If the 96 Bulls played the 2015 Warriors tomorrow, what would the score be?

[JeepCSC]

Incidentally the line had moved back in 1998.

[tsherkin]

Incidentally the line had moved back in 1998.

Given age and a half season from Pip, not the most relevant thing. Kukoc shot over 36% from 3 anyway... Primary stars were mid 30s and played tons and tons of deep playoff runs. That matters more. In any case, their efficacy was STILL strong with their second star playing 44 games and 34 year-old Jordan having a down season...

[Ballerhogger]

Bulls win. Elite defensive wing and rodman and great bench as well. Jordan would treat klay like a rag doll

[JeepCSC]

No, I was agreeing more or less. The Bulls weren't built as a 3-point team, so they weren't destined to be hurt by it whatever the distance it was.

[CaliBullsFan]

If it's a game where for every 3 the Warriors take the Bulls take a midrange jumper I know who I'm taking. Jordan can be double teamed non stop and the repercussions aren't as bad because they can do it leaving a midrange jump shooter open instead of a 3pt shooter like in the modern game.

96 Bulls could take the 15 Bulls with no prep time which is impressive enough on its own considering I am guessing that in football, baseball and hockey the top team from 96 probably loses easily to any top 10 team right now. Warriors though are kind of built to take advantage of the modern game's changes compared to mid 90s and are this modern analytics ferrari

I would suggest watching the 96 Bulls #1 they are one of the top 5 defenses ever, I would like to know who on Golden State is consistently drawing double teams? And on offense when you double teamed MJ they usually got layups and put backs.

And you couldn't be more wrong.
-The top NHL team from 96 would kill the top NHL team from today because the NHL didn't have a salary cap in 96 + roids. The 96 Avalanche would be impossible to assemble in 2015
-The NFL had just started having a salary cap so teams hadn't quite been destroyed yet + more developed players + roids. The 96 Packers would be impossible to assemble in 2015
-Major League Baseball had roids

Stephen Curry consistently draws double teams all the time...

Not against Bulls he wouldn't

[Ballerhogger]

90 to 80 bulls

[Dr Positivity]

Yeah dopey old Phil Jackson is going to be confused and befuddled by the mystical modern 3 pointer

Are you guys serious with this modern 3 pointer crap?

If it's a game where for every 3 the Warriors take the Bulls take a midrange jumper I know who I'm taking. Jordan can be double teamed non stop and the repercussions aren't as bad because they can do it leaving a midrange jump shooter open instead of a 3pt shooter like in the modern game.

96 Bulls could take the 15 Bulls with no prep time which is impressive enough on its own considering I am guessing that in football, baseball and hockey the top team from 96 probably loses easily to any top 10 team right now. Warriors though are kind of built to take advantage of the modern game's changes compared to mid 90s and are this modern analytics ferrari

I would suggest watching the 96 Bulls #1 they are one of the top 5 defenses ever, I would like to know who on Golden State is consistently drawing double teams? And on offense when you double teamed MJ they usually got layups and put backs.

And you couldn't be more wrong.
-The top NHL team from 96 would kill the top NHL team from today because the NHL didn't have a salary cap in 96 + roids. The 96 Avalanche would be impossible to assemble in 2015
-The NFL had just started having a salary cap so teams hadn't quite been destroyed yet + more developed players + roids. The 96 Packers would be impossible to assemble in 2015
-Major League Baseball had roids

What I mean is in all of them analytics has changed the game to make teams approach games more intelligently strategically. Nearly two decades of computer technology and millions put into studying the game makes a difference. The complexity of modern football plays and understanding of spacing, etc. in passing era overwhelms what they knew a few decades ago. Hockey likewise is a sport where spacing is essential and offense and defensive strategies have evolved. In baseball pitchers and hitters knowing caring about moneyball era philosophies though changes how they approach at bat, in addition to the somewhat lesser but still meaningful effect of fielding defensive strategies like shifting (If they're allowed to use roids that may be more powerful, though using roids is somewhat analogous to letting the 96 Bulls shoot in the shorter 3pt line). It doesn't change the talent of the players and how if they had TIME they could all catch up, but personally I don't believe any of these teams 20 years ago are playing a "better game" in a vacuum than what the modern best are capable of.

[CaliBullsFan]

The lack of good back to the basket big men and surplus of good PGs is what resulted in "modern NBA strategies" not decades of mathematical data and computer technology. The only thing that has improved is scouting.

[Asianiac_24]

It's doubtful the Warriors beat teams like the 96 Sonics or 97 Jazz. They would stand zero chance against the 96 Bulls.

A 10 SRS team has 0 chance against the 96 Bulls? Really?

Stephen Curry consistently draws double teams all the time...

Not against Bulls he wouldn't

Tony Allen is a better defender now than 96 Jordan/Pippen, or AT THE VERY LEAST on par, yet Curry still draws double teams against Allen. MJ isn't some mystical creature who can just stop anyone, especially legit superstars like Curry. I swear anything related to MJ's Bulls gets ridiculously overrated on this board. Stephen Curry, a 26.2/8.5/4.7 per 36 player on 64 TS%, won't draw double teams against the Bulls?

BTW, MJ shot 54 TS% against the Sonics in the Finals with a shortened 3 point line. 96' Sonics and 15' Warriors are nearly identical in DRTG. 96' MJ wasn't completely unstoppable like some on this board are saying.

[JeepCSC]

Those Sonics had Payton. Drtg's don't matter so much as personnel. That said, Curry would not have been stopped completely. He's too good. But that's a fearsome defensive backcourt the Bulls can throw at him and Klay. Would have been an entertaining series.

[BullBearBidness]

This GSW **** has officially gone too far. Are some of you mad? I can't wait til this overrated ass paper tiger gets knocked out, which they will.

It's f'ed up cause I like every single player on their team, but the incessant hyping going on here at realGM makes them impossible to root for.

Understand this, you will never have an argument for being an all-time great team without 1) having a top 15 all-time player 2) winning it all. That means even IF GS wins it, they still would never be an ATG.

Let's run a thought experiment for anyone who disagrees: Tell me who YOUR top 15 teams of all-time are. I guarantee Curry is not in the realm of whoever the best player on any of the teams is.

[CaliBullsFan]

This GSW **** has officially gone too far. Are some of you mad? I can't wait til this overrated ass paper tiger gets knocked out, which they will.

It's f'ed up cause I like every single player on their team, but the incessant hyping going on here at realGM makes them impossible to root for.

Understand this, you will never have an argument for being an all-time great team without 1) having a top 15 all-time player 2) winning it all. That means even IF GS wins it, they still would never be an ATG.

Let's run a thought experiment for anyone who disagrees: Tell me who YOUR top 15 teams of all-time are. I guarantee Curry is not in the realm of whoever the best player on any of the teams is.

The 89 Pistons and 73 Knicks are ALWAYS in the discussion for greatest team of all time.

[te887848]

It's doubtful the Warriors beat teams like the 96 Sonics or 97 Jazz. They would stand zero chance against the 96 Bulls.

A 10 SRS team has 0 chance against the 96 Bulls? Really?

Pretty much. SRS is good for showing what you did against a bunch of random regular season teams, some elite but most not very good. In judging their chances against the 96 Bulls, it is quite useless and what matters more is how the 15 Warriors match up against the 96 Bulls, which is not very well.

The Warriors are honestly weak offensively outside of Curry and Klay. It's very conceivable to picture Pippen taking out Klay straight up 1 on 1 in the series and Harper and Jordan shutting down Curry.

At the very least, it's much easier to conceive the Warriors big 2 getting locked down than Jordan. The Warriors have no one to match up with him.

Warriors are good but not that good.

[etopn23]

It's doubtful the Warriors beat teams like the 96 Sonics or 97 Jazz. They would stand zero chance against the 96 Bulls.

A 10 SRS team has 0 chance against the 96 Bulls? Really?

Stephen Curry consistently draws double teams all the time...

Not against Bulls he wouldn't

Tony Allen is a better defender now than 96 Jordan/Pippen, or AT THE VERY LEAST on par, yet Curry still draws double teams against Allen. MJ isn't some mystical creature who can just stop anyone, especially legit superstars like Curry. I swear anything related to MJ's Bulls gets ridiculously overrated on this board. Stephen Curry, a 26.2/8.5/4.7 per 36 player on 64 TS%, won't draw double teams against the Bulls?

BTW, MJ shot 54 TS% against the Sonics in the Finals with a shortened 3 point line. 96' Sonics and 15' Warriors are nearly identical in DRTG. 96' MJ wasn't completely unstoppable like some on this board are saying.

Good lord man, that team had Gary Payton in his defensive prime. Arguably the GREATEST perimeter defender who has ever played the game. There is no one - and I mean *no one* on that Golden State team who could man him up the way he did.

On top of that, I don't even know how legal it would be to play Payton's brand of defense in todays NBA.

[Jaivl]

At the very least, it's much easier to conceive the Warriors big 2 getting locked down than Jordan. The Warriors have no one to match up with him.

Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green, Klay Thompson + Andrew Bogut patrolling the paint. Two All-NBA defenders and another good defender, all of them athletic and big.

[NO-KG-AI]

The Warriors couldn't even slow down Anthony Davis. They're an analytic monster over the course of a season, but Jordan would wreck that team.

[HeartBreakKid]

The Warriors couldn't even slow down Anthony Davis. They're an analytic monster over the course of a season, but Jordan would wreck that team.

Well, that's not true, they did slow down Anthony Davis. He may have got his numbers, but he certainly wasn't having his way with Golden State.

Jordan and AD are totally different type of scorers also, so I don't see how one could come to the conclusion that Jordan would wreck GS.

I think Andre Iguodala would give Jordan a lot of problems. At least Iggy would if he was younger, I guess now Jordan could have his way with him, but still a very good defender on him none the less.

On top of that Iggy is being backed by two anchors in the paint. This isn't the 97 Jazz where Jordan is isolating against Stockton over and over again.

[NO-KG-AI]

The Warriors couldn't even slow down Anthony Davis. They're an analytic monster over the course of a season, but Jordan would wreck that team.

Well, that's not true, they did slow down Anthony Davis. He may have got his numbers, but he certainly wasn't having his way with Golden State.

Jordan and AD are totally different type of scorers also, so I don't see how one could come to the conclusion that Jordan would wreck GS.

I think Andre Iguodala would give Jordan a lot of problems. At least Iggy would if he was younger, I guess now Jordan could have his way with him, but still a very good defender on him none the less.

On top of that Iggy is being backed by two anchors in the paint. This isn't the 97 Jazz where Jordan is isolating against Stockton over and over again.

Because Jordan is a way better scorer than Davis almost any way you slice it, and Davis was matched up against GS's strongest two defenders by being a big man.

The real question is, who does Steve Kerr play for here? I think coach Kerr could design a perfect game plan to make sure the Bulls biggest 3 point threat doesn't become a factor

[tsherkin]

Well, that's not true, they did slow down Anthony Davis. He may have got his numbers, but he certainly wasn't having his way with Golden State.

Well, no, that's not true.

He scored more than he did in the regular season, about 7 more points per game (about 2 more points per 36 minutes) and on higher efficiency. He does have the weakness of not being able to iso-dominate a game, which is common from a lot of bigs, but he was doing serious damage against them. What you saw happening was the Pelicans be unable to elevate themselves to any degree; as a team, their efficacy was a hair higher than in the RS but they didn't have enough help to really step on a Golden State team that couldn't stop Davis. Curry and Klay went HAM, as did Green, but while Gordon and Anderson were nasty from 3, they had only two guys scoring over 10.8 ppg. It wasn't enough.

Keep in mind that Davis put 36 on them in Game 4 while shooting 70%.,.. and they lost by 11. He and Gordon were dynamite, and the rest of the team? 14/42 (33.3%). What's he supposed to do about that? They were down 21 by the START of the 4th quarter and had only scored 13 points in the 3rd. They were impotent defensively against the Golden State attack and couldn't really do anything consistently the other way, Davis aside.

[tsherkin]

So let's look at this in greater detail.

We know that the Bulls did not rely overmuch on the 3, so its absence or a longer distance wouldn't be a HUGE deal.

But for giggles, let's look at Jordan's individual efficacy for those who are like "hurr hurr, the 3pt shot was way closer, so it made him a lot better in 96!"

He was still a 55.6% TS player if you straight-up remove ALL 3FM from his season in 96, while still posting 5.6% ORB, 21.2% AST and 8.4% TOV.

Not sure if people realize that. He was quite efficient without the aid of the 3pt shot, and it behooves people to recall that in 90 and 93, when he took 2+ 3PA/g before the line was moved in, he shot 37.6% and 35.2% respectively. You can assume 33% or so in seasons when he took a decent volume with a healthy hand, but even if you drop it to 30%, he'd have still made 0.96 3PM/g in 96 against the 1.4 he actually made. It's not a huge difference, nor was it critical to his game.

Now then, we return to the comparison of teams.

The Warriors would not be able to stop Jordan. He'd worked against far better defensive centers than Bogut (respect where due, though, Bogut is nasty) and against at WORST comparable defense from what he could expect out of Klay or Green. Yes, the Warriors were very good defensively, but we see guys who are worse than Jordan doing exceptionally well today without elite 3pt shooting. We saw Wade go HAM in 09, for example, which was in the 2.9 era, and he was a monster. Jordan had a better J and off-ball game, plus was taller and a better FT shooter. We see Harden. We see what Kobe has been able to do. And so on.

The 96 Bulls did not just iso Jordan every time. This is a myth. They did it when they good, but the team passed well, that was the whole premise of the triangle and Phil's coaching. They went to MJ for isos when they needed to.

For an example of what I'm discussing, look at his explosion in G3 versus the Knicks that year.

We see him getting elbow posts (a set that STILL works extremely well in the modern era, as we saw time and again when Dirk was a little younger/less calcified). Off-ball movement weakside to fade out for the jumper around screens. Another thing Jordan was really good at, FWIW. It's discussed at times, but conveniently forgotten at others: MJ could do the Reggie/Ray-Ray-Rip thing when he needed to in order to get good baskets. Frequently, his out-of-timeout sets involved him doing this, and he was adept at using screens to pop free for quick Js. He did this, often. Post/Re-post, then a J against the double. He got such wicked separation that, a lot like Dirk (or Kobe, or [insert wicked mid-range shooter here], he was able to get a clean look regardless of the defense, and he could wheel in either direction for the fade from either side of the floor in multiple positions. You saw him get low-block and elbow posts, but he could turn in or turn baseline, and that made him dangerous... particularly he was so adept with body and head fakes. He'd go baseline and you'd think "Fade" and then you'd get "spin, goes to the rack" every now and again to mix it up. That was usually a foul, too, even in 96 when he'd slowed down and bulked up some.

Goes hard to the basket in either direction, as well. Adept handle, didn't waste dribbles being fancy, was still pretty quick, but picked his spots and challenged shot-blockers by going into the body. Protected the ball really well.




Anyway, I digress. You don't need a blow-by-blow of how he scored, and you got it anyway. The point is, Jordan would do more than fine against modern defenses, which are overblown a little bit. Some things are tougher, some are easier, the net result is that there is a premium on good passing... which the Bulls had in abundance. They had balance and they had clever offense. It was only 5 years ago that the Lakers won with a similar offense and a less-effective primary scorer (respect to Kobe, this is not a dig).

In 96, Scottie didn't suck ass in the RS on offense. He was never a really impressive scorer, but that was OK because his value game as a defender and as a primary ball-handler. Perhaps the best thing Scottie ever did for Michael was getting on-ball and running the sets so MJ could set up off-ball and get easier, assisted looks. That was Pippen's offensive utility, and he was great at it. Sharp-minded, knew the system inside, out and backwards, unselfish guy. And in 96, he actually had a 3. Obviously, the pulled-in line helped a lot, but he was just good enough from 3 that he could burn you if you left him open. Obviously inconsistent there, and nothing remarkable, of course. Shooting was always an issue for him, but that's why they had Kerr/Paxson/Hodges/Kukoc/etc at various points. The Bulls were, as any triangle team, big on spacing. It's why the three-peat Lakers had a stretch 4, for example, opening things up for Shaq inside alongside their SF and PG with 3pt shooting ability (and Kobe, for that matter, who was never elite but still veeeery dangerous). Pip was, of course, a pretty nasty player on perimeter twos. In all the talk of his FTs and 3pt shooting, it's sometimes lost that he had a deadly 20-footer.

In 96, he had that shoulder injury in the Knicks series and he was also kinda poop against the Knicks and Sonics. He didn't do "physical" very well, but that wouldn't be an issue against the Warriors.

Were I Chicago, I'd be mostly worried about Curry. Klay, you can chase him off of the 3pt line and he's not nearly as dangerous, plus from a stylistic POV, he's really not any different from Reggie Miller. The Bulls faced his type of player in actual history, and they were able to manage him. Golden State has the most spacing of any team that Chicago actually faced of course, because they can throw out Curry/Klay/Barnes/Green/Bogut, and 4 of those guys can hit at 33%+, but that's OK... because they're not really likely to double anyone that much. Curry is a clear and present threat above OR below the arc (many don't realize he shot 52.8% beneath the arc this year), but the Bulls did a good job on team defense and to be frank, Curry's a lot more dangerous ABOVE the arc than below, so playing him in iso coverage and forcing him beneath the 3pt line is your best bet. Easier said than done, naturally, since he's a great pull-up shooter, though.




Anyway, tactically speaking, the Bulls would be fine against the Warriors. It wouldn't be a cake-walk, that's just disrespectful to the Warriors, but it would likewise not be one in the other direction. The Warriors would have a ton of trouble handling MJ, and it bears mention that the Bulls that year were really good at protecting the ball and quite good at defensive rebounding as well (despite that they were the best offensive rebounding team in the league) AND they generated a crap-load of turnovers.

Golden State would have trouble because they AREN'T that good at protecting the ball or defensive rebounding. They are average to a little below-average at both, which plays into Chicago's style. That's an exploitable angle for the Bulls, who were fairly nasty at getting into the passing lanes and putting pressure on the perimeter.

Along those lines, the Rodman/Green angle would be an interesting one. How much could Draymond suck the Worm away from the rim, and how much would it matter? It wouldn't be critical either way, but it would change the tone of the series a little.

You can pretty much write off anyone who says this would be a sweep in either direction. There would be, even in a bad series for Golden State, at LEAST one game where they got super-hot from 3 and were able to steal one from Chicago, and honestly, with how good Curry is (he shoots from 3 nearly what good scorers shoot OVERALL from the field), you're looking at consistent and significant pressure from the point. You can't even really break up team offense to attack Curry, because he does so much of it without assistance.

6, 7 games. Golden State's a two-way team and an offensive titan.

If you look at the 98 series between CHI/IND, it's not exactly the same deal of course, but the Pacers hit up a Chicago team that was the 3rd-ranked defense in the league and still took 3 games. The Pacers were the 4th/5th offense/defense. They didn't have anyone nearly as dynamic as Curry, and of course Chicago was older, slower and generally worse than they'd been even in 97, let alone 96, but still. Jordan savaged them and Reggie wasn't enough of a volume guy to really put pressure on them, but he did his business from 3. Also, their bigs put pressure on Chicago, even though we're talking mostly about Smits and the Davis boys.

This would be a tight series. Golden State is legitimately good. Watching them against Memphis, you can see that interior defense and post offense aren't awesome for them. Chicago didn't have a dominant interior scorer from the FRONTCOURT, but that's less relevant given that MJ was a high-volume post scorer at that point. We've also watched their titan offense get checked over the first two games. They were -9 and -20 compared to their RS points-per-game average. Memphis is also dictating pace; the Warriors prefer to play at a fast pace. They were THE fastest team in the league at 98.3 in the RS, but they've played at an average of 92.3 over two games (89.7 and 94.9). Their offense was there in game one, and very much NOT in game two. Curry and Kly have looked highly mortal.

Conley tore them apart in one game, of course.

But the notion here is that the Warriors aren't this unstoppable machine. They are incredible, but so were the 96 Bulls and the game hasn't changed enough for this to be quite as radical an advantage as people believe. The Warriors would certainly put up a huge fight, and over a 7-game series, it'd be really, really interesting, but there are strengths and weaknesses in either direction.