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Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes, I believe it is time for EG to go now.
57
64%
2) Ted should let him go at the end of the season.
21
24%
3) No, Ted needs to give him more time..(DESPITE THE FACT ERNIE HAS BEEN GM SINCE 2003 AND WASHINGTON HAS THE THIRD WORST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE IN THAT SPAN)
11
12%
 
Total votes: 89

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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1581 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 4:02 am

nate33 wrote:I gotta say, Hands11 makes a pretty compelling argument. EG was trash for a long time, but he has steered the ship very well over the past 3 years. If he can land a starting-caliber stretch four in this draft, I might become a believer.


Seems the most important decisions they made was around investing fully in Wall and them rightfully selecting Beal. Remember, they could have selected Cousins another great physically skilled players that needed an investment in maturing properly.. Cousins.

Look at the path Kyrie was on before LeBron came home.

Wall was a really raw young talent with amazing physical abilities that needed great mentoring to mature properly. It was not a given he would develop into the player and person he is today. The team gets a lot of create for their decisions to foster his development. Washington did much better with Wall then SAC has made out with Cousins.

The Wizards made huge investments in Wall. They made a clear decision back when they started bringing in players like Nene, Okafor and Trevor A, that everyone wasn't going to make it. Everyone isn't equally important. Everything become about building around Wall and getting him to the playoffs. Specially once they landed Beal who was the perfect pick to go next to him. Not just because of his shooting but his personality, drive and clean God centered family demeanor. I think those two have complimented, pushed, and grown as young men together.

Wall struck me as someone that could go the way like a Gil or AI. Super talented players that didn't mature properly. But instead, because of the players and coaching they have put around him, he has matured in a much better professional mature direction in my book. Now they added Paul which was an amazingly good move for Wall, Beal and Otto and even the other vets. Just a great acquisition for the franchise as a whole. But you don't just get a Paul Pierce after sucking for as long as the Wizards did without having done a lot of right things first.

Anyway, about Wall, from what I recall, Wall's upbringing was more like Gils or a Mike Tyson. He had a rough go of things. Father in prison and died of cancer when he was young. That's tough stuff to deal with. Putting him in a no non sense professional environment where he was both supported and held accountable was really important to get the best out of him and develop him into WallStar. And oddly enough, Randy was actually a really good coach for him in style and demeanor. Randy is more like the stern father type that makes you do yard work and eat your veggies. His all in focus on defense has really helped Wall become a complete two way player. Adding Gortat helped him learn PnR. It been a 5 year process getting that young raw John Wall to become the players he is today.

Its actually turned out about as well as we could have hoped for Wall. He easily could have become on of the petulant brat spoiled NBA star types. Instead, he is well on his way to becoming a legit super talented mature focused NBA professional superstar man. Which is why I really want Paul Peirce back one more year. Paul can continue to mentor him in that direction. Beal and Otto as well.

You get that part right, and you have set your franchise up for years of success. That's stuff team like SAS have. Its hard to get but once you have it, its gold. I hope this team continues to bring in players like Truth after he leaves. Even if they are off the bench. I would love to have a year of an old Dirk here at some point. Keep in mind. If Paul played one more year, when he leaves, Wall will be only 26, Beal just 23 and Otto 23. They will still be very young men. Always good to have HOF vets around to mentor super talented players. Even players like Rasual are important. Having A Miller was great for Wall. And I'm sure Sam helped a lot as well.

Point is. They went all in on Wall to help turn his raw talent into who he is becoming. It was by no means a given he would be who he is today.

And since this is a league of superstars. Getting that right was HUGE.

And you know what's sick.. Wall and Beal aren't even all the way their yet and Otto is just getting started. Paul one more year would be huge. He can guide them there. He might even be able to set them on course to be future HOFers themselves. But to get their, he has to have an opportunity to continue to mold their minds. That what separates great talents from super stars/HOFers.

Come on back Paul. You got a little more work to do. Besides, we got some ECF games to play and it you get them there....

Why not use ?
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1582 » by Kanyewest » Wed May 20, 2015 4:05 am

I wish Grunfeld would sign someone like Shaun Livingston.

Oh wait....
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Re: 

Post#1583 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 4:21 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Wall, Beal, and Porter were all top of the lottery picks.

They have had good veterans around them. If I just want to ignore everything before 2013, I'd say that EG is A OK.

That Clarkson kid is pretty good. But I guess cash was needed. :( Those of you who liked Muscala over Rice Jr or Wolters were more right than EG and I. :(

If you forget Vesely being picked #6 and the pick to Denver; I guess you can say that BAE turned into Miller and now Sessions is okay.

Temple, Gooden, Humphries, Butler, and Pierce were all good moves.

Webster...not so much. :(

I'm not an EG hater because I have been through the worst-case--the pick that could have been Steph Curry for oat bran.

EG has come light years better in the past two years. He's okay...I guess. If I rationalize long enough...


Rationalize or think rationally ?

Bottom line. Since Ted took over, they rebuilt the team. And in 5 years they have been to the 2nd round twice. And had Wall not gotten injured, like'y to the ECFs.

They have 3 top 3 picks that look like they just might be pretty good.
Wall is looking like he is on the edge of being a Top 10 maybe Top 5 in the league.
Beal ... we will see next year. That young man looks like he could be everything we dreamed of as well.
Otto.. you tell me. kid is active Go Go Gadget Porter. 8-10 rebounds as a starter looks doable for him. 3 balls Amazing D. LOL
They hopefully retain a HOF TRUTH
They have a pretty talented center who is mobile, pretty strong and one hell of a PnR player. And has a great bald head.
And their picks
And Cap space in 2016 and TPEs
and rumors that one of the best in the league might want to come home..
Seems like just about any good player wouldn't mind joining the House of Guards who some project as the best future back court.

2nd round picks. Player I or you wanted instead. Inefficient. Sure...all that is true.

But none of that erases the above stuff. You don't have to rationalize anything. You just have to objectively view things.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1584 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 4:37 am

DCZards wrote:Yup, EG has somehow put together a competitive team that has advanced to the second round two years in a row on the strength of a couple of up-and-coming young guards. A Zards team that with the right draft pick and a quality free agent or two, along with the continued emergence of Porter, is poised to get even better.

A lot of assets have been wasted by EG along the way, but in this “what have you done for more lately” world, EG is looking pretty decent right about now.

No doubt Grunfeld has made some boneheaded moves, most notably the decision to trade the fifth pick in the 2009 draft for Miller/Foye (although I think that was mostly Abe Pollin’s call) and drafting Jan Vesley, which was the low point of his term as the Zards GM, imo. And he has to regret not keeping Clarkson. But I can’t really blame him there when pretty much every other NBA also whiffed on Clarkson. I don’t think anyone expected him to blow up like he did.

But the Okafor/Ariza trade was a smart move that helped to establish a winning and professional culture both on and off the court. That trade also led to landing Gortat, who will be a cornerstone for the next several years---and at a good price.

EG also get props for signing Gooden, Hump and Butler, all of whom made significant contributions last season. And, while aided by Sam Cassell, EG gets a gold star for the Pierce signing.

The move I don’t think EG gets enough credit for was signing Wall to a max contract after his third season, when he could have waited another season before offering JW max money. I liked the early signing because it eliminated any cloud that could have hung over Wall’s fourth year and sent the unmistakable message to the young PG that he was their guy. That signing was the MAJOR tone setter for the future of the franchise.


It was an important move. Specially after the rough start Wall had.
It did several things. It showed their continued commitment. It allowed him and the team to focus on basketball. And it allowed them to go into the offseason with Wall in their pocket looking forward to whatever other moves they needed to make with whoever they were looking to sign know Wall was going to be there.

But as I point out often, its never just about EG with a lot of this stuff. Ted had a lot to do with that Wall signing and the plan for how to rebuild. Its Ted and EG, not just EG.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1585 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 5:06 am

PIFF

I have been a fans of lots of good teams. I am a sports fan. My world of sports doesn't begin and end with the Wizards though they are the team I follow the most closely in recent history. I have follow lots of successful teams though.

As for other DC teams.. Yeah.. well there was this really great franchise once called the Washington Redskins. Followed them like I do the Wizards now. So yes. I got to see one of the best run franchises in the NFL get it done to the tune of 3 Super Bowls over many years. And believe it or not, once upon a time, the Os were really good. I also watch the Bullets in some title games. They even won one. Oh.. and you know when the Skins started to suck ? When they lost one of the best owners in the NFL and Synder took over. A owner that always wanted a quick fix. And owner with a crappy time line and crappy plan. Os.. yeep.. they also got a POS owner and went on the suck many years to follow.

So its your view now that the Wizards have no chance to get to the ECFs as long as EG is the GM ? I guess you just missed the playoffs this year.

Guess you will chance your tune again when you project them to win 58 games like you did this year.

Dude. You are just a closest optimist. You bitch and complain and then project 58 wins. You will always have a built in excuse for them not making progress because you can always say no ring, no good but then you project 58 wins ? Which is it ?

Me, I hope they have another successful offseason. The East should be tougher next year. Nothing is ever guaranteed. Look what just happened to Wall. So me.. I enjoys the wins while they happen. Specially when they are sweeping teams like TOR which I called by the way. That was a lot of fun to watch. So was taking game one against 60 win ATL in ATL. Just to bad Wall got hurt. Beating CHI last year was a lot of fun as well. Called that in 6. They did it in 5.

Again. Hope they have another good off season. I hope Paul comes back.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1586 » by FAH1223 » Wed May 20, 2015 3:25 pm

All of this rationalizing for EG is #SoWizards

He still sucks. We really going to give him credit for not screwing up on 3 lotto picks? Really?

The throwing away of picks and signing old players to fill out a roster is short sighted and shows no asset management.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1587 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 20, 2015 4:04 pm

That is the problem - we were a top 13-18 team this year... we were in the east. If Wall didn't get hurt we might have squeezed into the ECF. But that still makes us a middling team. If we were in the west, we don't make the playoffs.

So, all you can do is enjoy the ride.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1588 » by queridiculo » Wed May 20, 2015 5:46 pm

Another case of people catching the post season high, same as last year.

Things that haven't changed since then, or during any year of Grunfeld's tenure:

- lack of quality and depth being a key factor for why the team underachieved and got eliminated in post season play
- sustainability of near term success and ability to build on said "success"
- misallocation of resources
- talent evaluation

This organization is heading nowhere with Grunfeld at the helm.

Unless of course you're all about mediocre to average.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1589 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 6:28 pm

FAH1223 wrote:All of this rationalizing for EG is #SoWizards

He still sucks. We really going to give him credit for not screwing up on 3 lotto picks? Really?

The throwing away of picks and signing old players to fill out a roster is short sighted and shows no asset management.


So let me get this straight.

Anyone who posts anything about what they did right and where they actually are today and what opportunities are in front of them... those people are rationalizing ? Even when they acknowledge the things that went wrong including the inefficiency of them getting there ?

No. That is not what we are doing. What we are doing is giving a more accurate accounting on the situation then those who only focus on what went wrong. Those are the people rationalizing.

No one is excusing anything. The PG story along makes ones head spin. 4 years of it. From Crawford to Mack and AJ to Maynor. Temple. Mustafa, Pargo. The Borbosa and Kendall Marshall stuff where we paid them to not be here and we needed what both offered. Glen Rice.. yikes. No Muscala or Ryan Kelly. No Jeff Withey because EG had a flash back brain fart and drafted Rice instead. But if I recall correctly. People here liked Rice. And no Jae Crowder but Thomas instead.

All that happened. Totally inefficient. The revolving door of PGs was insane.

But here is the thing. There are lots of NBA quality NBA players in the NBA. :o

There is always another one right around the corner. What there are very few of are NBA developed core playoff level players and HOF players that can still contribute. Top 50 players or even more narrow.. top 5 in their position. And there are only so many active HOF type that can still contribute. Your TDs, PPs, Dirk types.

You can get a ton wrong if you get the core right. Only 5 players on the court at one time and usually about 8-9 in a rotation. If you find 2 core young studs in your starting 5 (Wall/Beal) and now maybe Otto along with a Gortat and a PP. Well. That can set you up pretty nicely to fill out the team with all those other NBA level talents that are in the NBA.

That is not rationalizing. That's just THE TRUTH.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1590 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 20, 2015 6:36 pm

He still sucks... notwithstanding your rant :)
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1591 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 6:54 pm

dckingsfan wrote:That is the problem - we were a top 13-18 team this year... we were in the east. If Wall didn't get hurt we might have squeezed into the ECF. But that still makes us a middling team. If we were in the west, we don't make the playoffs.

So, all you can do is enjoy the ride.


I keep reading that but its in no way a fact. Hell, for all we know, if we were in the West, they might have adapted to playing the S4 line ups sooner and been even better.

I'm not convinced DAL or NO are better then WAS this year or that they will be next year.

MEM, POR, DAL and even NO could all look like very different teams. We have to wait and see.

MEM might lose Gasol
POR might lost LMA
DAL has 37 yr old Dirk and Chandler Parsons.. they could lose Tyson and Ellis and Rondo. They have very little signed.
NO has Davis which is huge but are still paying Gordon 15M and might lose Asik

No telling what happens out West next year.

People can point to the Wizards not having more young talent outside of Wall, Beal and Otto. OK. But that ignores they seems to be able to attract better and better talent because of the talent the have. That's huge. If they land a KD. That's way bigger then drafting Crowders or the Muscala's of the NBA. And with there more established core, they can groom young talent better now. Look at Otto.

Its so important that you become on of those franchises. Ones where big name players want to play. So far, we have landed The Truth. That's a good start. That's one. From Wester and Big Al, to Gooden to The Truth. Thats a positive trend.

Now they have to prove they can do that type of things again. And Wall and Beal seem to be the bait that will attract those types.

There are 5 positions. Maybe 6 if you count hybrid S4 types or 6th man utility type as a group. Top 5 x 5 or 6 positions is 25-30 players. And only a fraction of them are available any given year and worth getting. If you are in the game to get one of them, you are in the game. And that at least appears to be where the Wizards are. You build your core. Then there are lots of options to fill it out if you can keep your cap right. There are lots of good NBA players in the NBA to fill those roles.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1592 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 6:59 pm

queridiculo wrote:Another case of people catching the post season high, same as last year.

Things that haven't changed since then, or during any year of Grunfeld's tenure:

- lack of quality and depth being a key factor for why the team underachieved and got eliminated in post season play
- sustainability of near term success and ability to build on said "success"
- misallocation of resources
- talent evaluation

This organization is heading nowhere with Grunfeld at the helm.

Unless of course you're all about mediocre to average.


Yeep. Been reading that kind of thing for 5 years now. And things just keep getting better.

The first two things you listed are bunk. And number is a mixed bag. #3 is valid but ultimately not as important as the big picture of where they have gotten.

Inefficiently rebuilding a team that is with in a few moves of title contender is still reaching the ultimate goal. Efficiency is not the determining factor. Reaching the goal is.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1593 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 20, 2015 7:11 pm

hands11 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:That is the problem - we were a top 13-18 team this year... we were in the east. If Wall didn't get hurt we might have squeezed into the ECF. But that still makes us a middling team. If we were in the west, we don't make the playoffs.

So, all you can do is enjoy the ride.


I keep reading that but its in no way a fact. Hell, for all we know, if we were in the West, they might have adapted to playing the S4 line ups sooner and been even better.


We might have - and we still wouldn't have made the playoffs. We were 5th in the East. Add 3-5 games at a minimum for the teams moving from the west to east. Sorry - that's just where we are - regardless of obfuscation. 14th at best...
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1594 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 20, 2015 7:14 pm

hands11 wrote:Reaching the goal is.

And we have been very good at getting to be an average team - mission accomplished :devil:
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1595 » by closg00 » Wed May 20, 2015 7:24 pm

queridiculo wrote:Another case of people catching the post season high, same as last year.

Things that haven't changed since then, or during any year of Grunfeld's tenure:

- lack of quality and depth being a key factor for why the team underachieved and got eliminated in post season play
- sustainability of near term success and ability to build on said "success"
- misallocation of resources
- talent evaluation

This organization is heading nowhere with Grunfeld at the helm.

Unless of course you're all about mediocre to average.


We are coming down from it and are now thinking "OMG, what will he do on draft night this time"
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1596 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 10:08 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
hands11 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:That is the problem - we were a top 13-18 team this year... we were in the east. If Wall didn't get hurt we might have squeezed into the ECF. But that still makes us a middling team. If we were in the west, we don't make the playoffs.

So, all you can do is enjoy the ride.


I keep reading that but its in no way a fact. Hell, for all we know, if we were in the West, they might have adapted to playing the S4 line ups sooner and been even better.


We might have - and we still wouldn't have made the playoffs. We were 5th in the East. Add 3-5 games at a minimum for the teams moving from the west to east. Sorry - that's just where we are - regardless of obfuscation. 14th at best...


If only things in life only worked that simply. What you state as fact is speculation. Which is all either of us is doing. The difference is. I know I am speculating and I am framing it that way while you think you are talking facts but you aren't.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1597 » by hands11 » Wed May 20, 2015 10:29 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
hands11 wrote:Reaching the goal is.

And we have been very good at getting to be an average team - mission accomplished


:nonono:

Dude. Try to have an adult conversation. Your endless pouting and negativity is tiring.

I have read that same garbage throughout the entire rebuild. And to date. Its been pretty off. Mind you, it been accurate sometimes. Specially regarding some individual moves which I have touched on. But its been off regarding big picture progress and the things they have done right. If you can't acknowledge those things, then you aren't being honest.

I doubt you projected them making the 2nd round two years in a row.
I doubt you projected them sweeping TOR. You probably didn't project them beating CHI either though I don't know that and I'm not looking it up.

If you can't acknowledge the good things that have happened and you can't see the opportunities that lie ahead, then you have been and still are missing what is going on and I have have no idea why you even follow the team. Seems they bring you no joy.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1598 » by dckingsfan » Thu May 21, 2015 12:51 am

hands11 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
hands11 wrote:Reaching the goal is.

And we have been very good at getting to be an average team - mission accomplished


:nonono:

Dude. Try to have an adult conversation. Your endless pouting and negativity is tiring.


This coming from Pollyanna - remember that I talked you down a couple of wins :)
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1599 » by hands11 » Thu May 21, 2015 1:17 am

dckingsfan wrote:
hands11 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And we have been very good at getting to be an average team - mission accomplished


:nonono:

Dude. Try to have an adult conversation. Your endless pouting and negativity is tiring.


- remember that I talked you down a couple of wins :)


You did ?

And here I thought I actually went through the schedule.. came up with 52 and then rounded down.

Pretty sure my prediction post said pretty much that.

My mistake was not factoring in enough for Regular Session Randy.

So regarding EG. I wonder when we will hear something. Draft is mid next month and as things stand, I think EGs contract is done right now.

Exit interviews already happened. Gotta think they say something soon. Though last year they never made a big deal of it. Ted had a secret option year he extended. Maybe there is a secret secret 2nd year option year.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2) 

Post#1600 » by dckingsfan » Thu May 21, 2015 1:25 am

hands11 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
hands11 wrote:
:nonono:

Dude. Try to have an adult conversation. Your endless pouting and negativity is tiring.


This coming from Pollyanna - remember that I talked you down a couple of wins :)


You did ?

And here I thought I actually went through the schedule.. came up with 52 and then rounded down.

Pretty sure my prediction post said pretty much that.

My mistake was not factoring in enough for Regular Session Randy.


Ah, and I thought Randy was part of the team :) - Didn't factor in enough Miller

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