All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread

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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#41 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:58 pm

Quotatious wrote:Kawhi just won DPOY. First perimeter player who won this award since Artest in 2004, and only the third since Rodman in '91 (Payton won in '96).

I think it's well deserved, he's clearly something special on defense, although I'm always wary of giving it to a perimeter player, because interior defenders usually have more impact, due to the nature of the game. With Kawhi, I'm glad they made an exception, though.

What do you think, guys?

I agree w/ it, I see the debate between him and Green, and its really close either way, but with how great that Spurs team's defense turned his return he deserved it. I still don't get all the votes for DJ, but I suppose it was to be expected and he didn't take the award or even come in 2nd. I like the choice, but would have had someone else in 3rd (Gobert/Duncan most likely).
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Post#42 » by SactoKingsFan » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:05 pm

I think it should have gone to Draymond since he was the most valuable defender on best defensive team in the league and played over 20% more minutes than Kawhi. Jordan getting enough votes to finish 3rd is ridiculous.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#43 » by Quotatious » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:07 pm

bondom34 wrote: agree w/ it, I see the debate between him and Green, and its really close either way, but with how great that Spurs team's defense turned his return he deserved it. I still don't get all the votes for DJ, but I suppose it was to be expected and he didn't take the award or even come in 2nd. I like the choice, but would have had someone else in 3rd (Gobert/Duncan most likely).

Yeah, Green vs Leonard is very close. Can't go wrong with either.

Damn, I wish that Duncan won it...I don't think he's the most deserving, so it might not be the best choice, but it's really hard to believe that he's never won it. Dude is one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, incredibly consistent on D basically every year (I think his defense has been even more consistent than his offense). Would be a pretty nice lifetime achievement.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#44 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:07 pm

Quotatious wrote:Kawhi just won DPOY. First perimeter player who won this award since Artest in 2004, and only the third since Rodman in '91 (Payton won in '96).

I think it's well deserved, he's clearly something special on defense, although I'm always wary of giving it to a perimeter player, because interior defenders usually have more impact, due to the nature of the game. With Kawhi, I'm glad they made an exception, though.

What do you think, guys?


I think on a game to game basis, kawhi was definitely deserving. It’s playing in only 64 games that makes me somewhat question it. That said, I don’t know if i’d necessarily vote for draymond over him. I was a fan of draymond before he blew up this year, but I can’t help but feel like he’s getting a touch overrated that this point. Maybe overrated is too strong of a word, but i guess too "hyped" on 1 season of play. Happy for him that he's going to get paid, though.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#45 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:17 pm

Quotatious wrote:
bondom34 wrote: agree w/ it, I see the debate between him and Green, and its really close either way, but with how great that Spurs team's defense turned his return he deserved it. I still don't get all the votes for DJ, but I suppose it was to be expected and he didn't take the award or even come in 2nd. I like the choice, but would have had someone else in 3rd (Gobert/Duncan most likely).

Yeah, Green vs Leonard is very close. Can't go wrong with either.

Damn, I wish that Duncan won it...I don't think he's the most deserving, so it might not be the best choice, but it's really hard to believe that he's never won it. Dude is one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, incredibly consistent on D basically every year (I think his defense has been even more consistent than his offense). Would be a pretty nice lifetime achievement.

Agree, and his numbers are great plus/minus wise, but most of his minutes were w/ Leonard so I'm thinking that has something to do w/ it.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#46 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:51 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about Leonard winning. I think he's definitely a DPOY caliber talent and played at that level this year, but I wonder how much Green/Bogut stealing votes from one another impacted this. Would need to see the full voting to get an idea. Somebody mentioned that DJ came in third if I skimmed correctly? That's a travesty, but it is what it is.

From a narrative perspective, it is pretty cool to me that Leonard is getting this media support. I definitely think he should be recognized for his play as a wing, even if he's not a volume scorer (though he has improved as a shot creator for sure).

As we say every year though, it is a shame Duncan doesn't have one of these awards (though Green/Leonard/Bogut probably were more deserving this year). My only theory is perhaps the fact that he has hardware in the form of MVPs/Finals MVPs has eliminated any urgency from the media vote, since they feel he's already been aptly recognized (right or wrong). Who knows.

Anyway though, congrats KL! Deserving of the award for sure IMO (though I weigh late-season form more than total minutes/possessions played than most).
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#47 » by penbeast0 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:59 pm

Not surprising that DeAndre Jordan came in third, he has the shotblocking numbers plus a lot of voters think of defensive rebounding as defense as well. Just be glad there are enough voters that think your way to make the top 2 both players you approve of. lol
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#48 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:01 pm

fpliii wrote: I think he's definitely a DPOY caliber talent and played at that level this year, but I wonder how much Green/Bogut stealing votes from one another impacted this. Would need to see the full voting to get an idea. Somebody mentioned that DJ came in third if I skimmed correctly? That's a travesty, but it is what it is.



Spoiler:
PLAYER TEAM 1st Place (5 Pts) 2nd Place (3 Pts) 3rd Place (1 pt) Total Points

Kawhi Leonard San Antonio 37 41 25 333

Draymond Green Golden State 45 25 17 317

DeAndre Jordan L.A. Clippers 32 25 26 261

Anthony Davis New Orleans 11 15 7 107

Rudy Gobert Utah 2 4 11 33

Andrew Bogut Golden State 0 6 13 31

Tony Allen Memphis 1 4 12 29

Tim Duncan San Antonio 1 1 4 12

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist Charlotte 0 2 3 9

Jimmy Butler Chicago 0 2 1 7

Marc Gasol Memphis 0 2 1 7

Joakim Noah Chicago 0 1 1 4

LeBron James Cleveland 0 0 3 3

Trevor Ariza Houston 0 1 0 3

Patrick Beverley Houston 0 0 1 1

DeMarre Carroll Atlanta 0 0 1 1

Nerlens Noel Philadelphia 0 0 1 1

Chris Paul L.A. Clippers 0 0 1 1

Hassan Whiteside Miami 0 0 1 1


From: http://www.nba.com/spurs/spurs-kawhi-leonard-wins-2014-15-kia-nba-defensive-player-year-award
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#49 » by penbeast0 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:05 pm

I can't remember a year where there were this many terrific candidates for MIP and COY other than "the usual suspects." It's been a great year of basketball.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#50 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:07 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Not surprising that DeAndre Jordan came in third, he has the shotblocking numbers plus a lot of voters think of defensive rebounding as defense as well. Just be glad there are enough voters that think your way to make the top 2 both players you approve of. lol

lol true. I do think defensive rebounding is important though. The defensive possession is not complete until a rebound is secured. I don't like the idea though that someone would just make a decision based on that alone.

I'm not going to nitpick about DPOY too much in general (though I guess I kind of did above). Celebrating defense is always a good thing.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#51 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:11 pm

Jordan is such a strange one. From what I can tell, a lot of his blocks come in 1v1 situations. Which is fine and valuable, but it shouldn't give anyone the idea that he's rotating around and deterring shots in the paint. When he does get blocks on help, it's usually of the "he came out of nowhere!" variety, and perhaps this is a stylistic preference, but I'd much much much rather him position himself to deter those shots in the first place. I think the problem people have is they look at the block numbers and think that there are countless additional shots he's altering on top of that, which is true of the great defensive players but isn't actually true in Jordan's case.

Further, if you've watched any of the Spurs series you'd see LAC having Jordan jump out in front of screens, essentially doubling/trapping the ball handler. On the one hand, he's a really gifted athlete with a crazy reach so it's not unreasonable to see this wrinkle come out every now and again just to apply some pressure, but the Clips do it every damn time. Given that Paul is probably the best on-ball defender among point guards, what this tells me is that the Clippers don't think highly of his ability to ICE, which is what most smart defensive bigs do. The Clippers also don't really ever switch, which kind of speaks volumes as to how much they trust their roster in general, and this includes Jordan.

Look, the Clippers were murdered last night inside simply because they were having Jordan jump out to the three point line and leaving Duncan alone in the paint. Duncan scored a million points just on layups and little flip[ shots over a rotating wing from the corner. This kept happening, and yet the Clips still kept Jordan pressing. Why is this? To me, the Clippers simply don't trust DJ.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#52 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:55 pm

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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#53 » by acrossthecourt » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:56 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I don't think the media has elected the rightful DPOY in a while, but them getting DeAndre Jordan would be beyond silly.

To the media's credit, the last few DPOYs haven't been guys who put up the best boxscore stats. I do think defensive intangibles are recognized. We may always have a scare every year that guys like Serge Ibaka and DeAndre Jordan may win, but something like that hasn't happened since Marcus Camby.


My general gut feeling is that Draymond Green will be the favorite to get the award.

When was the last time, and who would you have voted for the past four or five seasons?
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#54 » by Quotatious » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:04 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:DPOY tally:

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/23/kawh ... ef:nbahpts

Individual voting breakdown:

http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-15.pdf

Zach Lowe was one of the few people who didn't have DeAndre in the top 3. Smart man. :D
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#55 » by ThaRegul8r » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:27 pm

Quotatious wrote:Damn, I wish that Duncan won it...I don't think he's the most deserving, so it might not be the best choice, but it's really hard to believe that he's never won it. Dude is one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, incredibly consistent on D basically every year (I think his defense has been even more consistent than his offense). Would be a pretty nice lifetime achievement.


Duncan's my favorite active player, but—as I am on record as saying in the past in the case of other players—I am opposed to lifetime achievement awards. Wanting an exception to be made for a player just because he's my favorite would make me nothing more than a hypocrite and a fanboy. A player either deserves an award on the basis of his play in the given season or he does not. What a player did or didn't win in any other season is irrelevant as to whether he should win it in the current season. That remains true regardless of who the player is or whether or not I like him. If a player isn't the most deserving on the basis of his play, then he shouldn't win it.

As for Duncan specifically, he's one of the greatest defenders in NBA history independent of awards. Russell's been widely recognized as the GOAT defensive player and has been the standard that bigs from Thurmond to Anthony Davis have been compared to, yet he has zero awards and only a lone First Team All-Defense selection to his name.
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Post#56 » by SactoKingsFan » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:35 pm

I thought Jordan finishing 3rd was bad, but Draymond being left off so many DPOY ballots (42) is egregious.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#57 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:38 am

acrossthecourt wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I don't think the media has elected the rightful DPOY in a while, but them getting DeAndre Jordan would be beyond silly.

To the media's credit, the last few DPOYs haven't been guys who put up the best boxscore stats. I do think defensive intangibles are recognized. We may always have a scare every year that guys like Serge Ibaka and DeAndre Jordan may win, but something like that hasn't happened since Marcus Camby.


My general gut feeling is that Draymond Green will be the favorite to get the award.

When was the last time, and who would you have voted for the past four or five seasons?


2014: Joakim Noah won - I thought Paul George should have won.

2013: Marc Gasol won - Was close between George & Hibbert. I thought Gasol was a solid pick though.

2012: Tyson Chandler won - I thought Dwight Howard should have won.


For 2015, I had Bogut as the winner of the award, but Kawhi was probably a very close 2nd. I could be convinced he deserved it (missing games and a slow start is really the only thing holding him back).
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#58 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:54 am

On DPOY voting:

I'm not bother by Kawhi winning.

I am bothered by Green losing despite having the most 1st place votes. Not because I think that should guarantee you the award, but to me Green had an unimpeachable year in a way Kawhi didn't because of Kawhi's injuries. There were undoubtedly people who said "I think Kawhi is amazing, but he missed too much time so he missed my Top 3", and that's okay.

By contrast, Green missing that ballot means that the people in question just don't believe in Green's defense all that much, and as such the population of voters has between this and Deandre's close 3rd finish basically announced which of the voters are serious, and which are not.

I think it would be interesting when we're done with our voting to do an analysis and see what fraction of the official award voters are making choices that are simply indefensible to us. I worry a little it will end up as a witch hunt, but I tend to think that we won't have any horrible impact on the people who come up as clueless, and it would certainly be enlightening.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#59 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:54 pm

I think you could make an argument that Draymond Green isn't a top 3 defender. I think the combination of Bogut/Duncan/Leonard is enough to knock him out.

I do agree that in conjunction with DeAndre Jordan getting so many votes, that it is a pretty scary thought process that these reporters go through. Most of these guys really do not know a lot about sports, I talk to many of them all the time and they are clueless about a lot of players.
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Re: All-Season Other Awards Discussion thread 

Post#60 » by Quotatious » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:39 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:Duncan's my favorite active player, but—as I am on record as saying in the past in the case of other players—I am opposed to lifetime achievement awards. Wanting an exception to be made for a player just because he's my favorite would make me nothing more than a hypocrite and a fanboy. A player either deserves an award on the basis of his play in the given season or he does not. What a player did or didn't win in any other season is irrelevant as to whether he should win it in the current season. That remains true regardless of who the player is or whether or not I like him. If a player isn't the most deserving on the basis of his play, then he shouldn't win it.

As for Duncan specifically, he's one of the greatest defenders in NBA history independent of awards. Russell's been widely recognized as the GOAT defensive player and has been the standard that bigs from Thurmond to Anthony Davis have been compared to, yet he has zero awards and only a lone First Team All-Defense selection to his name.

I agree, I am also opposed to lifetime achievement awards, but my post shouldn't be taken that seriously. It was basically just a little rant about the fact that Duncan has never won the DPOY, and how it is hard to believe. It's just one of those baffling occurences - Shaq winning just one MVP would be another.

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