All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#501 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 20, 2015 11:37 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Spoiler:
My argument is based flatly off watching what happened. I'm going to be that guy, but sometimes you really do have to watch the games. I know you're all in on plus/minus and really don't like Westbrook, but I'm running in circles trying to explain at this point. Every time I look at RAPM I'm finding that we're ultimately looking at a game and taking everything we want to see as fans and projecting it onto certain players, and I'm finding it bizarre that certain traits inherently have made players "good" or "bad". The board has suddenly proclaimed Davis better than Durant and Kawhi is a top 5 player, on the basis of a single metric.

In the end, Westbrook had a team in which the following happened, and I'd note all of this is affecting the numbers you're seeing:
1. Start the season, roster is 8 men deep.
2. He returns. Looks okay.
3. KD comes back, fantastic play for a few weeks, he goes out.
4. He looks fantastic for 2 months.
5. Adams, Roberson, and Collison go out while Perkins is traded for Kanter. The defense of the entire team is shot, completely wrecking any semblance of ability to use plus/minus effectively for defense.
6. Adams comes back, team looks amazing again.
7. Ibaka goes out, defense again shot.

So, in summary, Davis's team had actually more continuity w/o him than WB's. There's nothing plus/minus can tell me when the team missed this many key members for weeks on end and they never had a full lineup over 2 weeks. I'm all for the data, but in the end if I can't get any complete data, I need to use what happened and look at what would likely be inferred. Here's an image for games lost and impact (PO teams are green):

Image

Again, I realize you can't stand WB's game, but he had nothing to work with. Given the lack of continuity entirely and what he did, and the fact that according to everyone outside OKC, his coach was as incompetent or moreso than AD's, people just aren't giving credit.

And one final number, to emphasize....

Team games in which players were inactive:
OKC: 196
NOP: 98

Plus/minus can't work with that small a sample and be reliable, its like using it for the playoffs or other small samples early in the season.

I needed a rant. More coffee please this morning. :D

Edit (re-edited to 2 man lineups):

Lineup minutes for the most used 2 man lineups:

AD:
1915
1375
1320
1110
878

Westbrook:
1411
1228
998
980
778


Hey bondom, I'm sorry you made a quality post that people should read, but it seems problematic for me to answer broadly. I think I need to leave things be. The one thing I'll say is that I wouldn't have responded at all if you didn't use the exact phrase you did.

Doc, no problem. And sorry for the rant, caught me during my AM coffee at work. It just was sorta the highlight as to some of the issues I have w/ using plus/minus as an overarching single metric. Its flaws are definitely there to me and I think Westbrook's season, and others like it, are cases where its tough to quantify. If you had anything I'd gladly like to hear it, just was getting my POV out there. And please, don't take it as an attack, I really apologize if it was taken that way.


I'm cool if you're cool Bondom. :x
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#502 » by bondom34 » Wed May 20, 2015 11:40 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Hey bondom, I'm sorry you made a quality post that people should read, but it seems problematic for me to answer broadly. I think I need to leave things be. The one thing I'll say is that I wouldn't have responded at all if you didn't use the exact phrase you did.

Doc, no problem. And sorry for the rant, caught me during my AM coffee at work. It just was sorta the highlight as to some of the issues I have w/ using plus/minus as an overarching single metric. Its flaws are definitely there to me and I think Westbrook's season, and others like it, are cases where its tough to quantify. If you had anything I'd gladly like to hear it, just was getting my POV out there. And please, don't take it as an attack, I really apologize if it was taken that way.


I'm cool if you're cool Bondom. :x

:P

I'm good, just didn't want to come off as overly aggressive, respect your opinion, just wanted to back up mine.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#503 » by thizznation » Thu May 21, 2015 12:58 am

I give props to Bondom for challenging RAPM. Even though I believe in the metric we still need people to voice their opinions against it. It's dangerous when we all start sipping the kool aid with out thinking twice. (Ok that was a little dramatic but I think you guys know what I mean)
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#504 » by bondom34 » Thu May 21, 2015 1:26 am

thizznation wrote:I give props to Bondom for challenging RAPM. Even though I believe in the metric we still need people to voice their opinions against it. It's dangerous when we all start sipping the kool aid with out thinking twice. (Ok that was a little dramatic but I think you guys know what I mean)

FYI, thanks. I know I've disagreed w/ you in the past, but I do respect your opinion, as you've supported it in the past. I'm completely content to disagree w/ others, just so there's reasoning (I've tried to give my own). Props to you too.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#505 » by RSCD3_ » Thu May 21, 2015 4:17 pm

Credit to warriors fan Hamncheese

If the warriors beat the cavs in the finals...

Then curry will have beaten all the other All-NBA first team players

Davis
Gasol
Harden
James

Has that ever happened before?
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#506 » by Ballerhogger » Thu May 21, 2015 4:29 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:A certain part of me started laughing when josh smith hit three 3's like Of course this happens now
He's been in 49 playoff games beforehand and only made 2 or more threes in the 4th twice before that.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#507 » by Ballerhogger » Thu May 21, 2015 4:30 pm

My top 5 will be announced after the finals .
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#508 » by PaulieWal » Thu May 21, 2015 7:14 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:My top 5 will be announced after the finals .


What's your top 5 right now? Maybe it will spur some good discussion :). This thread would be no fun if we all waited until the Finals.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#509 » by colts18 » Thu May 21, 2015 8:12 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:Credit to warriors fan Hamncheese

If the warriors beat the cavs in the finals...

Then curry will have beaten all the other All-NBA first team players

Davis
Gasol
Harden
James

Has that ever happened before?

Dirk beat the following all-NBA players in 2011:

Aldridge
Kobe
Gasol
Westbrook
Durant
LeBron
Wade

7 out of the top 10 All-NBA players.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#510 » by Texas Chuck » Thu May 21, 2015 8:18 pm

colts18 wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:Credit to warriors fan Hamncheese

If the warriors beat the cavs in the finals...

Then curry will have beaten all the other All-NBA first team players

Davis
Gasol
Harden
James

Has that ever happened before?

Dirk beat the following all-NBA players in 2011:

Aldridge
Kobe
Gasol
Westbrook
Durant
LeBron
Wade

7 out of the top 10 All-NBA players.


well 6 of 9 really. Aldridge was 3rd team (STAT was 2nd) and of course Dirk was one of the ten.

But what's really impressive about that is in round 1 he beat a top 15 guy (meh whatever). Then in the last 3 rounds he beat teams that each had both a first and 2nd team guy.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#511 » by GSP » Thu May 21, 2015 11:26 pm

colts18 wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:Credit to warriors fan Hamncheese

If the warriors beat the cavs in the finals...

Then curry will have beaten all the other All-NBA first team players

Davis
Gasol
Harden
James

Has that ever happened before?

Dirk beat the following all-NBA players in 2011:

Aldridge
Kobe
Gasol
Westbrook
Durant
LeBron
Wade

7 out of the top 10 All-NBA players.

He did it with a much worse supporting cast than Steph, against much superior competition as the underdog in every series (except maybe Portland) and less significant injuries (I dont remember any major ones actually from the teams Dirk beat - Holiday, Reke Conley, Tony, Dwight, DMo, Bev all injured then if they play the Cavs too.....)
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#512 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 22, 2015 12:30 am

Ballerhogger wrote:My top 5 will be announced after the finals .


Just need to make sure this is clear to you and to everyone else:

Me counting your vote is contingent on your participation in the discussion. I'm not looking to be a jerk about it if people get busy for a while during the playoffs, and you certainly don't need to give your Top 5 ahead of time, but this is a message board and our stickied projects exist to generate message-based interactions. You should have an intent to share your thoughts and read others thoughts along the way if you want to join in, as that's what "joining in" really means.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#513 » by Jaivl » Fri May 22, 2015 12:33 am

Jaivl wrote:Right now,

#1 Curry
#2 Harden
#3 Paul
#4 James
#5 Davis

Still hasn't changed.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#514 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri May 22, 2015 1:00 am

Jaivl wrote:Still hasn't changed.


Yeah, my list's quite different from yours, but I've seen nothing these playoffs to make me switch anyone around.

1. Curry
2. Paul
3. Davis
4. Harden
5. LeBron

Kawhi still has an outside shot at #5, but it's all but impossible the way James played in G1 if it keeps up. Griffin now has not shot at top 5. Seriously doubting anyone but Curry has a legitimate shot at 1.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#515 » by Ballerhogger » Fri May 22, 2015 2:46 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:My top 5 will be announced after the finals .


Just need to make sure this is clear to you and to everyone else:

Me counting your vote is contingent on your participation in the discussion. I'm not looking to be a jerk about it if people get busy for a while during the playoffs, and you certainly don't need to give your Top 5 ahead of time, but this is a message board and our stickied projects exist to generate message-based interactions. You should have an intent to share your thoughts and read others thoughts along the way if you want to join in, as that's what "joining in" really means.

Well ok I'm looking for Curry as my number one right now
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#516 » by Ballerhogger » Fri May 22, 2015 2:50 am

PaulieWal wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:My top 5 will be announced after the finals .


What's your top 5 right now? Maybe it will spur some good discussion :). This thread would be no fun if we all waited until the Finals.

As of right now i got
Curry
Davis
Harden
Westbrook
Lebron James
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#517 » by RSCD3_ » Fri May 22, 2015 3:43 am

Harden outplayed curry tonight.

And then he costs them the game.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#518 » by PaulieWal » Fri May 22, 2015 3:48 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Harden outplayed curry tonight.

And then he costs them the game.


I don't think he outplayed him per se. Harden was great and I would say the best player on the floor but Curry was damn good too. So far both have had a great first 2 games.
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#519 » by theonlyclutch » Fri May 22, 2015 3:54 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Harden outplayed curry tonight.

And then he costs them the game.


28/9/11 and 38/9/10 in back-to-back series games.....he's pulling a Lebron here..
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Re: All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread 

Post#520 » by RSCD3_ » Fri May 22, 2015 3:59 am

PaulieWal wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:Harden outplayed curry tonight.

And then he costs them the game.


I don't think he outplayed him per se. Harden was great and I would say the best player on the floor but Curry was damn good too. So far both have had a great first 2 games.


I don't know harden had 9 assists vs 2 turnovers and curry had 6 of each.

5 more points on the same relative TS%
Curry was -7, harden was +12
Harden had 4 steals/blocks, curry had 1

I'm not saying it's by a huge margin but I felt like Harden had the better game.
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