Has Doc's GM incompetence done irrepairable harm to this core?

[Ranma]

i wonder if doc gets a whiff of this media "bad-gm" stuff, because the more of it the better even though years-long damage has already been done to the team.

i think he's an egomaniac (or maybe incompetent, or both?) but you would think at some point some of this negative media has to rub off on him. you'd have to be angrily ignorant for it not to make you self-evaluate a bit.

I'm sure he's well aware of the criticisms directed at him as GM. He plays it off as letting his critics have their say and aims to prove them all wrong my winning championships and pointing at the results justifying the process. The thing is, even if he were to win this way, it would only prove that his coaching is phenomenally superior to overcome his shortcomings as a general manager.

He was handed a stacked team in Boston and maneuvered his way into another situation where he was provided a shortcut to winning with a strong core and assets to improve. He's since squandered those assets, but it is a testament to the strength of the core group of players as well as his coaching that he's been able to succeed more or less in spite of the degradation of the roster itself.

I think you've been touching on a point that his ego will push him to prove himself as front office executive. As much as he plays off the criticism, his reputation means a lot to him. Now whether he'll allow other people to guide him in a more constructive manner remains to be seen. In the meantime, we're going to have to live with the growing pains of his escapades as a GM-in-training.

[Ranma]

I'm sure he's heard stuff. His own kids have acknowledged the state of the team/assets/needs on Twitter. Fans have said that it was on Doc, and Jeremiah (one of Doc's sons) agreed. Doc knows that there have been some bad acquisitions or else he wouldn't have traded them away or cut them so quickly. My hope is that he gives greater consideration to the staff in the future. I've read where the staff (i.e. scouts, GM's, etc.) were higher on certain players in the draft, but he went with someone else on the list (i.e. Wilcox over McDaniels).

We've picked 25th and 28th in the last 2 seasons. There's been a few solid to nice players selected below that range during that time, but it's totally a crap shoot. Lottery talent is far from guaranteed. At the end of the 1st, you're hoping to find someone that someone can hopefully become a rotation player. As a fan, it's easy to get frustrated when you're doing your own scouting/player evaluations and the front office goes in a totally different direction or a rival lucks out and gets a steal.

The problem isn't just the results, but it's also his approach. His eye for talent apparently can't find the right fits for his own system whether it is draft picks, free agent signings, or trade acquisitions. He says he wants to emulate the Spurs' approach, but San Antonio would rather pass on a questionable target than risk a bad fit to its roster. Meanwhile, Doc has mostly been what seems like haphazardly signing perimeter players who don't play much or well for him only to be later discarded with some notably requiring additional assets to dump.

Yeah, the draft is a crapshoot, but he's been drafting prospects projected to have more polish with lower upside who were supposed to contribute but neither Wilcox or Bullock were afforded opportunities to show their wares or even attention towards development. Rudy Gobert and K.J. McDaniels were respectively selected after those Clippers' draft choices and each would have addressed glaring needs at the time as well as holes on our current roster. However, his son, was given plenty of both in his first season with the team despite being considered a bust on the brink of being out of the league if not for his father's helping hand. As I've mentioned previously, the Spurs team he holds in such high regard were not only able to draft Kawhi Leonard (via trade) and Tiago Splitter with mid-to-late first-round draft picks, but also quickly assimilate them into their rotation. If the Clippers insist on wasting draft choices, couldn't they at least do so by gambling on high-upside prospects and giving a modicum of developmental attention in a roll of the dice?

Doc's approach leads me to believe that he was cocky and dismissive in thinking that he couldn't waste time with draft picks and instead relied on securing bargain-bin buyouts and free agent signings through his salesmanship and clout around the league, but that has yet to bear any significant fruit. Plus, he also squandered away his biggest and best trade asset in Eric Bledsoe for basically the right to give up a first-round selection in order to dump Jared Dudley; J.J. Redick was basically acquired for two second-round choices that could have been obtained anywhere (namely Orlando in a Tobias Harris trade) as a component of another deal in order to entice Milwaukee into participating in the sign-and-trade.

While there are no guarantees, the fact remains that there have been plenty of avenues and advantages Doc could have utilized to better this team, yet he has seemingly gone out of his way to squander practically all of them. It takes a special kind of idiocy or stubbornness to miss that much. Will he eventually prove to be a better student of learning from his mistakes than DJ at the free-throw line? That is frustratingly uncertain.

[QRich3]

Plus, he also squandered away his biggest and best trade asset in Eric Bledsoe for basically the right to give up a first-round selection in order to dump Jared Dudley; J.J. Redick was basically acquired for two second-round choices that could have been obtained anywhere as a component of another trade in order to entice Milwaukee into participating in the sign-and-trade.

That's definitely not how it worked, the main piece in that trade for us was clearly Redick, and we wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't included Bled for someone to take on Caron's $8M salary. Also, Dudley was a great acquisition and a dream fit, Doc's mistake wasn't to trade for him, but to not be patient with him. Doc's made a lot of blunders in his time here, no need to exaggerate the things he did ok. Not taking Gobert is not a mistake either, not even the Jazz had a clue what they had with him.

Doc's main problem is his long term approach, and his tendency to round the roster with one-season-fix veterans with no value for the next season, as well as his undervaluing of young players on cheap contracts. That's what's left us in a situation with only 4 core players + two 35 year olds who aren't gonna be worth anything pretty soon. Nothing else on the roster has any value or chance to turn into anything valuable, and that translates into a declining roster even though half our core is just entering their prime years.

[Ranma]

That's definitely not how it worked, the main piece in that trade for us was clearly Redick, and we wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't included Bled for someone to take on Caron's $8M salary. Also, Dudley was a great acquisition and a dream fit, Doc's mistake wasn't to trade for him, but to not be patient with him. Doc's made a lot of blunders in his time here, no need to exaggerate the things he did ok. Not taking Gobert is not a mistake either, not even the Jazz had a clue what they had with him.

Doc's main problem is his long term approach, and his tendency to round the roster with one-season-fix veterans with no value for the next season, as well as his undervaluing of young players on cheap contracts. That's what's left us in a situation with only 4 core players + two 35 year olds who aren't gonna be worth anything pretty soon. Nothing else on the roster has any value or chance to turn into anything valuable, and that translates into a declining roster even though half our core is just entering their prime years.

Yes and no. The Clippers had the option of readily unloading Caron Butler's salary onto Orlando, which was reportedly being discussed as the Magic were heavily pursuing Eric Bledsoe and among approximately six suitors for the coveted guard. One proposal had Bledsoe and Butler in exchange for Arron Afflalo, Andrew Nicholson, and a future first-round pick.

Ramona Shelburne, Marc Stein, and Chad Ford, ESPN (6/26/13)

The Orlando Magic and the Los Angeles Clippers have been discussing the possibility of completing a trade headlined by Magic shooting guard Arron Afflalo and prized L.A. point guard Eric Bledsoe in conjunction with Thursday's NBA draft, according to sources close to the process.

Sources told ESPN.com on Tuesday that a trade with those two players as the principals could happen as soon as this week and potentially could be expanded to include Magic forward Andrew Nicholson and a future first-round pick as compensation for the highly coveted Bledsoe.
...

The 23-year-old has been the focus of trade talks for some time, seemingly since the Clippers fought so hard to keep him out of the trade to bring Paul to L.A. Sources say Orlando is only one of a half-dozen teams pursuing Bledsoe after Boston was rebuffed in its attempts to acquire Bledsoe as an offshoot of the Rivers' negotiations.
...

Clippers veteran forward Caron Butler likely would be included in the deal to make the salary-cap math work, but sources say the teams are discussing a variety of options. And Rivers, just handed a large say in personnel matters by the Clippers, has to weigh in.

Sources: Eric Bledsoe Subject of Talks


Phoenix didn't need to be involved at all in order to acquire Redick. J.J. was a Milwaukee free agent who was not going to re-sign and headed to Minnesota for the best deal offered until the Clippers expressed interest. As I mentioned, the Bucks received two second-round selections for their participation in the deal: one from the Clippers and one from Phoenix (which could just as easily have been Orlando in both cases).

Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports (7/2/13)

The Suns will receive Clippers point guard Eric Bledsoe and forward Caron Butler while the Bucks – who facilitated the deal with a sign-and-trade of Redick – get two second-round draft picks, sources said.
...

The Bucks traded for Redick at the February deadline and ultimately decided against re-signing him for the nearly $8 million per season the Clippers did.

The Bucks get a trade exception back in the deal, but it has to be renounced because they're under the salary cap.

The Clippers and Suns will each send one future second round pick to the Bucks.

Clippers Land J.J. Redick, Jared Dudley in Three-Team Trade; Suns Get Eric Bledsoe


Given what the Magic were reportedly willing to offer in order to acquire Bledsoe, it shouldn't have been hard to convince them to give up Tobias Harris, one or two second-round picks (and likely more assets) instead of going for the Dudley offer from the Suns. I begrudgingly accepted the Phoenix deal then because I gave Doc the benefit of the doubt, which he has since spent and didn't deserve in the first place, but in any case, a package from Orlando in addition to getting Redick from the Bucks looked like a better avenue to pursue.

However, given Doc's disdain for draft picks and young players, he apparently went with the veteran Dudley, whom he quickly gave up on and effectively cost the Clippers the opportunity at two first-round draft selections: one from Orlando had we went with the reported Magic deal as well as the one given up to Milwaukee in order to dump the final year of his contract. So even if we didn't go with my preferred scenario that included Tobias Harris, the Clips could still have had Afflalo, Nicholson, a Magic #1 pick in addition to Redick instead of just Redick and also losing a future #1 in 2017.

Yeah, Gobert was a find but you're missing the point. Why draft players with limited upside who duplicate what you already have if you're not going to play them, anyway, or even invest the resources toward their development when you could be using draft picks to not only address holes on the roster but also take a chance on prospects with higher upside potential given the cost-effective opportunity each draft selection represents? Why draft Reggie Bullock when you already had Barnes, Dudley, Redick, and Crawford if he wasn't even going to get an opportunity? Then why repeat that with C.J. Wilcox the following year? It's not just the result but also the approach that represent our cost in opportunities. Doc is effectively closing the door on possibilities with his narrow vision. I've also heard of the rumors of Doc going against his scouts and advisors in selecting Wilcox over K.J. McDaniels, who could have provided some relief at our troublesome SF position.

I don't get why you're even somewhat defending Doc in this instance. Even by your standard of having the Dudley trade classified as a success in a vacuum, he still managed to turn a positive into a negative by, like you said, not being patient with him. The bottom line is he couldn't find a way for Dudley to be a contributor into his system despite hand-picking the deal himself that brought him aboard. This is indicative of practically all of his moves (with very few exceptions), so it's not an isolated incident. It's a habit of self-defeating conduct.

[QRich3]

Yes and no. The Clippers had the option of readily unloading Caron Butler's salary onto Orlando, which was reportedly being discussed as the Magic were heavily pursuing Eric Bledsoe and among approximately six suitors for the coveted guard. One proposal had Bledsoe and Butler in exchange for Arron Afflalo, Andrew Nicholson, and a future first-round pick.

If I remember it correctly, it was reported that it was the Magic who rejected that offer (which didn't include a pick coming to us), and even if they didn't, in that scenario we got Afflalo (a worse player than Redick imo) but we kept a big hole at SF. So it was definitely a worse trade than the one that finally happened.

EDIT- yeah, it was the Orlando Sentinel who reported this right after the trade to the Suns:

One of the biggest stories of the Magic’s offseason — their supposed interest in trading for Eric Bledsoe — turned out to be badly overplayed.
[...]
According to a source familiar with the Magic’s thinking, the Magic weren’t nearly as interested in Bledsoe as the initial reports indicated; although the team thinks Bledsoe has potential, it appears the Magic weren’t convinced that he’ll be an effective starter at point guard.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/o ... tml#page=1

Given what the Magic were reportedly willing to offer in order to acquire Bledsoe, it shouldn't have been hard to convince them to give up Tobias Harris, one or two second-round picks (and likely more assets) instead of going for the Dudley offer from the Suns.

Come on man, no chance at all of that happening, the Magic had just discovered Tobias after the Redick trade and were treating him as the second coming of Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want to give Afflalo for Bledsoe because at the time it was doubtful that he could be a full time starter, no chance at all of getting Afflalo and Harris for him. No one GM would have been able to pull a fantasy trade like that.

The Suns were one of the few teams with capspace to absorb Butler and they did for the price of getting Bled, the Bucks should have been a little more clever and eaten Butler (which they ended up doing anyway) for the right to keep Bled and send us Luc Mbah a Moute with JJ. But they also rejected it, which speaks of the value Bledsoe had at that moment.

However, given Doc's disdain for draft picks and young players, he apparently went with the veteran Dudley, whom he quickly gave up on and effectively cost the Clippers the opportunity at two first-round draft selections: one from Orlando had we went with the reported Magic deal as well as the one given up to Milwaukee in order to dump the final year of his contract. So even if we didn't go with my preferred scenario that included Tobias Harris, the Clips could still have had Afflalo, Nicholson, a Magic #1 pick in addition to Redick instead of just Redick and also losing a future #1 in 2017.

It was an either/or situation, we didn't have the contracts to match both Afflalo and Redick coming to us. Either we found someone to eat Butler's contract in the Redick S&T or we traded Butler's contract to the Magic for Afflalo. The rest of it, I think you're getting too homer-ish in the value of the trades. Bledsoe wasn't enough to land Afflalo by himself, he only had enough value to land Redick because Redick was a FA who told the Bucks "either you S&T trade me to the Clippers and get a couple 2nds or I'm signing with the Wolves and you don't get anything".

Yeah, Gobert was a find but you're missing the point. Why draft players with limited upside who duplicate what you already have if you're not going to play them, anyway, or even invest the resources toward their development when you could be using draft picks to not only address holes on the roster but also take a chance on prospects with higher upside potential given the cost-effective opportunity each draft selection represents? Why draft Reggie Bullock when you already had Barnes, Dudley, Redick, and Crawford if he wasn't even going to get an opportunity? Then why repeat that with C.J. Wilcox the following year? It's not just the result but also the approach that represent our cost in opportunities. Doc is effectively closing the door on possibilities with his narrow vision. I've also heard of the rumors of Doc going against his scouts and advisors in selecting Wilcox over K.J. McDaniels, who could have provided some relief at our troublesome SF position.

The Wilcox pick was a head scratcher, and I said before the draft that we should go with McDaniels, it's somewhere in this forum if you want to search for it. As for the rest, I don't agree with you and I think you're using the benefit of hindsight. 95 times out of 100, those higher upside project of the Gobert mold end up being Stanko Barac, Vladimir Veremeenko and Martynas Andriuskevicius. Who? yeah that's right, Gobert was like stumbling into the winning lottery ticket in a public bathroom, no sense in trying to use him as an example of what should've been done.

For a contending team, the course is 100% to pick a low ceiling/high floor type of guy who can be in the rotation soon and plug a few holes, more than taking a swing at a low percentage project that'll most likely not amount to anything but if you're wildly lucky you'll have a gem. Like Danny Ainge did with guys like Bradley, Big Baby or Sullinger, all of who developed nicely under Doc.

I don't get why you're even somewhat defending Doc in this instance. Even by your standard of having the Dudley trade classified as a success in a vacuum, he still managed to turn a positive into a negative by, like you said, not being patient with him. The bottom line is he couldn't find a way for Dudley to be a contributor into his system despite hand-picking the deal himself that brought him aboard. This is indicative of practically all of his moves (with very few exceptions), so it's not an isolated incident. It's a habit of self-defeating conduct.

I'm defending him in this instance because I agree with him in this instance. I threw a tantrum like a child in this very forum when we traded Dudley to the Bucks, and then another when we traded Bullock, because I didn't agree with it and I felt our title window escaping from our fingers. I'm not defending Doc as a GM generally, but the Bledsoe trade was a good trade, I thought so when it happened and I still stand by it. I think your opinion of the Bledsoe trade is based on a very inaccurate revision of what Bledsoe's value was at the moment of the trade.

[nickhx2]

I'm sure he's heard stuff. His own kids have acknowledged the state of the team/assets/needs on Twitter. Fans have said that it was on Doc, and Jeremiah (one of Doc's sons) agreed. Doc knows that there have been some bad acquisitions or else he wouldn't have traded them away or cut them so quickly. My hope is that he gives greater consideration to the staff in the future. I've read where the staff (i.e. scouts, GM's, etc.) were higher on certain players in the draft, but he went with someone else on the list (i.e. Wilcox over McDaniels).

We've picked 25th and 28th in the last 2 seasons. There's been a few solid to nice players selected below that range during that time, but it's totally a crap shoot. Lottery talent is far from guaranteed. At the end of the 1st, you're hoping to find someone that someone can hopefully become a rotation player. As a fan, it's easy to get frustrated when you're doing your own scouting/player evaluations and the front office goes in a totally different direction or a rival lucks out and gets a steal.

Good post. Certainly also agree and acknowledge what you're saying about our late round picks. I hope I am not sounding like the average fan who goes "well why didn't you draft this guy who turned out to be a star and get hassan whiteside??? DUH!" Hindsight is 20/20 and in a former life I was a professional gambler, so even though I harp on doc not drafting gobert or his signing of hawes, it's not cause of the results. It's because the premise was flawed to begin with whenever doc made these decisions.

Not that you (or anyone else) is making me feel like that 20/20 fan, but hopefully I can explain what I mean. Taking bullock over gobert when we needed a backup big was pretty horrendous. Then CJ wilcox when we already had redick/crawford/bullock was again, pretty horrendous with the names on board (mcgary, payne, mcdaniels? etc). And while I loved the hawes signing, as I mentioned before now that we know doc actually had no clue how to integrate his skills, I feel that is actually a horrible one because the homework wasn't done before-hand. If doc had a legit plan and hawes was just being crap, then honestly I'd still go back and say that was a great signing at the time.

I guess what i'm trying to say is his decisions don't piss me off because they didn't work out, because nobody bats 100% in the draft. His decisions piss me off because they were questionable to very bad decisions at the point they were made.

[nickhx2]

I'm sure he's heard stuff. His own kids have acknowledged the state of the team/assets/needs on Twitter. Fans have said that it was on Doc, and Jeremiah (one of Doc's sons) agreed. Doc knows that there have been some bad acquisitions or else he wouldn't have traded them away or cut them so quickly. My hope is that he gives greater consideration to the staff in the future. I've read where the staff (i.e. scouts, GM's, etc.) were higher on certain players in the draft, but he went with someone else on the list (i.e. Wilcox over McDaniels).

We've picked 25th and 28th in the last 2 seasons. There's been a few solid to nice players selected below that range during that time, but it's totally a crap shoot. Lottery talent is far from guaranteed. At the end of the 1st, you're hoping to find someone that someone can hopefully become a rotation player. As a fan, it's easy to get frustrated when you're doing your own scouting/player evaluations and the front office goes in a totally different direction or a rival lucks out and gets a steal.

The problem isn't just the results, but it's also his approach. His eye for talent apparently can't find the right fits for his own system whether it is draft picks, free agent signings, or trade acquisitions. He says he wants to emulate the Spurs' approach, but San Antonio would rather pass on a questionable target than risk a bad fit to its roster. Meanwhile, Doc has mostly been what seems like haphazardly signing perimeter players who don't play much or well for him only to be later discarded with some notably requiring additional assets to dump.

Yeah, the draft is a crapshoot, but he's been drafting prospects projected to have more polish with lower upside who were supposed to contribute but neither Wilcox or Bullock were afforded opportunities to show their wares or even attention towards development. Rudy Gobert and K.J. McDaniels were respectively selected after those Clippers' draft choices and each would have addressed glaring needs at the time as well as holes on our current roster. However, his son, was given plenty of both in his first season with the team despite being considered a bust on the brink of being out of the league if not for his father's helping hand. As I've mentioned previously, the Spurs team he holds in such high regard were not only able to draft Kawhi Leonard (via trade) and Tiago Splitter with mid-to-late first-round draft picks, but also quickly assimilate them into their rotation. If the Clippers insist on wasting draft choices, couldn't they at least do so by gambling on high-upside prospects and giving a modicum of developmental attention in a roll of the dice?

Doc's approach leads me to believe that he was cocky and dismissive in thinking that he couldn't waste time with draft picks and instead relied on securing bargain-bin buyouts and free agent signings through his salesmanship and clout around the league, but that has yet to bear any significant fruit. Plus, he also squandered away his biggest and best trade asset in Eric Bledsoe for basically the right to give up a first-round selection in order to dump Jared Dudley; J.J. Redick was basically acquired for two second-round choices that could have been obtained anywhere (namely Orlando in a Tobias Harris trade) as a component of another deal in order to entice Milwaukee into participating in the sign-and-trade.

While there are no guarantees, the fact remains that there have been plenty of avenues and advantages Doc could have utilized to better this team, yet he has seemingly gone out of his way to squander practically all of them. It takes a special kind of idiocy or stubbornness to miss that much. Will he eventually prove to be a better student of learning from his mistakes than DJ at the free-throw line? That is frustratingly uncertain.

have you always used red font? maybe i only just noticed but i had a hard time reading this until i put it into quote mode lol

[Ranma]

have you always used red font? maybe i only just noticed but i had a hard time reading this until i put it into quote mode lol

It's actually dark orange. I typically use that color--believe it or not--to make it easier for readers to distinguish my reply to quotes, otherwise, I use the default black in standalone posts. If you want me to use a different font color in my quote replies, I can try blue or one you'd suggest.

[Ranma]

If I remember it correctly, it was reported that it was the Magic who rejected that offer (which didn't include a pick coming to us), and even if they didn't, in that scenario we got Afflalo (a worse player than Redick imo) but we kept a big hole at SF. So it was definitely a worse trade than the one that finally happened.

EDIT- yeah, it was the Orlando Sentinel who reported this right after the trade to the Suns:

One of the biggest stories of the Magic’s offseason — their supposed interest in trading for Eric Bledsoe — turned out to be badly overplayed.
[...]
According to a source familiar with the Magic’s thinking, the Magic weren’t nearly as interested in Bledsoe as the initial reports indicated; although the team thinks Bledsoe has potential, it appears the Magic weren’t convinced that he’ll be an effective starter at point guard.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/o ... tml#page=1

I have no reason to doubt the Orlando Sentinel since it's not the New York Post in terms of reputation, however, you're citing a report by Magic beat writer Josh Robbins who was fed information by a person presumably close to the team and not necessarily even in the front office. While I have disdain for the ESPN organization as a whole, the report I cited included contributions from both Ramona Shelburne and Marc Stein, two people well connected to the Clippers and NBA, respectively, and considered reputable by all accounts. Both Shelburne and Stein had been following the situation from their own ends and, in working within the same organization, had to have collaborated and compared notes to sift through what is true from noise. In fact, those same ESPN reporters cited sources that the Clippers were pursuing both Arron Afflalo and Danny Granger in an earlier co-authored article. On the other hand, Robbins was fed something to serve as a mouthpiece on behalf of the Magic to spin after-the-fact that the players who were going to be traded weren't really going to be traded, after all. Don't fall for the public relations stunt.

Marc Stein and Ramona Shelburne, ESPN (6/17/13)

Sources say that the Clippers, meanwhile, have already engaged the Orlando Magic and Indiana Pacers in separate trade discussions headlined by Bledsoe, with Orlando's Arron Afflalo and Indiana's Danny Granger as the respective trade targets. Indiana, according to sources, is leaning at present toward keeping Granger for the final season of his contract in hopes that the former All-Star swingman's return from knee surgery can help the Pacers close the gap on Miami in the East, but L.A. has been operating for months under the premise that Bledsoe, once Paul re-signs, will be dealt before becoming a restricted free agent in July 2014.

Sources: Clips Resist Trading Bledsoe


Plus, Brian Schmitz, a sports reporter also for the Orlando Sentinel who considers himself as an insider and wrote a book about Dwight Howard's exit from the Magic, quotes their GM the day before the draft that they still had interest in Bledsoe. The team ended up drafting Victor Oladipo, another guard in need of developing PG skills, with the 2nd overall pick in 2013. It still expressed interest in Bledsoe even after the draft, which was considered a weak class.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MagicInsider/status/350471117108019202[/tweet]

Come on man, no chance at all of that happening, the Magic had just discovered Tobias after the Redick trade and were treating him as the second coming of Carmelo Anthony. They didn't want to give Afflalo for Bledsoe because at the time it was doubtful that he could be a full time starter, no chance at all of getting Afflalo and Harris for him. No one GM would have been able to pull a fantasy trade like that.

The Suns were one of the few teams with capspace to absorb Butler and they did for the price of getting Bled, the Bucks should have been a little more clever and eaten Butler (which they ended up doing anyway) for the right to keep Bled and send us Luc Mbah a Moute with JJ. But they also rejected it, which speaks of the value Bledsoe had at that moment.

I acknowledge that the Magic didn't want to trade Harris and instead preferred to deal Afflalo--which they eventually did to Denver--to preserve their youth movement, however, Bledsoe was a hot commodity pursued by multiple teams, so it stands to reason--especially with the GM even going on record to express interest--that the Magic did offer the package of Afflalo, Nicholson, and a #1 pick to stand out from the crowd. Under that premise, it's conceivable that a deal centered around Tobias Harris could have been worked. The Magic seemed to have expressed clear interest in Bledsoe and even drafted a player somewhat similar to him but lower in upside. Based on reported trade targets and the proclivities he has shown since, Doc was not interested in developing assets or young players. Heck, he wanted to swap DJ for KG upon his arrival before the league saved him from himself.

Again, you're basing your assumption on a report citing a "sour grapes" quote from someone "familiar with the Magic's thinking" after-the-fact once the deal with Phoenix happened. Where was this talk prior to negotiations? You'd think some posturing by Orlando would have helped in leveraging their position if Doc really was interested in what they were offering yet the Magic GM was the one expressing interest in consummating a deal. Doc was looking to kill two birds with one stone in dealing Bledsoe by going after two vet wing players. Bledsoe was being pursued by many suitors but Doc's narrow vision limited his options to the Suns' deal.

It was an either/or situation, we didn't have the contracts to match both Afflalo and Redick coming to us. Either we found someone to eat Butler's contract in the Redick S&T or we traded Butler's contract to the Magic for Afflalo. The rest of it, I think you're getting too homer-ish in the value of the trades. Bledsoe wasn't enough to land Afflalo by himself, he only had enough value to land Redick because Redick was a FA who told the Bucks "either you S&T trade me to the Clippers and get a couple 2nds or I'm signing with the Wolves and you don't get anything".

If the primary target was Redick, which I approved of, then there was no need to go after Afflalo. Hence, my proposal to center a deal around Tobias Harris. You're right that there would have been no room for both Afflalo and Redick on the Clippers' roster given the cap limitations, so there would have been another team necessary to offload Afflalo to. Why not Denver where he ended up going, anyway...perhaps for Wilson Chandler? In any case, I was not interested in giving up Bledsoe for Afflalo despite being a fan of his. Something could have been worked out with the Magic. What was discouraging was that there was no mention of Doc even asking for Harris, so who knows what the Magic would have been really willing to do if they were indeed aggressively pursuing Bledsoe.

I also find it dubious for you to think that Bledsoe was not enough to land Afflalo by himself when Orlando had been trying to trade him before eventually getting Evan Fournier and a late second-round pick for him from the Nuggets. Eric Bledsoe was hotly pursued and valued by multiple teams including the Magic who despite drafting Oladipo 2nd overall in 2013 followed up by drafting another point guard in Elfrid Payton with the 10th overall selection the following year in 2014. It seems clear to me that the Magic were hot and heavy for Bledsoe, Doc just wasn't interested in what they had to offer. Orlando then leaked a vague and anonymous statement afterwards to spare feelings and save face.

As I detailed previously, Redick could have been obtained easily without the Suns' participation had Doc pursued the option with the Magic, who were obviously interested in getting a deal done.

The Wilcox pick was a head scratcher, and I said before the draft that we should go with McDaniels, it's somewhere in this forum if you want to search for it. As for the rest, I don't agree with you and I think you're using the benefit of hindsight. 95 times out of 100, those higher upside project of the Gobert mold end up being Stanko Barac, Vladimir Veremeenko and Martynas Andriuskevicius. Who? yeah that's right, Gobert was like stumbling into the winning lottery ticket in a public bathroom, no sense in trying to use him as an example of what should've been done.

For a contending team, the course is 100% to pick a low ceiling/high floor type of guy who can be in the rotation soon and plug a few holes, more than taking a swing at a low percentage project that'll most likely not amount to anything but if you're wildly lucky you'll have a gem. Like Danny Ainge did with guys like Bradley, Big Baby or Sullinger, all of who developed nicely under Doc.

Again, you're missing the point. I'm not disputing your prospect assessment as I believe we share some of the same sensibilities in that regard. However, I am not criticizing Doc for missing out on specifically Gobert. I questioned the drafting of Bullock at the time given our aforementioned glut of wings on the roster when other areas of needs should have been addressed. I was open to seeing how it would work out given that Doc was afforded goodwill upon his arrival, but his handling of Bullock's development since then only confirmed the suspicious approach with that selection. Defending it after the fact and citing Danny Ainge is irrelevant because Doc has shown he is incapable of doing what Ainge or any other competent GM would have done. Doc wants to emulate Popovich's Spurs yet doesn't see the value in draft picks like Kawhi Leonard and Tiago Splitter when he's going the cookie-cutter route in his draft selections and compounding mistakes by packaging them to unload previous misfits to his system like Dudley.

Yes, the draft is a crapshoot, but there is something to be said for devoting resources and personnel towards talent assessment. Neil Olshey was a draft junkie. Sam Presti made the most of his picks. And the Spurs have found hits and contributors even as they are are perennially at the bottom of the draft order. My problem with Doc is that he has treated the draft more as an afterthought instead of a focus.

I'm defending him in this instance because I agree with him in this instance. I threw a tantrum like a child in this very forum when we traded Dudley to the Bucks, and then another when we traded Bullock, because I didn't agree with it and I felt our title window escaping from our fingers. I'm not defending Doc as a GM generally, but the Bledsoe trade was a good trade, I thought so when it happened and I still stand by it. I think your opinion of the Bledsoe trade is based on a very inaccurate revision of what Bledsoe's value was at the moment of the trade.

I don't have a problem with Dudley in and of himself, but I strongly disagree with you that the Phoenix deal was the only or best offer available at the time. You view the trade in a vacuum, which is fine to an extent, but the deal didn't work with Doc at the helm. Doc is the primary reason for the failure. It would have been acceptable had things worked out but there was at least one more appealing offer on the table given the reports I've cited above. Yes, Doc could have screwed those other assets up as well but Dudley's injury was an unfortunate circumstance, which Doc only exacerbated in continuing to play an injured player. Healthier and younger bodies would have contributed more, obviously.

Like I said, even with his one arguably good call as a GM, he still found a way to screw things up. So what's the point in defending his GM performance when his conduct as a coach only screws things up? It's been clear that he should not be both GM and coach. If he's responsible for screwing things up in one role, he shouldn't really be praised for making that screw-up possible in the first place. You can't separate his performance in dual roles because each play off of the other with him in total control of both.

[TucsonClip]

I don't think Doc has made it impossible to supplement this core, but he sure as hell made it far more difficult.

The entire Dudley thing pissed me off last season, especially having watched Dudley for years and been a fan. You could tell he didn't look the same, he didn't look right. However, to package a 1st just to dump his salary so Doc could fill his roster is as bad a move as any GM can make. Its roster building 101... Especially with the NBA TV deal coming. 1st round picks are now worth their weight in gold and Rivers has squandered three of them.

The good news is we have no choice but to pay DJ this summer. That's good news because we still have a very good core. Barring a title I think Crawford has to be on the move for a SF and we need to look at a backup PG with at least part of our MLE. I am a pretty big Cory Joseph fan and think he would be a solid fit, even as a RFA.

Doc the GM has been terrible. I just hope it doesn't cost us this season.

[nickhx2]

I don't think Doc has made it impossible to supplement this core, but he sure as hell made it far more difficult.

The entire Dudley thing pissed me off last season, especially having watched Dudley for years and been a fan. You could tell he didn't look the same, he didn't look right. However, to package a 1st just to dump his salary so Doc could fill his roster is as bad a move as any GM can make. Its roster building 101... Especially with the NBA TV deal coming. 1st round picks are now worth their weight in gold and Rivers has squandered three of them.

The good news is we have no choice but to pay DJ this summer. That's good news because we still have a very good core. Barring a title I think Crawford has to be on the move for a SF and we need to look at a backup PG with at least part of our MLE. I am a pretty big Cory Joseph fan and think he would be a solid fit, even as a RFA.

Doc the GM has been terrible. I just hope it doesn't cost us this season.

reminds me of all the arguments you had with one particular poster on our old forums who clearly had no idea how to value dudley's contributions despite all the evidence you presented.

glad i don't have to read his bs anymore

[TucsonClip]

I don't think Doc has made it impossible to supplement this core, but he sure as hell made it far more difficult.

The entire Dudley thing pissed me off last season, especially having watched Dudley for years and been a fan. You could tell he didn't look the same, he didn't look right. However, to package a 1st just to dump his salary so Doc could fill his roster is as bad a move as any GM can make. Its roster building 101... Especially with the NBA TV deal coming. 1st round picks are now worth their weight in gold and Rivers has squandered three of them.

The good news is we have no choice but to pay DJ this summer. That's good news because we still have a very good core. Barring a title I think Crawford has to be on the move for a SF and we need to look at a backup PG with at least part of our MLE. I am a pretty big Cory Joseph fan and think he would be a solid fit, even as a RFA.

Doc the GM has been terrible. I just hope it doesn't cost us this season.

reminds me of all the arguments you had with one particular poster on our old forums who clearly had no idea how to value dudley's contributions despite all the evidence you presented.

glad i don't have to read his bs anymore

Dudley was the scape goat last year, but you could tell by watching him he wasn't healthy. The funny thing is I never even brought up his solid play this season. Everyone saw it. Hopefully, Doc saw it more than anyone else, because we needed him badly this season.

[QRich3]

Again, you're basing your assumption on a report citing a "sour grapes" quote from someone "familiar with the Magic's thinking" after-the-fact once the deal with Phoenix happened. Where was this talk prior to negotiations? You'd think some posturing by Orlando would have helped in leveraging their position if Doc really was interested in what they were offering yet the Magic GM was the one expressing interest in consummating a deal. Doc was looking to kill two birds with one stone in dealing Bledsoe by going after two vet wing players. Bledsoe was being pursued by many suitors but Doc's narrow vision limited his options to the Suns' deal.

Nah man, I'm not basing my whole argument in that report, that's the first thing I found without putting much effort. I really don't feel like surfing for links to proof what I'm saying (specially not today), but anyone following the league closely knew Bledsoe's value was not even close to what you suggest. I remember Zach Lowe and Sam Amick saying no GM in the league considered Bledsoe a surefire starter (again, I'm not gonna invest any time in searching for a link, but I'm 100% sure of this), and several other reporters I trust saying similar stuff. Heck, even after his first year on the Suns, most people doubted him as a full time starter when he was a bout to sign his extension. The Magic were sure interested, but no way they offered Afflalo AND a pick from a bottom team like themselves. Go search for threads in the T&T forum around that time, most Magic fans were shooting down the trade without the pick cause they thought they were getting a back up PG for a 20PPG scorer. We knew what we had in Bledsoe, but other teams didn't. Getting Harris, or both Afflalo and Chandler, that's just fantasy stuff that can't be done in reality. Doc's done enough things worthy of criticism, no need to spin a good trade to make him look worse.

Furthermore, forget about the he-said she-said of sources and reporters, trading for Redick and Dudley was the first step in creating the philosophy this team has been using for the last couple of years, spreading the pick'n'roll around Paul and Blake while DJ threats for a lob in the middle. That's the one thing that's given us most of the success we've enjoyed in the last couple of years, and that's something a GM typically envisions, and it's worked to perfection as it's made us a dominant offense in the time Doc's been here. And that's with Dudley not even working out. Then he whiffed most things after that, and if we discuss those, I'm gonna agree with you. But by mid-July 2013, I was very happy with Doc's GM moves.

Again, you're missing the point. I'm not disputing your prospect assessment as I believe we share some of the same sensibilities in that regard. However, I am not criticizing Doc for missing out on specifically Gobert. I questioned the drafting of Bullock at the time given our aforementioned glut of wings on the roster when other areas of needs should have been addressed.

Now I'm just not sure what your point is... Our wing rotation at the time of the draft consisted of Barnes, Crawford, Butler and Willie Green. Not only you're going nowhere with that, those are all veterans who'd be heavily declining in a couple years (any time now), so being consistent with the spread P&R system he envisioned for the team, one of the biggest needs would be to develop a 3&D wing who'd be ready to play in a couple years. Which is right now, and still remains one of our biggest needs. Watching how the 2013 draft finally shaped, I see no one other than Gobert that still to this day I prefer to Bullock. You can argue a case for Robertson or Goodwin or Crabbe, having watched Reggie I'd rather go with him.

Yes, the draft is a crapshoot, but there is something to be said for devoting resources and personnel towards talent assessment. Neil Olshey was a draft junkie. Sam Presti made the most of his picks. And the Spurs have found hits and contributors even as they are are perennially at the bottom of the draft order. My problem with Doc is that he has treated the draft more as an afterthought instead of a focus.

Ok, now I'm with you 100%, a good GM like Oshley or Presti either knows a lot about player evaluation and projecting development, or surrounds himself with people who does. And Doc not only hasn't got a clue about any of that, but he surrounds himself with clueless yes-men with an appetite for undeserved power. You also need to be clever and think out of the box with roster building and long term assets, and every one of Doc's transactions has been the exact opposite of that.

Like I said, even with his one arguably good call as a GM, he still found a way to screw things up. So what's the point in defending his GM performance when his conduct as a coach only screws things up? It's been clear that he should not be both GM and coach. If he's responsible for screwing things up in one role, he shouldn't really be praised for making that screw-up possible in the first place. You can't separate his performance in dual roles because each play off of the other with him in total control of both.

Well, I believe in trying to fairly account for both the good and the bad when evaluating someone's performance, and even though I have to agree that Doc has been obviously a disaster so far, I think you have to also take a look at the good things he's done. And you have to give credit for the way he has this team play bacuse they've looked elite enough to fight head to head with any team in the league since he's been here. And a part of that is roster-building philosophy and the system he's installed. He's looked for a very specific type of big man (Hawes, Mullens, Jamison) and a very specific type of wing (Dudley, Redick, Bullock, Wilcox). Unfortunately he sucks so much at talent evaluation that having a good vision is not worth a lot.

But take a look at other GM's around the league: guys like McDonough or Hennigan are awesome at winning transactions and nailing draft picks, but they don't seem to be any good at roster building, fit, and creating a specific type of culture with a specific type of system. Would we be better that way? who knows, probably yes since talent trumps anything else, but it's at least worth it to note that Doc knows a lot about basketball and is not the boogie man. He's just an obstinate old man with no clue on a few aspects of GMing and stubborn enough to not listen to others who know better.

[mattd13]

doc is like the girl who is not looking for mr. right but for mr. right now. sometimes you get the bear and sometimes he gets you. I think the bear is winning this one. doc has to put some interest on the development of players.

[MartinToVaught]

He's not even looking for Mr. Right Now, he's looking for Mr. Eight Years Ago. Most of his signings have been fossilized vets whose names he remembered from the mid-2000s East.

I also don't think his "vision" for the roster is THAT great. Despite winning his only championship on the strength of a lockdown defense, Doc has completely neglected that side of the ball when building this team. Additionally, he doesn't seem to grasp the importance of length in today's NBA. I look at a team like the Bucks, who seemingly have a roster full of long players who can cover a lot of ground defensively, and wonder why anyone would want to instead collect a bunch of small perimeter-chucking guards like Doc has been doing.

[Clemenza]

Kind of sad how Doc hasn't really added anything to this roster other than Redick. How do you go after, acquire, and pay a guy like Hawes that kind of money and not play him. Usually a GM has to be good at something. Maybe he can't draft for sh*t but he can make blockbuster trades that help the team, or maybe he can draft his ass off but can't lure free agents or make trades for sh*t.. and so on and so on. But are we looking at a guy that can't do nothing right as a GM??? You can't draft, you can't even get the good aging vets like KG or Paul Pierce, you can't make a decent trade to save your life, you're signings are trash, etc.. Its truly mind boggling.

Even despite all that- Raduljica, Joe Ingles, Hasan Whitside, Cunningham, KJ McDaniels(draft), Robert Covington(D league- sixers), etc were all there for the taking. That would be a nice bench right there alone.. Plus I'm looking at Hamilton, Lester Hudson, and CJ Wilcox, and Udoh rotting away on the bench like wtf?? Are these guys that much worse than what Crawford, Rivers, and Hedo are putting out for us?

-I'm literally worried about our future with Doc at the helm. I don't see him changing his approach to player personal or Balmer getting an actual GM

[Quake Griffin]

clicked on last page.

not reading a single reply ITT until our season is officially over.

[madmaxmedia]

I don't see how anybody could say the clippers wing starters are a strength..Both Barnes and Redick are severly flawed..If it's wasnt for the fact that they get to play alongside maybe the best top3 core in basketball, both would be totally viewed as nothing more than role players who should come off the bench. Clippers are painfully weak on the wing.

We have good starters everywhere except the 3. The other guys are not 'flawed'' so much as they're just not good at absolutely everything which is true for just about any player. When you add all their individual strengths and weaknesses, a 3 who can create would be the best way to improve the team.

I really like Redick, but having a spot up shooter type at the 2 means you want something different at the 3.

Barnes is a gutsy player, but I'd love for him to come off the bench.

[mattd13]

madmax did you watch the spurs series or last night's game. probably not.