John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III

[Ruzious]

Curry, Harden, Paul and Westbrook all definitely rank ahead of Wall. Wall had no chance of making the 2nd team or 1st team. For 3rd team, it was between Wall, Irving, Thompson, Korver, Teague, Butler and Conley. I would have gone with Wall and Butler.

The Cleveland Cavaliers went 2-8 in the 10 games that Irving played and James missed. That's all I need to know to know that Irving isn't as good as Wall. (In all those games they also had Kevin Love.)

Yeah, it has come time to include Harden in the point guards discussion. He runs their offense and even brings the ball up for the Rockets. He's just behind Lebron in the ability to be great at multiple positions.

[DCZards]

I remember Dat2U also pointing out that Teague gets a huge boost out of the floor spacing provided by Atlanta, and I agree. Give Wall Horford and Millsap on his front line and Wall would put up better numbers than Teague.

I agree in large part (not the shooting part, though -- at least not yet), BUT All-NBA is awarded for what guys have actually done, not what they might do if everyone had good floor spacing and got to play with Horford and Millsap.

Stats don't include a built in formula for context and that's why one must be able to see the circumstances around a particular player so one can truly assess the impact or importance of that player.

Without context, stats are basically worthless numbers that can tell you Hassan Whiteside is more productive than LeBron James (according to PER) or Cody Zeller helps his team more than Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, John Wall & LaMarcus Aldridge (Real Plus Minus) to name a few.

Jeff Teague can't hold Wall's jock strap IMO. I don't really care what the stats say. And I expect smart GMs would feel the same way .

I was about to post a similar response. I’m a known agnostic when it comes to stats. There’s definitely a role and place for them and some on this board, like TSW, do an excellent job of keeping the rest of us educated and informed of players’ strengths and abilities based on the stats.

But stats rarely, if ever, tell the whole story and that’s certainly the case when it comes to matchups like Wall and Teague…or even Wall and Irving. If you’re talking about PG play and the ability to impact the game in multiple ways (passing, scoring, rebounding, defending, toughness) guys like Teague and Irving can’t touch JW, imo.

This may be the homer in me speaking….but I think many NBA GM’s would agree.

Edit to add: But I do like Teague's game. He's got that heady, deliberate style of play that reminds me of Andre Miller.

[AFM]

I remember Dat2U also pointing out that Teague gets a huge boost out of the floor spacing provided by Atlanta, and I agree. Give Wall Horford and Millsap on his front line and Wall would put up better numbers than Teague.

I agree in large part (not the shooting part, though -- at least not yet), BUT All-NBA is awarded for what guys have actually done, not what they might do if everyone had good floor spacing and got to play with Horford and Millsap.

Stats don't include a built in formula for context and that's why one must be able to see the circumstances around a particular player so one can truly assess the impact or importance of that player.

Without context, stats are basically worthless numbers that can tell you Hassan Whiteside is more productive than LeBron James (according to PER) or Cody Zeller helps his team more than Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, John Wall & LaMarcus Aldridge (Real Plus Minus) to name a few.

Jeff Teague can't hold Wall's jock strap IMO. I don't really care what the stats say. And I expect smart GMs would feel the same way .

This...

[TheSecretWeapon]

We're heading into a conversation we've had many, many times. I understand what folks are saying in support of Wall, but I don't think folks are fully considering Wall's negatives -- specifically, the missed shots and turnovers. Those count too.

I look forward to the day when Wall's production matches his reputation.

[Dat2U]

We're heading into a conversation we've had many, many times. I understand what folks are saying in support of Wall, but I don't think folks are fully considering Wall's negatives -- specifically, the missed shots and turnovers. Those count too.

I look forward to the day when Wall's production matches his reputation.

I think this more about the limitations of stats in general than a player's reputation being outsized. I'm sure if you ran numbers to suggest what the Wizards record would be if you replaced Wall with a replacement level player on paper, the Wizards would still be a 35+ win team and right on the edge of the Eastern Conference playoffs. In reality if you replaced Wall with a replacement level player, more than likely, the bottom falls out and were a 20 win team competing for lottery balls.

Stats will tell you coaching doesn't make a big difference in terms of wins & losses overall. Apparently irregardless of what rotations, lineups or offensive system a coach employs. Yet in the playoffs, when Randy Wittman finally adjusts and plays rotations & lineups many have been calling for all year... we become a completely different team in the 5 games Wall played before breaking his hand/wrist.

Stats lie... mainly because there's still so much they DON'T tell us. We can only infer a players impact or productivity based on what the stats indicate. That certaintly doesn't mean we should taking them at face value as is too often the case among fans, media & stat goobers. It means we need to use the stats as a puzzle pieces in connection with other observations to build a clearer picture of a player's true impact. That means looking at their specific role, their teammates, how their being used in relation to their skillset... basically any & everything that stats can't consider.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Like I said -- a discussion we've had MANY times. Stats tells us WAY more than what you're suggesting. But, nobody is convincing anyone of anything today, so I'll save us all a bunch of typing and simply agree to disagree.

And hope Wall reduces his turnovers and continues to improve his shooting.

[tontoz]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

[DCZards]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Trade the useless bum.

[tontoz]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Trade the useless bum.

Missed shots and turnovers are still problems and it isn't hating on him to acknowlege that. He had a lot of both in the playoffs.

But i am sure prospective free agents took note of his gaudy assist numbers.

[DCZards]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Trade the useless bum.

Missed shots and turnovers are still problems and it isn't hating on him to acknowlege that. He had a lot of both in the playoffs.

But i am sure prospective free agents took note of his gaudy assist numbers.

I'm sure free agents also took note of Wall toughing it out and playing with a fractured wrist for 2 plus game, which, btw, may have impacted his shooting and ballhandling (turnovers).

[dckingsfan]

Code: Select all

Season      Age  TS%    TRB%   AST%   TOV%   AST%/TO% Ratio
2010-2011   20   0.494   6.9   36.0   18.6   1.94
2011-2012   21   0.502   7.1   36.9   19.2   1.92
2012-2013   22   0.521   6.8   43.9   15.3   2.87
2013-2014   23   0.524   6.5   40.5   16.3   2.48
2014-2015   24   0.523   7.3   46.3   18.7   2.48


His assist/to ratio is holding (and quite good). Walls' TS% isn't going up - and that is a problem - and keeping him out of the top 3 conversation. He ranks about 50th for guards under 6'5" and that really isn't good. Somehow he needs to figure that part out...

[Dat2U]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Im sure the broken bones had no impact on his efficiency those last two games. Again stats mean nothing without context.

[tontoz]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Im sure the broken bones had no impact on his efficiency those last two games. Again stats mean nothing without context.

Wall shot 39% against the Raps, 27% from 3. Pretty sure his hand wasn't broken then. Wall shot even worse in last years playoffs.

For the regular season Wall's TS of 52% tied him with Jack (who you have criticized for being a low efficiency scorer) and Jennings.

Wall has had problems with missed shots/turnovers his whole career.

[dckingsfan]

Wall's TS in the playoffs was 48% which is just bad. Seems like playing with Pierce/Gooden at the 4 helped his assists but not his shooting. Small sample obviously.

Im sure the broken bones had no impact on his efficiency those last two games. Again stats mean nothing without context.

Wall shot 39% against the Raps, 27% from 3. Pretty sure his hand wasn't broken then. Wall shot even worse in last years playoffs.

For the regular season Wall's TS of 52% tied him with Jack (who you have criticized for being a low efficiency scorer) and Jennings.

Wall has had problems with missed shots/turnovers his whole career.

It seems like he has figured out playing with pace, gotten better on D. Maybe this is the year of the shot.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Wall has improved significantly as a pro. That's evident "just watching" and it's evident in my metric, and in others. In my view, the quality of Wall's play hasn't caught up to the accolades...yet. I think he's just outside All-NBA level. But, I think he'll get there. He's 24. His best days are still ahead of him.

[hands11]

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/hca/05/18/the-list-top-10-players-to-start-a-franchise-with/


The List: Top 10 players to start a franchise with

By Joe Boozell, Special to NBA.com
POSTED: May 18, 2015 10:55 AM ET

10. John Wall

If Wall had returned a few games earlier from his left hand injury, who knows where the Wizards would be right now? What makes this guard with blazing speed so special is his ability to make his teammates better -- he led all playoff point guards in assists per game at 11.9 -- and he's clearly shed his reputation as nothing more than a physical specimen. He's transformed into one of the best all-around point guards in the game.

Plus, he's just 24 years old. Any front office executive would be happy to pencil Wall into their starting lineup at point guard for the next 10 years.

[Dark Faze]

I can't include Kawhi on the list until he's on his own. Very nice player, but he hasn't proven he can be a 1A in the way that Paul George has. I'm sure he's capable of it, but yea.

I'd put Paul in front of Griffin and I'd put Wall in front of Griffin also. I feel like Griffin brings a lot to the table but he's not someone I'd want to start a franchise with.

[Shanghai Kid]

Wall needs to stay super motivated and super hungry, so I think missing out on an All-NBA team might be a positive. Work on that efficiency young man!

[DCZards]

I can't include Kawhi on the list until he's on his own. Very nice player, but he hasn't proven he can be a 1A in the way that Paul George has. I'm sure he's capable of it, but yea.

I'd put Paul in front of Griffin and I'd put Wall in front of Griffin also. I feel like Griffin brings a lot to the table but he's not someone I'd want to start a franchise with.

Agree on Kawhi. Love his game but not sure he's the kind of talent you can build a team around.

I'd probably take Griffin off the list entirely...and replace him with LeMarcus Aldridge.

[DCZards]

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/hca/05/18/the-list-top-10-players-to-start-a-franchise-with/


The List: Top 10 players to start a franchise with

By Joe Boozell, Special to NBA.com
POSTED: May 18, 2015 10:55 AM ET

10. John Wall

If Wall had returned a few games earlier from his left hand injury, who knows where the Wizards would be right now? What makes this guard with blazing speed so special is his ability to make his teammates better -- he led all playoff point guards in assists per game at 11.9 -- and he's clearly shed his reputation as nothing more than a physical specimen. He's transformed into one of the best all-around point guards in the game.

Plus, he's just 24 years old. Any front office executive would be happy to pencil Wall into their starting lineup at point guard for the next 10 years.

Quite a distinction for Wall to make the list. Only three other PGs ahead of him (Curry, Westbrook, Paul)...the three guys we all acknowledge are definitely better than JW.