Phillips: Jays need to trade for pitching help

[Xaos]

http://www.tsn.ca/video/phillips-jays-need-to-trade-for-pitching-help-1.282420

No other way but to trade one of either EE or Bautista for pitching help.

Trading one of the two mentioned above should get us a quality SP and Closer.

Would you do it?

[Fairview4Life]

Trading EE or Jose for pitching treads water. You need to add pitching to a team with both EE and Jose on it. That's also why another team won't be trading a quality starting pitcher and a closer for either one of them.

[North_of_Border]

Toronto currently has the best offense in the MLB, as far as the numbers go and the bullpen is settling down to become decent at the least. Whats killing this team is what was so solid just last season. The starting rotation.

This season is winnable as of now. Its do-or-die time for AA and Gibbons. They have the pieces, they MUST make a move before it slips away.

With Donaldson now in the picture, I think Jays can afford to sacrifice some offense for a key SP in return. Bautista is the face of the team, so im guessing if it get down to it, EE is the one who would be dealt. Remember Both these guys are only signed for 1 more season and no way Jays can resign both anyways.

Another option is not just to add pitching, but also fix some of the current liabilities. I would personally trade Dickey while he still has value. Yes Jays would be selling low, but at age 40 its not gonna get much higher. He is killing the team. Plus forces Thole to hold a roster spot.

[dagger]

When I look at how Houston's rebuild has gone, it makes me mad that this team won't get on with one, a quick one predicated on Stroman's return, Hoffman's eventual arrival, and the trade value received for one or more of our older veterans. We are just like the Maple Leafs, close to playoffs but no cigar, and determined to tinker around rather than plunge into the needed job of laying in a well-rounded foundation for the future.

That's my third-week-of-June contribution to this thread.

[dballislife]

We do? No way, who woulda thought comin into d year

Man are we gonna blow teams out, get blown out, blow teams out and get blown out til the end of the year, finish around .500 again

We've gotten pretty lucky to have some amazing offensive players the past 5 seasons...and AA and company have failed to surround them with pitching every single year

[dballislife]

And it's tough too, I know our pitching talent can fetch us great returns...i don't wanna give up on them either, but some of our pitching talents current skill level n age don't match up with our positional players...who knows how many years they got left...sometimes u gotta just go for it, when u believe ur ready n good enough, and with better pitching I know starting now and for next 2 years after we can really go for and compete every yr

[torontoaces04]

Is flipping Hutchison + a youngster for a number 2-3 a possibility?

Anyone but Hoffman/Norris/Stroman should be fair game.

[Skin Blues]

Trade Edwin or Jose for pitching? Not if we want to compete in 2015. We have tons of prospects to trade and could easily land Hamels. After the Marlins and Mets trade, I don't know if AA is willing to go that route again, but if he wants to keep his job he may not have any choice. I'd like to see them go all in and trade more prospects, though. Hoffman has a ton of value, might as well cash in on it when we need it.

[Michael Bradley]

If they want to win in 2015, then it would be counter productive. If they want to look towards 2016-beyond, then it would make more sense. I don't think AA is looking at 2016-beyond, nor do I want him making moves for beyond this season. All the faith and goodwill he earned in the off-season is gone, IMO.

[dagger]

Is flipping Hutchison + a youngster for a number 2-3 a possibility?

Anyone but Hoffman/Norris/Stroman should be fair game.

I don't see how you get a #2 or even a #3 once you take them off the table.

[dagger]

The issue with trading for immediate help is how much help do we need to make it worthwhile to extend what is a one-year window, maybe two? If we're shooting for 2015 or bust, does acquiring one good pitcher without trading anyone from the 2015 core really get the job done?

I ask these questions of myself:

Does Cole Hamels or someone of that ilk make us a solid playoff team (not just a team that backs into the wildcard, loses one game, and goes to the golf course)?

If we bolster the pitching staff via one trade, what are the odds our core - or for that matter the rest of our rotation - remain healthy the rest of the season?

If we have injuries to starters and/or key position players, do we have quality depth in the minors, even before subtracting prospects we might trade, to cover adequately?

If such a bolstering effort fails, how much does it set back our future, considering that we probably gave up better current major league talent - d'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Marisnick, Hechiverria, Nicolino, etc - to get Buerhle, Dickey and now Saunders (via Happ). We might have a better team if we hadn't done those trades, and we'd certainly have a better future.

If bolstering fails, how much of the trade value of our older veterans have we lost?

I answer my questions as follows, you might answer them differently:

1. Does not help us nearly enough, the starting rotation is weak and unreliable. A solid addition certainly helps, but leaves us well short of serious contention for anything but first place in the AL East and a fast playoff exit.

2. The record shows that one of Jose Reyes, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion will suffer another significant injury between now and the end of the season. Right now Reyes is out, Jose has a damaged shoulder - an injury a lot more serious, it would seem, than the team is letting on. Edwin is healthy, for now, but shouldn't be playing 1B every day. That's tempting fate.

3. Depth. There's not much out there. The high minors are loaded with organization guys. Our best prospects, certainly our best-performing of our best prospects tend to be at Lansing or below.

The pitching in the high minors has been depleted, I don't think there is a serious promotable starter in the entire system except Hoffman if he does well, and no one on this board really wants to see Hoffman on the major league roster this season. There might be some fringy relief options at New Hampshire. In the outfield, there is Pompey at BUF and Smith JR at NH, and Carrera realistically might end up back at BUF anyway. For SS relief, Goins is what you get. No one else is close. Kawasaki or Andy Burns at 2B/3B, neither of whom will fill the shoes of Travis or Donaldson well at all.

C is a black hole. Do you want Josh Thole as your everyday catcher? AJ Jimenez? At 1B, what is the step down in performance from Edwin to Smoak?

4. If we trade good prospects and that fails to achieve a 2015 breakthrough, where does that leave us? Arguably screwed up the yin yang, because, again, our best prospects, Hoffman aside, are lower in the system and 2-3 years away at best. So it might take until 2018 or 2019 to assemble at team with strong upward potential. We will either have to trade older vets, or tread water. Treading water means two or three more seasons of .500 ball, give or take. Also, trading good prospects and failing to project a winner through 2016 will make the team less interesting to potential AA and Beeston replacements.

5. If Rogers decides it's better to tread water than rebuild - that's the Toronto way, it would seem unless a team's underperforms so badly that rebuilding can no longer be avoided - then any trade value in Jose and Edwin vanishes, and the rebuild, though ultimately necessary to get off the treadmill, is pushed out further into the future.

[BigLeagueChew]

Anyone but Hoffman/Norris/Stroman should be fair game.

Unfortunately for this season this is probably what it comes down to. Wait for them to get here and be ready or trade them if we're not patient enough.

[Double Helix]

Given his injury and the closing Jays window on their elite bats, what is the minimum pitching offer you would accept this year in a deal involving Stroman?

Consider the control the team has on him
Consider his talent
Consider what's out there
Consider that this window of opportunity to take advantage of this incredible offence does have an end date
Consider that if the window is 2-3 years then him missing most of this year is him missing 50-33% of the contention window.

What would be the minimum offer for you to bite the bullet, despite your love for Stroman and the control the team has over him, due to what that offer did now and over the next 2-3 years?

Obviously, the other team would have to value Stroman as a potential Ace and not be in a position of contention and willing to deal with Stro's injury this season.


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[Michael Bradley]

I doubt Rogers will approve a payroll increase mid-season. Not only did payroll decrease in the off-season (USD), but we have evidence to suggest that even being in a playoff spot on July 31 won't urge them spend (see last season).

This season will come down to holding our heads above water, staying healthy, and then hoping for Norris to do what Stroman did last year whenever he comes back up. The winnable division is the only reason the Jays have a shot, but I'm not expecting any help from outside the organization.

[Schad]

Given his injury and the closing Jays window on their elite bats, what is the minimum pitching offer you would accept this year in a deal involving Stroman?

Consider the control the team has on him
Consider his talent
Consider what's out there
Consider that this window of opportunity to take advantage of this incredible offence does have an end date
Consider that if the window is 2-3 years then him missing most of this year is him missing 50-33% of the contention window.

What would be the minimum offer for you to bite the bullet, despite your love for Stroman and the control the team has over him, due to what that offer did now and over the next 2-3 years?

Obviously, the other team would have to value Stroman as a potential Ace and not be in a position of contention and willing to deal with Stro's injury this season.


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Nothing. I trade Stroman for nothing, because it would be suicidal.

[Sifu]

Stroman is the type you trade for, not trade away. If things continue to putter along like this in July, I would advocate trading the vets for top prospects. Trade them all. Jose x2, Dickey, Buerhle, EE.

Keep Martin and Donaldson.

Realign to compete at elite levels in two years time with Norris Hoffman Hutch Strong Osuna Castro and Sanchez forming an elite pitching core at low cost.

[dagger]

Stroman is the type you trade for, not trade away. If things continue to putter along like this in July, I would advocate trading the vets for top prospects. Trade them all. Jose x2, Dickey, Buerhle, EE.

Keep Martin and Donaldson.

Realign to compete at elite levels in two years time with Norris Hoffman Hutch Strong Osuna Castro and Sanchez forming an elite pitching core at low cost.

That's pretty much my feeling. How long are we going to march along with a core that is insufficient? Let's face it, they can pound the Dickens out of second rate pitchers, but throw a good team's #1 or #2 at them, and they struggle to scratch out a couple of hits. Individually, they have value, but I question whether as a batting order, they can do much better than they have done the past two seasons.

[dagger]

Given his injury and the closing Jays window on their elite bats, what is the minimum pitching offer you would accept this year in a deal involving Stroman?

Consider the control the team has on him
Consider his talent
Consider what's out there
Consider that this window of opportunity to take advantage of this incredible offence does have an end date
Consider that if the window is 2-3 years then him missing most of this year is him missing 50-33% of the contention window.

What would be the minimum offer for you to bite the bullet, despite your love for Stroman and the control the team has over him, due to what that offer did now and over the next 2-3 years?

Obviously, the other team would have to value Stroman as a potential Ace and not be in a position of contention and willing to deal with Stro's injury this season.


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Nothing. I trade Stroman for nothing, because it would be suicidal.

Trading this guy would be suicidal, too

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ShiDavidi/status/598988977207578624[/tweet]

[torontoaces04]

Trading this guy would be suicidal, too

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ShiDavidi/status/598988977207578624[/tweet]

Unless we get a stud like Duquette back, of course.

[Michael Bradley]

Stroman is the type you trade for, not trade away. If things continue to putter along like this in July, I would advocate trading the vets for top prospects. Trade them all. Jose x2, Dickey, Buerhle, EE.

Keep Martin and Donaldson.

Realign to compete at elite levels in two years time with Norris Hoffman Hutch Strong Osuna Castro and Sanchez forming an elite pitching core at low cost.

Agreed. I've said before, this team does not require a rebuild. They have a superstar in Donaldson who is locked up for three more years after this one (possibly more if they can extend him), and if they start moving the pre-2015 vets, then Martin becomes the only big contract left. As long he's framing well and a league average hitter, he'll be fine for what he's making (albeit overpaid). If you can trade the vets (Bautista, Edwin, Reyes, Dickey, Buehrle, even Cecil) for players that can round out the 2016-beyond roster, then a quick retool is doable with the right mind in place (i.e. not AA).

The part we disagree on is depending on young pitching. The team needs at least 2-3 SP's after Stroman and Hutchison if they plan on competing next season, and those SP's better not be internal prospects. Even if they have to go the Royals route by overpaying for Volquez types, that's better than starting the season with youngsters.

It will hurt trading Bautista and Edwin. Two stars with severely underpaid contracts and the team still couldn't do anything with them. Just add them to the list with Delgado, Halladay, etc.