement each other pretty well. Peja Stojakovic is one of the best 3-point shooters in NBA history, he shot over 41% on almost 6 attempts per game, during the 3-year stretch I've selected. Tayshaun Prince was a very good defender (Peja certainly wasn't), with great length, but also good enough quickness to guard explosive wing players (he did a very good job guarding Kobe in the 2004 finals). Also a decent 3-pt shooter - 36.2% on 2.2 attempts per game.
Stojakovic is also comfortable playing off-ball, so I can have KJ and Drexler as my primary ballhandlers/playmakers, and even allow KG to play some point forward, at times (like he did so often in Minnesota, in the early/mid 2000s).

Finally, my team will be coached by Rick Adelman. I have three players who Adelman actually coached (Drexler and Robinson in Portland, Stojakovic in Sacramento), and I also have bigmen who are tailor-made for Adelman's Princeton offense - KG will play Chris Webber's role (he's just as good offensively, also a terrific passer/playmaker for a PF, but way better defensively), and Brad Daugherty playing Divac's/Brad Miller's role.


To be perfectly honest, I don't see any team that would be clearly superior than mine. I really like trex's, Owly's and RSCD's teams, but I think my guys could beat anybody here.

Any early power rankings, guys?

14

Dr Spaceman
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dennis Rodman
Andre Iguodala
Jeff Hornacek
Steve Nash

Tyson Chandler
LaMarcus Aldridge
James Worthy
Doug Christie
Goran Dragic

Coach: George Karl

Spoiler:

Hype train pulling into the station...

There has never been anything like the heights my team will be able to reach offensively. Obviously the star of the show is Steve Nash, arguably the most gifted playmaker in the history of the league, and the guy who led a scorching offensive dynasty the likes of which the league had never seen. Nash is dynamic, brings the best offensive talents out of anyone he plays with, fosters a communal team environment (most underrated aspect of his greatness), and leads the charge on my blistering attack. Give him his partner in crime to finish off pick and roll, and you're already on your way to building an offensive powerhouse. I could watch hours and hours of those two guys running PNR over and over again and never get bored. Nash is fun.

Besides Nash, I have 3 other elite playmakers on my squad, namely Iguodala, Hornacek, and Dragic. Seriously, when Goran Dragic is arguably the 4th best playmaker on your team, that's a borderline miracle. It means that no matter what lineup I put out, I will have at least 1 elite playmaker on the floor at all times, and most of the time even two or 3. Picture the ball zipping around the floor end to end, with wide open 3s and dunks before the defense even knows what hit them. The Spurs and Hawks combined couldn't dream of doing what my team is about to offensively.

Rodman is the lynchpin, the glue guy, whatever. He's the guy who holds everything together behind the scenes while everyone runs wild. The greatest rebounder by far since the 60s, and one of the most versatile and effective defenders in NBA history. He can guard anyone from 1-5 (literally, he's guarded Magic in the Finals and Shaq in a playoff series), and he can start the break with his outlet passes. He's the enforcer on my team, and brings intensity and hustle, setting an example for everyone on the defensive end.

Another key tenet of my team is versatility. My identity is obviously SSOL, but I knew it couldn't be an all-the-time thing. I went out and targeted guys who are long, tenacious defenders, and could play multiple positions. I can throw out lineups like Nash/Christie/Iggy/Rodman/Chandler... good luck scoring on that. With Rodman/Iggy/Christie on the wings, my team will be impossible to move the ball against and frustrate the hell out of opposing ball-handlers.

My team also has a plethora of shooters, with Nash/Horny/Dragic/Aldridge all being elite shooters and Iggy, Christie and Worthy being very respectable in their own right. Bombs away!

And finally, I've probably assembled the most potent fast break you will ever see. With Nash leading the charge and weapons like Worthy, Dragic, Iguodala... Jesus wept.

Yeah, I'm feeling my team.

Steve Nash (2005-2007)
Jeff Hornacek (1990-1992)
Andre Iguodala (2010-2012)
Dennis Rodman (1990-1992)
Amar'e Stoudemire (2005-2008, injured in 2007)

Bench:
Goran Dragic (2013-2015)
Doug Christie (2001-2003)
James Worthy (1987-1989)
LaMarcus Aldridge (2013-2015)
Tyson Chandler (2011-2013)

Oh and since Q is providing stats, I can't let my team have less hype than someone else.

Steve Nash: 17.7/11.2 on .513/.444/.903, +6.11 ORAPM in 2005, +6.04 in 2006, +10.22 in 2007.
Jeff Hornacek: 18.3/5.6 AST on .521/.425/.881 (Yes, both my starting guards are essentially 50/40/90 guys)
Andre Iguodala: 16.8/5.7/6.0 and +3.34/+4.94 in DRAPM.
Dennis Rodman: DPOY in 90 and 91. TRB% of 19.0, 21.3 (led league), and 26.2 (led league by a mile)
Amar'e Stoudemire: 23.9/9.2 on .632 TS% (finished 5th in scoring and 1st in TS% in 2008)

Goran Dragic: 17.1/5.9 on .484/.360/.757 with a peak season of 20.3/5.9 on .505/.408/.760
Doug Christie: 2.2 stl and .372 from 3. +4.93 and +6.60 in DRAPM. 1 1st team All-D and 2 2nd team All-D.
James Worthy: 19.9/5.6 on .577 TS%, stepped up his scoring to 22.9 in the playoffs "Big Game James".
LaMarcus Aldridge: 22.6/10.1 on .522 TS%.
Tyson Chandler: 10.6/9.9 on .692 TS% (led league all 3 years) +3.61, +3.60 in DRAPM.

My starting 1-3 average 22.5 assists between them. My 2 starting guards are both 50/40/90. I have a defensive terror at every position except PG. I have the GOAT rebounder and the GOAT playmaker. I have the GOAT pick and roll big and two of the best transition players coming off my bench. LOADED.

[Quotatious]

Okay, so let's see...

My general strategy:

C - Wallace starting, both he and Daugherty playing about 24 minutes. I want to give Amar'e different problems - I want Big Ben to make his life difficult on offense, and on the other hand, I want Brad to make him pay for his horrible defense. That being said, I want Ben on the floor most of the time against Amar'e, and Brad most of the time against Chandler. I'm not scared about Chandler as an offensive player - he's a hyperefficient finisher, and you can't do anything about it, but his inability to create shots for himself means that I can put Daugherty on him, and don't worry about getting torched. I'm sure that Chandler's scoring is way down the priority list as far as Spaceman's offensive gameplan is concerned. He won't get a lot of touches.

PF - Primarily, Garnett is going to guard Rodman/LMA, and Stoudemire will be a secondary assignment for him. Amar'e is a very potent offensive weapon, so I don't want KG to guard him a lot, so he won't get into foul trouble. Guarding Rodman means that KG can basically command his team's defense without worrying about getting scored on (that's what he does best, defensively). Well, there's one thing that he has to worry about - keeping Rodman off the offensive board - I know, it's not exactly an easy job, but I feel like I'd have the edge on the boards, no matter what frontcourt duo Spaceman decides to put on the floor, because Wallace and Garnett were both 20% TRB guys, or thereabouts. Rodman is even better, but we're talking about two elite rebounders against one, so I feel good about my team's chances in this regard.

Garnett is pretty much the perfect defender on Aldridge. LMA likes to shoot a lot of mid/long jumpers, and KG has the quickness and length to contest those as well as anyone. Obviously KG's offensive role gets smaller when he has to guard Amar'e or LMA. That's when my backcourt steps up.

SF - Peja would have a hard time being guarded by Iggy, I'm not gonna lie, but he's going to be just my 4th option on offense, just a bit more than a spot-up shooter, so it doesn't bother me that much. Iguodala also isn't a great scorer, so Stojakovic shouldn't get destroyed. I am, however, worried about Worthy being guarded by Peja. VERY worried, actually, but if gets torched two or three times, then I immediately put KG on Big Game James, to slow him down, and '03-'05 KG had enough quickness (plus a pretty solid size advantage) to make Worthy's life difficult. KG isn't fast enough to chase Worthy on the break, but in half-court offense, I like his chances on the defensive end. Obviously I'm going to put Tayshaun Prince on the floor whenever Spaceman starts to go to Worthy, and I feel good about this matchup, especially in half-court. Prince has the length and tenacity to contain Worthy (James will still score a few baskets, for sure, especially on the break, when he was almost unstoppable, but he shouldn't hurt my team as much as usual). Cliff Robinson can guard Worthy, too.

SG - If Spaceman puts Iggy on Drexler (that's what I would do, at least), then it probably means that Hornacek is guarding Stojakovic - naturally, Peja's role gets bigger in this situation, and Clyde is going to focus on facilitating, rather than scoring, when he's guarded by Iggy (or Doug Christie), while Peja becomes more of a scorer. Hersey Hawkins is going to play just about 13 minutes, Drexler about 35, so Hawk's role is not going to be very significant. Well, let's just say that Hawkins is very comparable to Hornacek, these two can basically cancel each other out. I don't think Spaceman will put Horny on Drexler, but is he does, then I'm going to post Clyde up and let him take advantage of his big size and athleticism advantage.

PG - The thing that I like most about this matchup is the fact that I have Kevin Johnson playing against Nash. Offensively, KJ can REALLY cause havoc with Nash or Dragic guarding him. He's going to be my first option on offense (not to mention the primary ballhandler, but this is obvious, I guess). Johnson can go 1 on 1 against Nash/Dragic, but it would be a suicide for Spaceman, so I'm sure he's going to provide help or put someone else on KJ. like Iguodala or Christie. They would do a much better job guarding Johnson, but KJ still has a clear advantage in terms of quickness, and it leaves Drexler or Peja (or both) being guarded by worse defenders, so I'm fine with that, too (if that's the case, then KJ becomes more of a facilitator, and plays pick & roll with KG). Michael Cooper is not going to see a lot of playing time here because Spaceman doesn't have an explosive volume scoring wing. He'll definitely get a chance to guard Nash for at least a few minutes, though.

Spaceman's team is going to run a lot, that's pretty obvious, looking at his players, and that's the way to maximize Nash's potential, but I have an extremely athletic backcourt duo - Drexler and KJ. I think they should be able to get back on defense quick enough to prevent quite a few fast-break opportunities for the opposing team. Peak KG was very mobile for a seven footer, and obviously a terrific defender. Ben Wallace was pretty mobile for a big, too.

In half-court defense, Big Ben and KG are two of the best pick & roll defenders ever, so Nash/Stoudemire or Nash/Aldridge pick & roll/pick & pop would be clearly less effective than it seems "in a vacuum".

Obviously I want to slow the game down for the most part, while Spaceman will likely want to push the tempo. It's not like my team isn't a threat in transition, though...Drexler is a top 5 transition player of all-time, in my opinion, and KJ isn't much worse. Both can score just as well as pass, in transition or in half-court, and both are also WILLING to do so, which is very important.

Having Rick Adelman as my coach, it's obvious that I'll run a lot of Princeton type offense, and let the players figure things out on their own, as far as offense is concerned. I have KG playing Webber's role (Garnett is just as good of a passer/playmaker and scorer as Webber was, but he's a far better defender), Brad Daugherty is a terrific passer who can play Divac/Brad Miller role even better than they could, and Drexler/Peja/Cliff all played for Adelman for quite a few years, so they are well-accustomed to his system. Guys like Hersey Hawkins and Michael Cooper seem tailor-made for his system, too.

Minutes distribution:

C - Wallace 24/Daugherty 24
PF - Garnett 36/Robinson 12
SF - Stojakovic 30/Prince 18
SG - Drexler 35/Hawkins 13
PG - Johnson 33/Cooper 15

Shots distribution:

Drexler 16-18
Johnson 14-16
Garnett 14-16
Stojakovic 11-13
Daugherty 10-12

So, that's about 70 total attempts for my stars. Other guys getting single-digit number of shot attempts, and mostly situational attempts within the offensive flow, no set plays or 1 on 1 isos for them. Hersey Hawkins is supposed to be the 6th highest shot taker, Michael Cooper 7th highest (Cooper basically limited just to fastbreak finishing and open threes, in terms of shot attempts).

KJ is going to be the primary ballhandler, Drexler secondary, Cooper the third ballhandler, Hawkins fourth, and KG will make some plays from mid/high post (but I generally don't want Garnett putting the ball on the floor if he's guarded by Rodman - he can if he's guarded by LMA, Chandler or Amar'e, though). Daugherty from low post (KG and Brad trying to find Peja, Coop or Hawk for open shots, especially).

[Dr Spaceman]

Sorry- I've been out of town this weekend and really don't have time to do this tonight. I'll get it up sometime tomorrow.

[thizznation]

This matchup should be billed as the Unstoppable Force meets the Immovable Object.

[Dr Spaceman]

Oooooookay. Got a cup of coffee, time to tackle this.

Starting Lineup
G: Steve Nash
G: Andre Iguodala
C: Amar'e Stoudemire
F: Dennis Rodman
F: James Worthy

First thing to note: Worthy replaces Hornacek in the starting lineup. I drafted this team with versatility in mind, and playing matchups is going to be super important for my team that lacks a true superstar perimeter scorer. Worthy is simply too athletic and skilled to be guarded by Peja, and I expect to see Peja's minutes cut, which will benefit my defense which I'll get to down the road. But for now, think about Worthy outgunning Peja on the break and taking him to the post in the half court. Worthy post-up was a huge staple for LAL post-88, with Kareem gone it became their primary source of isolation offense. Worthy can do just fine in this role, and even if I can't push the pace as much as I like Worthy's dependable half court floor game gives me a great dimension to my attack.

Further, as long as Worthy's guarded by Peja he's going to be my #1 option to set screens for Nash. Having a liability like this on the floor is death against an expert pick and roll attack, and similar to Houston I'm going to run 1-3 pick and rolls, giving me a roll man who has a buttery touch from midrange and the wherewithal to attack off the dribble, finish in the lane, and punish undersized defenders like Johnson on switches in the post. Playing Stoudemire off ball warps the floor around the baseline, and I truly hope for Q's sake Wallace doesn't entertain helping off him, because I can't think of a player more primed to shoot the gaps and hunt lobs against compromised defenses. Essentially Wallace is going to be in a pick-your-poison scenario: deny Nash the mid-range shot and live with a dump-off or lob behind him, or stay home on Stat and let Nash run free. I have absolutely no doubt that Nash is going to run circles around Peja and KJ, so it's a matter of what Q can do with his help scheme, and no player in NBA history is more effective at exploiting this than Nash.

I imagine Q will switch KG on Worthy and try to hide Peja on Rodman. Holy crap. Rodman is going to MURDER Peja on the offensive glass, and especially with Wallace and KG having really tough offensive assignments keeping them around the perimeter Rodman is going to have a field day. We're talking about the GOAT offensive rebounder and frankly this is unfair. Rodman just so blatantly overmatches Peja that I don't see Q being able to stick with him for long at all.

Another thing I like about this matchup: Q doesn't have anyone to punish my bigs offensively save Daugherty, and if that's a big part of his gameplan how have I not won? LaMarcus is going to be my first sub- and I won't hesitate to go to him as early as the 8 minute mark, and definitely before bench rotations normally come in, and since I imagine Q is going to go to Tayshaun as soon as possible, Aldridge will join him at the scorers' table if he's not on the floor already. One of George Karl's sets I really enjoy is the double high-screen (watch some Clippers games and you'll see the beauty of this play), to give you an idea, both 4 and 5 come to the top of the key and set screens on opposite sides of the ball-handler's man. If Nash goes to Aldridge's side, Stat slips the screen and books straight to the rim, while Aldridge finishes the hard screen and then sets up as a release valve at the top of the key. Nash can also decide to hit Stat's side, where he can use a traditional pick and roll setup while Aldridge has half of the court to work with for a post up. And with a player like Nash running this show, it gives me chills thinking about this happening, now with both of Q's best bigs occupied at the top of the arc, Iggy and Worthy are free to dart into the lane behind them and there's no one I trust more than Nash to make those tricky passes.

Nash is an underrated scorer, and when Q puts Daugherty out there to punish Stat I plan to counter by attacking him in pick and roll repeatedly. Nash is very gifted at simply using screens to force switches, and he can just run wild against the lumbering Daugherty especially with no true rim protector on the floor in these lineups. I look at Q's team and see some glaringly flawed players that are going to have a hard time staying on the floor, simply due to the fact that nash is a maniacal genius and a bully and won't hesitate to make them look foolish. Remember this is a dude who was routinely reaching on-court ORTG's of 120+, especially in the playoffs, and here we are giving him enough cartoonishly good weapons to make Ratchet and Clank shed a tear.

Wallace and Stat is a really interesting matchup. I love the fact that Ben is so horrendous offensively that I can simply put Stat there defensively and not worry too much. Rebounding is a problem, but I don't have to worry about Ben scoring in any serious way. That's the best thing I could ask for since I'm married to this smallball thing. I'm not worried about Daugherty since as I stated above he'll give back more on defense than he brings on offense. Wallace scares me as a pick and roll defender, as he's one of the only bigs in history truly capable of making BOTH Nash and Stoudemire's life difficult, but that's why I'm going to go to other options for my pick and roll attack and have Stat play off the ball quite a bit. As I mentioned, STAT will be brutally effective just hanging out around the rim if Wallace decides to help, and I'm going to adopt a lot of Pheonix's sets where they work Stat into his mid-range game. Like, I'm explicitly going to run him around curls and down screens, and make Wallace chase him as if he were a shooter. Stat is really effective in this role, and underrated part of his game, and he's so so so tough to defend when he has the dual threat of catch and shoot and simply taking a hard dribble to the rim. Wallace is great, but is he truly capable of stopping this action all the time? Further, if he's just going to be used to guard Stat 1 on 1, what good is his supernatural rim protection? As I've repeated ad nauseum, my team's strength is mismatches, and I don't think Q has the dogs to answer them all.

Clyde is the biggest problem Q poses to me. Hornacek becomes a liability, and his minutes are going to be limited to basically either the minutes Drexler is off court and coming in to back up Nash at the point. Iggy moves to the 2 and is going to play him straight up, as Drexler is not really a shot creator other than the post and Iggy can shut that down with his ball-denial. Iggy is one of the best man-to-man perimeter defenders in history, and Drexler's offensive game has warts, namely that he's not an effective ball-handler. This is a big enough flaw that I think as long as I keep one of Iggy and Christie on the floor to prevent his post-ups, I can limit his impact pretty effectively.

Look, everyone knows my defense isn't making it into the history books. But Q is Edelman's equal-opportunity offense, and his best offensive player makes his living by playmaking. I love Rodman on KG, because Rodman is a lunatic who can be overly aggressive and just be a dick, forcing KG to catch in weird places and generally making him uneasy. KG isn't a scary post player, and while I'm worried about Rodman chasing rebounds and giving KG open midrange looks that's really the extent of my worry since KG is a flawed scorer. Rodman is going to leave the game early for Aldridge, but he's still going to play big minutes because I can bring him in for Worthy at the 3. He's going to be on KG basically all game since I expct Garnett to play huge minutes since his backup is an afterthought. Aldridge is just fine on Garnett for the minutes Rodman sits, since as I mentioned KG really doesn't inspire much fear as a scorer. He's going to beat you with smart basketball, not by punishing you, and honestly my team can live with that.

KJ on Nash is just tough. Really tough. I can't afford to sit Nash for any length of time, and I don't have a ton of sound defensive players to effectively scheme him out of the game. But think about this for a second: KJ is sort of like Kyrie Irving in the sense that the best things he does involve attacking compromised defenses and playing as a #2 pure scorer. He was clearly most successful playing off of Barkley's gravity, and Q just doesn't have anyone of Barkley's gravity on the roster. KJ as the offensive focal point, while dangerous, doesn't make me quake in my boots and I don't think I'm going to sell out to counter this. I don't know, KJ isn't an A-list star, and if Q is going to play him like one I think I can deal with that.

Also, this is modern rules. As I mentioned, I'm going to ruthlessly punish Peja every second he's on the floor, and since he's Q's 4th option I imagine he's just not going to have much floor time. Q doesn't have shooters, plain and simple, once you look past Peja. I mean, Garnett is a good mid-range guy, but spacing is going to be very cramped, and to be frank his offense reminds me quite a lot of 2011 Miami Heat, with Drex as LeBron, KJ as Wade, and KG as Bosh, and two non-threats (and I mean, really NON-THREATS) in Tayshaun and Wallace. I think I've hinted enough and y'all know where I'm going, I'm going to throw the Dallas zone at Q to exploit his shortcomings. While I have poor defensive players on my team, all of them save Stoudemire are very smart, and would have no problem fitting into a zone-heavy scheme where they have plenty of help. This will allow me to play Hornacek more minutes, as he and Nash won't be quite so brutal when I can just swarm, and with Q's team I'm worried about them getting into the paint first second and third, as they simply can't beat me from outside. I'm going to throw a bunch of different looks at Q, and I'm not going to allow him to get comfortable against any one defensive scheme. This is my trump card, and if Worthy can keep Peja off the floor I legitimately think this can be Q's downfall.

Given the above, finding minutes for Chandler is going to be paramount. I think that given my offensive role for Stoudemire he can come in without a deadly drop off offensively. He's a monstrously effective finisher, and has made his living hunting lobs and rolling to the rim. He's always going to share the floor with either Stat/Worthy or Aldridge/Worthy so that I can limit the bleeding offensively and Q won't kill me by having both Wallace and Garnett patrolling the paint. I don't like Nash/Chandler pick and roll with Wallace defending, but it's still an effective play and Chandler is totally willing to mix it up off-ball and chase offensive rebounds when he's out there, again pnishing Wallace for helping. It just means I need multiple pick and roll threats on the floor with Chandler.

Oh, and obviously I'm going to run like hell. Drexler is a good chasedown artist, but he can't defend 1 on 3 and if Q is going to crash the offensive glass as I imagine he will, since that is his biggest front court advantage, I can really kill him in transition. This is where my team shines, and it's also where Q's team can be exploited. Q can have his guys fall back, but I think that's a losing proposition given my HCO is still going to be very effective and his isn't especially threatening without those athletes taking advantage of the boards. I'm not overly concerned with him slowing the game down, because that requires effective post-up players that Q doesn't have. Further, without the shooting and passing to punish me, I can afford to play fairly conservative and drop guys into the paint, hopefully leading to lots of long rebounds and turnovers from sloppy ball-handlers.

I think I hit everything I wanted to address, I know it's long but I hope people read every word before they vote because strategy is so important, and especially I think people don't like my team on paper, but with smart matchup exploitation and strategy I think I can really make this work. Let's hope for a good game.

Rotation:
Point guard: Nash 36-40/Hornacek the rest, Dragic will only play garbage time since this is an awful matchup
Wing: Iguodala 33-37/Worthy 33-37/Christie 20-24/Rodman playing some 3 next to Aldridge and Hornacek filling in where he can
Frontcourt: Stat 36-40/Rodman 25-30/Aldridge 20-25 or more, depending on how we play with Chandler on the floor/Chandler filling in the gaps, only playing in lineups where there are other scorers (ie. not with heavy doses of Rodman/Christie/Iggy)

Okay.

[Quotatious]

Spaceman said some really smart things, but I feel like he's looking at his team through rose-colored glasses, and he sees more weaknesses on my team than actually exist.

First of all, I think that my team is simply more talented. The only legitimate all-time great on Spaceman's team is Nash - other than that, all of his players are seriously flawed in one area or another.

So, let's go - Worthy isn't as much of a problem for my team as S makes it out to be - I'm gonna start the game with Peja guarding him, and Wallace/Garnett covering up for Stojakovic's mistakes, trying to deny Worthy at rim. If Big Game James starts to hurt me too much, I immediately take Peja out of the game and put Tayshaun on the floor, guarding Worthy. Prince is a very good defender with excellent length, and "wiry" strong. Plus, he's going to have great chemistry with Big Ben, as they were teammates for a few seasons. That certainly helps. Prince should be enough to keep Worthy from getting hot, but I can also put KG (or Cliff Robinson, in the few minutes when he's on the court) on Worthy, so I have a lot of options.

Second, Nash's (and Stoudemire's, so basically two of the top three scoring options of Spaceman's team) biggest strength - their pick & roll/ pick & pop efficiency, is going to be much more limited than usual, as I have two of the top 5 pick & roll defending bigs of all-time - Garnett and Wallace. Kevin Johnson might not be a good defender, but he's very athletic and at least Nash wouldn't do much harm 1 on 1 against him (at the same time, Johnson would own Nash if Steve had to guard him 1 on 1).

I'm not sure why S insists that I have no shooters other than Peja - Hersey Hawkins and Michael Cooper were both elite shooters at the time they played, especially 3-point shooters. Cooper even shot 45% for 3 on 3.1 attempts per game IN THE PLAYOFFS between 1986 and '88, including almost 49% on almost 4 attempts in 1987. These are some Kyle Korver-like percentages, especially by mid/late 80s standards. Besides, Cooper is a guy who can make Nash's life difficult when he's guarding him, because of the big size and athleticism advantage (but Coop was also a pretty smart defender).

I don't see how Spaceman can say that Prince is a non-factor offensively. He was averaging over 14 ppg and shot over 36% from beyond the arc, during the three-year stretch I selected. He's definitely not someone who should be left open. He's a perfectly adequate scorer for a role player. I'd be pretty happy if Prince was left wide open, though.

As far as my pick & roll defense is concerned, I'm going to avoid switching, so that I won't be left with KJ on Amare and similar mismatches, and try to keep everyone guarding the guy they're normally supposed to guard. With Garnett and Wallace anchoring the middle, I think that I can afford to do so.

Spaceman said that Garnett is a flawed scorer - well, he isn't exactly Shaq or Hakeem in this regard, but according to shutupandjam's numbers for post-up situations for Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and Dirk, KG compares pretty well to the other guys, even to Duncan, who is usually considered a superior post-up guy than him:

Spoiler:

2005:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense (includes pass outs): 1.022 PPP on 740 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.043 PPP on 555 poss
Pass outs: 1.084 PPP on 155 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 30 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 627 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.938 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.288 PPP on 125 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.406 PPP on 32 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.887 PPP on 222 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.915 PPP on 177 poss
Pass outs: 1.00 PPP on 33 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.167 PPP on 12 poss


Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.966 PPP on 205 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.969 PPP on 161 poss
Pass outs: 1.188 PPP on 32 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 12 poss


2006:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.034 PPP on 730 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.049 PPP on 574 poss
Pass outs: 1.08 PPP on 138 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.222 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.952 PPP on 834 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.903 PPP on 636 poss
Pass outs: 1.269 PPP on 171 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.111 PPP on 27 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.012 PPP on 328 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.048 PPP on 272 poss
Pass outs: 1.000 PPP on 47 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 261 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.941 PPP on 205 poss
Pass outs: 1.260 PPP on 50 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 6 poss

2007:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.080 PPP on 511 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.068 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.351 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.992 PPP on 864 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 669 poss
Pass outs: 0.988 PPP on 164 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.065 PPP on 31 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.033 PPP on 300 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 224 poss
Pass outs: 1.219 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.039 PPP on 229 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.055 PPP on 183 poss
Pass outs: 1.216 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss


2008:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.060 PPP on 580 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.038 PPP on 472 poss
Pass outs: 1.263 PPP on 99 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.957 PPP on 678 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 600 poss
Pass outs: 1.159 PPP on 63 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.467 PPP on 15 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.021 PPP on 389 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.045 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.071 PPP on 70 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 11 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.102 PPP on 266 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.042 PPP on 212 poss
Pass outs: 1.412 PPP on 51 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 3 poss


2009:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.993 PPP on 290 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 254 poss
Pass outs: 1.484 PPP on 31 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 5 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.010 PPP on 675 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.982 PPP on 563 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.563 PPP on 16 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.998 PPP on 549 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.000 PPP on 454 poss
Pass outs: 1.173 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.035 PPP on 340 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.039 PPP on 285 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 48 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.286 PPP on 7 poss

2010:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.912 PPP on 363 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.890 PPP on 291 poss
Pass outs: 1.094 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 8 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 1.086 PPP on 725 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.070 PPP on 557 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.061 PPP on 603 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.081 PPP on 471 poss
Pass outs: 1.139 PPP on 108 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 24 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.058 PPP on 590 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.002 PPP on 431 poss
Pass outs: 1.309 PPP on 139 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.500 PPP on 20 poss

2011:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 1.011 PPP on 374 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.035 PPP on 288 poss
Pass outs: 1.059 PPP on 68 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.444 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.977 PPP on 432 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 344 poss
Pass outs: 1.227 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.308 PPP on 13 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.154 PPP on 494 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.170 PPP on 389 poss
Pass outs: 1.178 PPP on 90 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.600 PPP on 15 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.022 PPP on 409 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.007 PPP on 300 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.615 PPP on 13 poss

2012:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.987 PPP on 371 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.990 PPP on 286 poss
Pass outs: 1.203 PPP on 69 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 16 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.855 PPP on 358 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.837 PPP on 294 poss
Pass outs: 1.091 PPP on 55 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 0.991 PPP on 446 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 340 poss
Pass outs: 1.282 PPP on 78 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.643 PPP on 28 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 0.914 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.935 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.077 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 32 poss


2013:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.978 PPP on 416 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.946 PPP on 313 poss
Pass outs: 1.165 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.955 PPP on 423 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.966 PPP on 328 poss
Pass outs: 1.039 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.389 PPP on 18 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.069 PPP on 304 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.051 PPP on 215 poss
Pass outs: 1.221 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.081 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.123 PPP on 243 poss
Pass outs: 1.140 PPP on 150 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.579 PPP on 38 poss


2014:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.806 PPP on 93 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.861 PPP on 72 poss
Pass outs: 0.650 PPP on 20 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 1 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.917 PPP on 435 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 342 poss
Pass outs: 1.017 PPP on 58 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.400 PPP on 35 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.079 PPP on 682 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.116 PPP on 490 poss
Pass outs: 1.135 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.477 PPP on 44 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.158 PPP on 38 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.870 PPP on 23 poss
Pass outs: 1.846 PPP on 13 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 2 poss

So, I think that Garnett is actually pretty good as the primary post-up threat - he's a very good scorer but that's not even his main role - he can pass/make plays from the post even better than he can score (by the way, the same is true about Clyde Drexler).

Drexler being guarded by Iguodala/Christie won't be easy for him, but Clyde's baseline spin from the post was pretty much unstoppable, considering how athletic he was, and Clyde is okay as the secondary ballhandler. He's mediocre as the primary ballhandler, but pretty good in a more limited role in this regard.

Drexler's jumper was very streaky - he was capable of getting really hot at times. For example look at the first quarter of the 1995 WCF game 1 between Houston and San Antonio - Drexler was 6/6 from the field, scoring in a variety of ways, and that's a 33-year old version of Glide, when he had already lost some of his athleticism, compared to '90-'92.

Spaceman plans on punishing Daugherty with Nash/Amare pick & rolls, but as I've said before, I want one of KG to stay on the court whenever Brad is in the game, trying to prevent Spaceman's pick & rolls from working as well as he intended.

Yes, Spaceman is right that KJ's calling card was his playmaking, but he an equally effective scorer. We are talking about a guy who averaged almost 22 ppg on almost 60% TS. He was perfectly capable of taking over games with his scoring, especially considering that you can't really ask for a more favorable matchup than Nash guarding him. I guess we're using current rules, so KJ becomes even more of a threat in 1 on 1 situations, with no handchecking allowed.

Spaceman thinks that KJ was best suited as a #2 guy on offense, with someone like Barkley being the #1, but I think he's missing the point here, because KJ wasn't really the same player (at least not on a consistent basis) when he was playing with Barkley. He had to deal with injuries. I have '89'-91 version of him, at his athletic peak (and overall peak, too). That version of KJ was one of the best offensive players in the league, and someone who led a top 3 offense (and 55 win, 6-7 SRS teams) every year, playing with Tom Chambers as the co-star, Tom Chambers wasn't exactly Charles Barkley, but the Suns were still very successful with him.

Adelman's equal opportunities offense is perfectly suited to my personnel, considering that I don't really have a classic volume scorer, and I have a lot of great (and willing) passers. Even Drexler was averaging just 23.3 ppg between '90 and '92. Garnett was averaging 23.1. Kevin Johnson was averaging 21.7. These three guys are going to anchor my offense, and I think that collectively, they are clearly good enough to make my team successful. Especially with Brad Daugherty providing the additional high-efficiency scoring punch off the bench (and, even more importantly, an excellent post up option, both as a scorer and passer). What's funny is that Spaceman intended to use the 2011 Heat example to criticize my team, while in reality, it's really more of a compliment. I mean, the 2011 Heat had the third best offense in the league, and they looked pretty good until the finals (if LeBron played up to his standards, they probably would've won it all).

One thing that is underrated about my team is that I can afford to crash the offensive board (not only my bigs, but even Drexler was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player), and still be able to slow down Spaceman's fastbreak, because KJ, Drexler and Garnett are some of the best athletes of all-time at their respective positions. Michael Cooper, as well.

Spaceman is IMO overly optimistic if he really believes that his half-court offense would be highly effective. Certainly not with Wallace and Garnett protecting the paint. There would be basically no easy points for his team in the paint, and very few offensive rebounds, so he really has to count on his transition offense to get the job done. He's not winning the battle "in the trenches" with my team.

There's something else that I really love - nobody on Spaceman's team except Tyson Chandler is a worthwhile rim protector, and I have two fantastic finishers on my team - KJ and Drexler. They could really wreak havoc inside.

One more thing - with Hornacek's minutes being limited, Spaceman's team's shooting doesn't scare me one bit. Iggy is a mediocre 3-pt shooter (I wouldn't necessarily leave him wide open, but he's not someone I'm particularly concerned with. Worthy doesn't really have 3-pt range, at all. Only Nash is a real threat from beyond the arc in such situations.

I know it's long but I hope people read every word before they vote because strategy is so important, and especially I think people don't like my team on paper, but with smart matchup exploitation and strategy I think I can really make this work.

Well, for what it's worth, I read everything you've written, and I'm really impressed with the effort you put it into that. It's great, it makes it really enjoyable to be a part of this game.

Let's hope for a good game.

Indeed.

[trex_8063]

.

btw--Which versions/years of Rodman do you have here? His role or player-type was quite different before or after 1992.

Also, when is the floor open for discussion and/or voting? Do we wait until after both have had a chance for one rebuttal?

[Owly]

.

btw--Which versions/years of Rodman do you have here? His role or player-type was quite different before or after 1992.

Also, when is the floor open for discussion and/or voting? Do we wait until after both have had a chance for one rebuttal?

1990-1992. It's in the spoiler in post 2.

[Dr Spaceman]

Just a couple more things I want to hit on, I think my OP was pretty comprehensive:

1. Worthy is a smart passer as well, and I want to adopt the Clippers pick and roll-> lob play as well, and I can do it with 1-3 or 1-2 or even 1-4 with Worthy, Iguodala, and Aldridge/Rodman. Hell, Nash/Iguodala PNR is something I'm going to break out for this game, and I think it can be pretty effective.
2. KG and Wallace are great, but again I'll emphasize: when they are being pulled out from the paint by my bigs, how effective will they be? And if they have to exert such energy on defense, how effective will they be on offense?
3. stopping the SSOL fast break was a whole-team effort. If Q plans to crash the glass, I simply have too many good options on the break for him to stop. This will murder him, plain and simple.
4. When has a Nash-led half court offense not been successful? Of all his points, this one is the least justifiable, as Nash/Stat pick and roll was enough to kill anyone they faced; hell, against San Antonio in 2007 Nash averaged 21/13 on .600 TS% to go along with Stat's 26/10 on .583 TS%. Is Q's defense going to pose that big an issue for them, especially when this team is far more talented than the 2007 Suns?
5. No matter how good Q's individual defenders are, the ball is going to MOVE. Especially for a team that is going to do a ton of rotating/helping since he doesn't plan to switch, I really think I can make him pay with ball movement, especially since everyone is a willing passers and I have some expert off-ball movers.

I think we can open the floor to voting.

[JeepCSC]

Since both write-ups have been done, shall we give this a week to debate, otherwise next Friday at noon?

[Quotatious]

Since both write-ups have been done, shall we give this a week to debate, otherwise next Friday at noon?

Yeah, it seems like both me and Spaceman are ready.

I have this strange feeling that this is gonna be one of just two matchups (the other being Jaivl vs thizznation) that has a chance to be completed...Draft was really fun, but it seems like most people have lost interest in it once the real game has started...

[Owly]

Since both write-ups have been done, shall we give this a week to debate, otherwise next Friday at noon?

Yeah, it seems like both me and Spaceman are ready.

I have this strange feeling that this is gonna be one of just two matchups (the other being Jaivl vs thizznation) that has a chance to be completed...Draft was really fun, but it seems like most people have lost interest in it once the real game has started...

Well in this type of game to a lot of people, the draft is "the real game", and the writeups are a time drain to type, to read and then with the expectation that no one will read them anyhow.

Anyways where I am in this matchup....

On paper the more talented/productive team is Q's. The first 5 is strong, Daugherty is great, Hawkins very solid (the other bench players seem like they're there to fit the concept, give spacing/length/D, which kind of works though personally I'd have prefered scraficing a little bit of spacing - i.e. the 3-ball, and getting more productive who are still very strong defenders and passers, - the likes of Pressey, Lever and Millsap). Anyhow a really strong team especially the starting 5.

Dr S.'s team on paper seems to lack something. The top 3 picks being primarily one way players (Nash, Rodman, Stoudemire) doesn't really help. By the boxscore it's just a less productive team.

Writeups
As Q has said Dr S seems to write some smart things and has very tight grip on how he wants his team to play.

Still I think he's overselling on a couple of issues. Q has already raised that KJ though not a 30% usage type guy was leading some strong Phoenix offenses before Barkley. He should have no trouble getting past Nash and when Chandler isn't in there's no rim protector, the only concern is if Wallace can finish if he gets the dish.

The other thing that stood out to me was the notion that Daugherty would more than give back what he provides on O. Daugherty could destroy a defensive non-entity like STAT (and pick apart defenses with his passing - one reason I suspected I wouldn't get him when decided to pass on him in the 8th round, I saw Q with Adelman in place, no second unit center, no strong offensive center and thought "he's taking Daugherty" - and plays a mean pick and roll). He was a competent, solid defensive defender (just not a shot blocker, helper, though to a small extent that was because "Hot Rod" and Nance played that role) and whilst Amar'e is a bad matchup on that end, so he gives quite a bit back I really don't like Amar'e guarding him. It might have been moot though since Q said he'd try to match Ben with Stoudemire and Brad with Chandler, but if Chandler's just picking up the scraps of the big man minutes then Daugherty versus a poor defender becomes an issue. Amar'e was an amazing offensive player and him with Nash is a proven success story, I just feel he was a reach where he was picked in this and his flaws are more exposed against these elite teams.

I'm not sure I buy into Worthy as a devastating force and a go to guy. He always seemed smooth and looked like he had the skills. Still for the span selected he had a 22.5 usage%, and shot a strong, but not breathtaking .577 ts% doing so in a weak conference against weak defensive forwards (80s SFs for the most part didn't tend to specialise in D, Bill Simmons even suggested "Bird delighted in torching Chambers, Alex English, Kelly Tripucka and Kiki Vandeweghe. If he had played for a West Coast team in the mid-’80s, you could have added 3 PPG to Bird’s averages from those four guys alone". That's hyperbole and there were defensive minded exceptions in that era like Pressey and McCray, still ...) whilst playing with Magic (admittedly now he's playing with Nash). Worthy at the three also means not having, say, Rodman attacking the one weak spot in Qs otherwise impenetrable rebounding first unit frontline. My initial thought was implications that Peja was a defensive liability may have been overstated, but Q acknowledged first that it was a concern so maybe Peja is worse than I recalled on D and/or gets his confidence damaged by swift yankings), if so Prince whilst a passable offensive player does become a significant downgrade.

On the flip side Q probably oversold his "I have 3-shooters" angle, given a lot of those mentioned won't be on the court so much (rightly so imo; and fwiw Cooper is solid but those playoffs look fairly flukey). Still I don't think I see spacing as a major problem, KJ was a very good shooter up to about 19 feet, Drexler will often be operating from the post, Garnett has good range for a PF and critically, as covered before, I'm not sure I'm convinced about Peja being bullied off the court. Then too as Q notes (whilst probably over casually dismissing Iggy and perhaps ignoring Doug Christie) with Hornacek yanked from the rotation, the three point threat on the other side is somewhat diminished.

George Karl + Dennis Rodman (albeit young Dennis Rodman) might be a tad combustible too.

That's my initial reactions. The numbers seem to tilt for Q too. Tactically I'd be happy if Q wasn't going through because IIRC you guys are in my half of the draft and I "fear" Q more (at least on paper, and particularly on first 5s more than overall and I haven't looked at matchups).

Okay well I'll withhold any voting for now, because I should hear discussions, see if I'm wrong on anything, missing something massive (maybe look closer for flaws on Qs side and re-read Dr S' arguments), but as of right now I'm clearly leaning a win for Q's team.

[trex_8063]

Since both write-ups have been done, shall we give this a week to debate, otherwise next Friday at noon?

Yeah, it seems like both me and Spaceman are ready.

I have this strange feeling that this is gonna be one of just two matchups (the other being Jaivl vs thizznation) that has a chance to be completed...Draft was really fun, but it seems like most people have lost interest in it once the real game has started...

I somewhat feel we should still set a time-line and just have a vote and play the tournament out. We do have write-ups from the original thread which can be copied and pasted (I think Owly already did that for everyone, actually). If the team authors deem to show up and plug their team a little further, fine; but otherwise we just vote based on the information given.

btw--Is this match-up officially open for broad debate from anyone now? EDIT: And maybe at this point we should just open all of them for general debate, since as you said several people appear to be AWOL????

[Dr Spaceman]

btw--Is this match-up officially open for broad debate from anyone now?

Yes.

EDIT: And maybe at this point we should just open all of them for general debate, since as you said several people appear to be AWOL????

Yes.

The weird thing is, I've seen giordunk around the forum a little bit. He just sort of packed up and left this project.

[trex_8063]

OK, I guess I'll start the vote off.

tbh I thought Dr. Spaceman's team was underrated with a #14 seed. penbeast is known to favor defense over offense, so perhaps that played into his decision. Despite the seeding, this one is nonetheless a somewhat compelling offense vs. defense match-up.


That said, I did think Dr. Spaceman's initial arguments had a little too much "slant" to them; Quot has already addressed most of it, and here's where I agree with his rebuttal:

*Quot's team is not short of shooters. Aside from Peja (who's on the All-Time shortlist of great shooters), Hawkins in the years specified was 39.8% on 3.3 3PA/g. Michael Cooper was a decent 36.5% on 2.5 3PA/g in the years specified. And given it's modern rules I assume for older players they either grew up in this era or had some "magic time-machine" opportunity to train for 1-2 years (without aging) for the modern game.....in which case these guys may have been able to improve on those numbers (indeed: Hersey Hawkins DID improve on that later in his career). Tayshaun is >36% from behind the arc, too.

**While Spaceman has a scary pick n' roll line-up with Nash/STAT/LMA, when Quot has the option of putting Michael Cooper on Nash, and then has Garnett (imo, the GOAT pick n' roll defender) and Ben Wallace (excellent at it in his own right), I feel as though he's got that situation as neutralized as is reasonably possible. Note on this topic that I just investigated:
Stoudemire during his prime while teamed with Nash ('05-'10):
23.2 ppg on 62.8% ts, with 2.5 topg
When facing Garnett in the same years:
20.8 ppg on 61.5% ts, with 2.7 topg

***I'm not sure if Spaceman's opportunities in transition will be quite as bountiful as he's implying, even if Quot does intend to crash the offensive glass. While a strategy of crashing the offensive glass will make some transition opportunities on the defensive rebound, it will also take a few away when OReb with a put-back is achieved; particularly if you have a rebounding advantage.....which I think Quot has. Despite the presence of Rodman (who in the '90-'92 window is not the insane 18+ rpg player), Wallace/Garnett/Daugherty slightly trumps Rodman/Stoudemire/Chandler in that respect, especially because Spaceman's 2nd-best rebounder (Chandler) is going to be seeing somewhat limited minutes while Quot's WORST rebounder of those three (Daugherty) will be the guy seeing limited minutes. Also, Drexler managed a very nice offensive rebound rate while still being a decent transition defender (he was just that caliber of athlete). And KG and Big Ben are about as mobile a set of bigs as you could EVER hope for (btw, Quot---I disagree with you on one point: I think peak KG is fast enough to keep up with James Worthy on the break).

I have to say I'm also curious to see what an elite penetrating guard like KJ could do in an era that has disallowed hand-checking (and especially with Steve Nash guarding him, and little in the way of rim-protectors to back Nash up).


As you may ascertain from my comments, I simply must go with Team Quotatious in this match-up. I think it would be a decent series, but his team has the tools in place to somewhat mitigate Spaceman's elite offense, he's got the better rebounding, and I think KJ could be more effective offensively against this line-up (and with modern rules) than Spaceman believes.

EDIT: This is somewhat bad luck for Spaceman, as far as I'm concerned. There were several squads against which I'd have picked his team as the victor........Quotatious' simply wasn't one of them.

[JeepCSC]

Hmm. While I thought both centers were reaches when gotten, they were intriguing. Particularly Stoudemire. Who wouldn't want to tinker with those Suns squads to make a more balanced squad. And incidentally Rodman was an 18+ rebounder at least one of those years (1992). Honestly if the question is whether Q can stop an oncoming train, I think the answer is no. Garnett can not cover Nash with those weapons, not with the lineup either will be rolling out.

Unfortunately for Spaceman, the game can't be won on offense alone. And while I think a team can disrupt any offense that plays Ben for half the game, someone is going off in the backcourt and I don't see how Spaceman can even begin to slow it down. KJ seems the prime candidate to explode, and even though I can't say I love him and Drexler both being drive-and-kick out playmakers, it seems like it would be fairly effective here.

I'm actually enjoying the writeups greatly. I'll ponder them as I read (hopefully) some others. I want to say that Spaceman's offense seems to have a higher ceiling than any other side of the ball for either team. Whether that is enough to stop Q's more balanced approach is the million dollar question. Q has the talent in the starting 5, I'm just trying to envision how it all comes together.

[trex_8063]

Hmm. While I thought both centers were reaches when gotten, they were intriguing.
(snip)
Particularly Stoudemire. And incidentally Rodman was an 18+ rebounder at least one of those years (1992).

If the bolded was specifically responding to comments I made, yes, I was aware of that. But on a point I sought clarity of previously: we are to assume an average amalgamation of the three years for each player: so Rodman is still an elite 13.6 rpg, but no longer the hyper-elite 18+ rpg.
I don't criticize the choice, mind you. The 18+ rpg version of Rodman was a lesser defender than the circa 1990 version (kind of have to neglect defense to a small degree to crash the glass to that extent). Picking the '90-'92 window for Rodman gives Spaceman a nice balance of boards and defense.

Honestly if the question is whether Q can stop an oncoming train, I think the answer is no.

I didn't and wouldn't say Q (or anyone) can "stop" this offense. I said that he's "got the situation as neutralized as is reasonably possible", and that his team "has the tools in place to somewhat mitigate Spaceman's elite offense."

Who wouldn't want to tinker with those Suns squads to make a more balanced squad. -----
----Garnett can not cover Nash with those weapons, not with the lineup either will be rolling out.

Bear in mind, Garnett is not alone here. I noted the effect Garnett appeared to have on the prime Stoudemire/Nash A-train......and he largely did that without a lot of help (Rondo guarding Nash the final three years of that period, but otherwise....).

But here he has Ben Wallace by his side (when did he ever have a rim-protector or a pnr defending big even remotely close to Big Ben's caliber playing alongside him?). His bench backcourt, too (Cooper and Hawkins).....pretty impressive defensively.

Also, Spaceman will likely only occasionally have a line-up like Nash/Stoudemire/Aldridge/Worthy/Hornacek in the game; that's sort of offensive overkill. He'll want to bolster his defense (balance things out, as you said) most of the time. Thus, often it may be something like Nash/Stoudemire/Rodman/Worthy/Iggy or Christie (or maybe Iggy AND Christie, with Worthy out). Now are those latter line-ups really better offensively than Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Diaw/Bell? Not really, imo.

[JeepCSC]

This amalgamation of stats will take some getting used to. Clearly Rodman's lower minutes early on hurt him. His advanced stats are much better than what his rebounds per games would suggest.

[trex_8063]

fwiw, his minutes are not particularly reduced overall for that 3-year span: 34.2 mpg. But his per 100 poss rebounding number do lean somewhat toward hyper-elite, I guess: 20.6 (still significantly less than he averaged from '92 to '98, though, is what I'm saying).