Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[closg00]

There's no way either Grunfeld or Wittman get fired this offseason. Leonsis said they'd achieved their goals. You don't fire people who reach the goals you've established.

It was a low-bar....and one can dream can't they? I will have my Tums ready on draft night.

[dckingsfan]

NBA All-Rookie First Team: Andrew Wiggins, Nikola Mirotic, Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton, Jordan Clarkson

[FAH1223]

NBA All-Rookie First Team: Andrew Wiggins, Nikola Mirotic, Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton, Jordan Clarkson

Cash.

[hands11]

NBA All-Rookie First Team: Andrew Wiggins, Nikola Mirotic, Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton, Jordan Clarkson

It wounder how things would have worked out differently for the Wizards if they drafted him.

He most likely isn't on that list because he wouldn't have played much. He got mins on a crap team instead so good for him.

With Wall and A Miller here, he would be been riding the bench. Then maybe the Wizards would have keep A Miller and just used Clarkson some more. This year they would be going into the season without Sessions but with Clarkson who wouldn't be nearly as developed as he is. Or would they still have traded for Sessions.

Not sure that's a better team for 2015 without Sessions. They would be looking for a FA vet PG to back up Wall still.

Instead, we have Session already and can draft Tyus Jones or Cameron Payne if they want. Or they can use the pick on Wood and just bring back Bynum as the 3rd PG.

I wanted them to draft Clarkson and I can see how it could work out. It would make going after Wood or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson a lot more clear. And if they drafted Muscala or Ryan Anderson they would have a young S4.

Jordan Clarkson landed in a good spot for himself to get minutes so he could develop and make a name for himself. Wizard are in a totally different place then the Lakers.

No one ever claimed EG to be efficient but they have managed to assemble a good team that can still get better. I think what bothers people most is, it always seems like the next problem to fix was something we could have already addressed. But then there are always future opportunities to many didn't see to fix those things while the team has continued to get better.

[dckingsfan]

Clarkson would have received minutes early because Miller was playing so poorly. Not drafting Clarkson was a mistake on many fronts. And yes, EG is VERY inefficient.

[FAH1223]

Clarkson would have gotten minutes. We have a hole at backup SG as well. Clarkson can play on or off the ball.

Kobe Bryant has had high praise for the kid and it is warranted.

Clarkson was on my list for that pick. According to J. Michael at CSN, all the Wiz options were off the board (Jarnell Stokes, Spencer Dinwiddie, Johnny O'Bryant and Dwight Powell). Which is horrible that they will not draft best player available.

I mean, Grunfeld has hit on a couple 2nd round picks once upon a time. It's unbelievable that he drafted Michael Redd in that awful 2000 draft and I liked the Blatche pick in 2005.

[hands11]

Clarkson would have gotten minutes. We have a hole at backup SG as well. Clarkson can play on or off the ball.

Kobe Bryant has had high praise for the kid and it is warranted.

Clarkson was on my list for that pick. According to J. Michael at CSN, all the Wiz options were off the board (Jarnell Stokes, Spencer Dinwiddie, Johnny O'Bryant and Dwight Powell). Which is horrible that they will not draft best player available.

I mean, Grunfeld has hit on a couple 2nd round picks once upon a time. It's unbelievable that he drafted Michael Redd in that awful 2000 draft and I liked the Blatche pick in 2005.

Yeah, but he is getting the most important part right. And that's what's most important.

Wall, Beal and now Otto. And getting them playoff experience. Now all three have been to the 2nd round twice. And that is in large part to them having so many vets around them to mentor them and produce on the court to get them there. That 2nd round experience is huge for those three. Specially so early in their careers. Beal only knows 1 year on not being in the playoffs and into the 2nd round at that. Otto knows nothing but 2nd round playoffs. And getting that far has only pissed Wall and Beal off more because they want to go farther.

Compare that to guys like Cousins or Love.

And besides straight up amnestying Dray ( I wanted them to hold onto his a little longer to trade him ) they cleaned up mistakes pretty well. They lined up Otto knowing TA could walk a FA while still keeping 2016 in site. Okafor and a late first turned into Gortat who opened Wall's game up to PnR. And that started from Gils worst in the league contract turned into Lewis turned into TA and Okafor. They turned McGee and Nick into Nene and now after being here several years its time to clean that up.

All the while, max investment in Wall and Beal and now Otto who has had TA and Paul to teach him his first two years.

They are now off the cycle of institutional failure that is a hard cycle to break. They now have institutional knowledge and talent in key young players and as a team and organization. Adding Paul this last year was huge for that. I really hope he comes back for one more year of that. He has lots more he can contribute and disseminate. This team is not ready to not have The Truth. He adds so much experience and HOF swag.

Their reputation is repaired regarding attracting FAs now as well. From getting players in trades that refused to play here to Paul Pierce choosing them. That's a big shift. Hell, it was just two offseasons ago they couldn't attract anything better then injured players no one wanted.

They are in a nice positions. Kind of like a basketball team with men on first and third. They can sit back and kept banging singles and doubles to generate runs.. Or... if a fastball come right down the middle, they can go for the bases clearing home run.

And its just like the 5-6 inning. They can do that this year and next year.

5 year rebuild. 2 back to back 2nd round playoff appearances. A series sweep against a higher ranked team. 3 young core pieces. 2016 cap space. And they have their picks.

Its been a successful rebuild. And I like the players.

[closg00]

More Grunfeld apologetics. At the end of the day, Grunfeld trashes assets, makes too-many FA mistakes, and he can't draft. Another GM would have had us playing for the championship already.... or closer to it. Someone else could have done better, guys on this board could have done better than EG.


#FireErnie ~ Because he believed Stephen Curry couldn't help us and Jan Vesely could.

[nate33]

I gotta say, Hands11 makes a pretty compelling argument. EG was trash for a long time, but he has steered the ship very well over the past 3 years. If he can land a starting-caliber stretch four in this draft, I might become a believer.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I gotta say, Hands11 makes a pretty compelling argument. EG was trash for a long time, but he has steered the ship very well over the past 3 years. If he can land a starting-caliber stretch four in this draft, I might become a believer.

It would take more for me than 46 wins and a 2nd round exit in a historically weak conference for me to think Grunfeld had become good at his job. Especially when he had to spend so many long-term player acquisition assets to assemble old, temporary parts to do it. For me, it's worth keeping in mind the good fortune of the Wizards' geography. Same team in the West probably wouldn't make the playoffs. Now, it's true that they don't have to compete in the West, and the Wizards can't control their schedule, and all that kinda stuff. But, being an average team in a weak conference isn't much of an achievement.

[Ruzious]

Yeah, being a little above average in a historically bad conference is not my idea of a payoff for being awful for years and years. The Wiz still need to make several moves to become an elite team. If/when that happens, then EG will deserve some kudos. His positive moves are what anyone reasonably knowledgable fan could have done. Have the Wiz and Clips switch conferences - and EG would be considered a failure by everyone.

[Kanyewest]

My expectations of EG are still low. I still question whether he can draft well and I haven't agreed with his philosophy of selling second round picks for cash. I also wouldn't want him in charge of hiring the next head coach given how Flip Saunders turned out.

I still would have Washington making the playoffs in the West over New Orleans, especially since Washington shut it down and rested their players over the final games of the season.

I will give EG credit for constructing a roster that seems to play better in the postseason then the regular season and you could make the case that they could have made it to the conference finals with a healthy Wall throughout the season.

[Kanyewest]

Yeah, being a little above average in a historically bad conference is not my idea of a payoff for being awful for years and years. The Wiz still need to make several moves to become an elite team. If/when that happens, then EG will deserve some kudos. His positive moves are what anyone reasonably knowledgable fan could have done. Have the Wiz and Clips switch conferences - and EG would be considered a failure by everyone.

Although oddly enough, out of all the GMs in the 2nd round, I think Doc is the worst

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall, Beal, and Porter were all top of the lottery picks.

They have had good veterans around them. If I just want to ignore everything before 2013, I'd say that EG is A OK.

That Clarkson kid is pretty good. But I guess cash was needed. Those of you who liked Muscala over Rice Jr or Wolters were more right than EG and I.

If you forget Vesely being picked #6 and the pick to Denver; I guess you can say that BAE turned into Miller and now Sessions is okay.

Temple, Gooden, Humphries, Butler, and Pierce were all good moves.

Webster...not so much.

I'm not an EG hater because I have been through the worst-case--the pick that could have been Steph Curry for oat bran.

EG has come light years better in the past two years. He's okay...I guess. If I rationalize long enough...

[FAH1223]

Yeah, being a little above average in a historically bad conference is not my idea of a payoff for being awful for years and years. The Wiz still need to make several moves to become an elite team. If/when that happens, then EG will deserve some kudos. His positive moves are what anyone reasonably knowledgable fan could have done. Have the Wiz and Clips switch conferences - and EG would be considered a failure by everyone.

Although oddly enough, out of all the GMs in the 2nd round, I think Doc is the worst

Yeah. Since Doc got there he's traded assets for trash.

[closg00]

Grunfeld trashes the assets for cash, then later he is looking around the scrap heap for players to fill the roster. There's a reason why his peers give him no respect after a decade with the Wizards.


#FireErnie ~ Because he believed Stephen Curry couldn't help us and Jan Vesely could.

[DCZards]

Yup, EG has somehow put together a competitive team that has advanced to the second round two years in a row on the strength of a couple of up-and-coming young guards. A Zards team that with the right draft pick and a quality free agent or two, along with the continued emergence of Porter, is poised to get even better.

A lot of assets have been wasted by EG along the way, but in this “what have you done for more lately” world, EG is looking pretty decent right about now.

No doubt Grunfeld has made some boneheaded moves, most notably the decision to trade the fifth pick in the 2009 draft for Miller/Foye (although I think that was mostly Abe Pollin’s call) and drafting Jan Vesley, which was the low point of his term as the Zards GM, imo. And he has to regret not keeping Clarkson. But I can’t really blame him there when pretty much every other NBA also whiffed on Clarkson. I don’t think anyone expected him to blow up like he did.

But the Okafor/Ariza trade was a smart move that helped to establish a winning and professional culture both on and off the court. That trade also led to landing Gortat, who will be a cornerstone for the next several years---and at a good price.

EG also get props for signing Gooden, Hump and Butler, all of whom made significant contributions last season. And, while aided by Sam Cassell, EG gets a gold star for the Pierce signing.

The move I don’t think EG gets enough credit for was signing Wall to a max contract after his third season, when he could have waited another season before offering JW max money. I liked the early signing because it eliminated any cloud that could have hung over Wall’s fourth year and sent the unmistakable message to the young PG that he was their guy. That signing was the MAJOR tone setter for the future of the franchise.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I was very against max deal for Wall early.

EG got that right.

I was wrong.

[payitforward]

NBA All-Rookie First Team: Andrew Wiggins, Nikola Mirotic, Nerlens Noel, Elfrid Payton, Jordan Clarkson

It wounder how things would have worked out differently for the Wizards if they drafted him.

Not the right question to ask. Not at all. In one season? Probably not particularly differently. Long-term? You only get better if you acquire good prospects and develop them.

He most likely isn't on that list because he wouldn't have played much. He got mins on a crap team instead so good for him.

I hear this kind of stuff all the time. Including from you -- before this, you said something similar about Nerlens Noel.

This is in the same arena with statements like "you don't know how good Noel is, because he played w/ a crap team so he got to shine. Wouldn't have happened elsewhere." And the similar, but reverse statement which I remember reading all the time about Kawhi Leonard: "he looks so good because he's playing on such a good team."

So you can't know if a guy is good when he plays for a bad team, and you can't know when he plays for a good team either! (Note: not claiming that *you* said the latter part, Hands -- but you get what I mean).

Actually, players are good because they are good, and they are bad if they are bad. Good players are good on good teams and bad teams. Ditto bad players -- bad on a good team and bad on a bad team too?

Can you (or anyone) cite an exception? Sure. There are exceptions to every rule. But they are few and far between in this case.

With Wall and A Miller here, he would be been riding the bench. Then maybe the Wizards would have keep A Miller and just used Clarkson some more. This year they would be going into the season without Sessions but with Clarkson who wouldn't be nearly as developed as he is. Or would they still have traded for Sessions.

Not sure that's a better team for 2015 without Sessions.

First off, Clarkson is a combo guard -- not a pure point. And, at the beginning of the season we played Garrett Temple a lot. If Clarkson had been with us and killing it in practice, he would have gotten minutes. He's good, so it's quite likely he'd have produced in those minutes -- that leads to more minutes.

I'm sure we would have kept Miller, you are right. But if you really think we'd be a less good team w/ Clarkson instead of Sessions, you're dreaming. Would we be better w/ Clarkson in game 1 of the season? Who knows. Would we better long-term -- i.e. a better team for the season and several to come? Uh huh, we sure would. We'd have a significant young asset to develop. Either he plays for us long term, or we trade him -- he is valuable.

They would be looking for a FA vet PG to back up Wall still.

Instead, we have Session already and can draft Tyus Jones or Cameron Payne if they want. Or they can use the pick on Wood and just bring back Bynum as the 3rd PG.

Whoa there, partner -- now you are saying that bringing back Bynum is as good as having a young and obviously very gifted Jordan Clarkson? You can't possibly believe that.

I wanted them to draft Clarkson...

Yes, you did. Which makes this justifying narrative all the harder to understand.

Jordan Clarkson landed in a good spot for himself to get minutes so he could develop and make a name for himself. Wizard are in a totally different place then the Lakers.

So what? How about if the Spurs had drafted him? They'd have a terrific young prospect who'd likely wind up essential to the team's future. Take a look at their roster. It's full of guys like Clarkson. And if we'd drafted him, we'd have that terrific young prospect.

No one ever claimed EG to be efficient but they have managed to assemble a good team that can still get better.

You seem to think Ernie has "managed to assemble a good team" -- huh? Sorry, that's not correct. The Washington Wizards, compared across the 30 teams of the NBA are about an average team. Mediocre. Nothing to brag about.

Because we play in the weaker conference, we play more games vs. weaker teams. If you normalize our record so that it's against the same number of Eastern and Western Conference teams, we much closer to a .500 team.

That's the definition of average. It's mediocre. No better.

The team did take a jump last year. This year they were about as good as last year -- in the regular season and in the playoffs. So, we haven't exactly demonstrated that we can "still get better." Now, maybe you mean if KD lands here -- a pipe dream. Yes, wherever superman lands, he saves the day. We have a 1 in 30 chance that he'll come here, and if he does we will improve.

All the same of course, it's more fun to be a Wizards fan in 2015 than it was in 2009 or 2010 or 2011 or 2012. If you think that's achieving something, you're welcome to it. Maybe you've never had the chance to be a fan of a team that actually excelled. For as long as Ernie runs the Wizards, they won't be the team to give you that chance.

[closg00]

I was very against max deal for Wall early.

EG got that right.

I was wrong.

EG almost always pay's early - Maynor, Webster, Blatche, even Gortat. In this ^ case it he did get it right.